naihanchi/tekki

[OkinawaPeichin]

Sure.

You show up early for hojo undo, kotekitae, and makiwara practice. Without prior permission, you are not permitted to attend class unless you came early for this.

Actual class lasts 2.5 hours and starts with a 20 minute bow in and warmup/stretching. Next, sanchin kata is performed multiple times with shime and corrections by Sensei. Then kihon practice usually lasts for 30-40 minutes. Sensei is obsessive about correct form when blocking and punching, and this is one of the best segments of practice since he frequently shows where each strike and block should be targeted with someone as uke.

This usually leaves an hour left of class that is spent on kata, kiso kumite and bunkai practice, takedowns and joint locking, kobudo, and occasionally free sparring. Usually Sensei picks 2, rarely 3 of these topics to cover during the last hour. Whatever the theme, you are expected to practice whatever fine point he demonstrated during kihon in your kata practice, etc, although he is certainly offering additional corrections during this time.

We always end class with another 3 repetitions of Sanchin (usually no shime) before a quick cool down and bow out.

I see. So there isn't a "Hey Sensei let's work on this timei" ?:wink2:

 

[stoneheart]

Hah, hah.

In all seriousness, I wouldn't dare ask him to change his lesson plan midstream, but I would and have asked him to focus something I feel a little lacking in, and he's been willing to accomodate me.

 

[ppko]

regarding this kata, Isshin ryu style teaches that master Shimabuku combined what he preceived as the best techniques of the 3 katas to form the Naihanchi kata used in Isshin ryu. our history of the original kata has Tode Sakugawa teaching Soken Matsumora. it is said that Choki motobu performed this kata hundreds of times a day. also do not know if any one out there has ever heard that this kata is a good kata for ground fighting. i read some where before, but do not know where, that it's excellent when on your back, on the ground and someone is trying to mount you or has mounted you. be interested if any one has ever tried using the moves from this kata in that situation.

Naihanchi is great on the ground it is also great while in the mount position this is why I love the kata it is so diverse

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

regarding this kata, Isshin ryu style teaches that master Shimabuku combined what he preceived as the best techniques of the 3 katas to form the Naihanchi kata used in Isshin ryu. our history of the original kata has Tode Sakugawa teaching Soken Matsumora. it is said that Choki motobu performed this kata hundreds of times a day. also do not know if any one out there has ever heard that this kata is a good kata for ground fighting. i read some where before, but do not know where, that it's excellent when on your back, on the ground and someone is trying to mount you or has mounted you. be interested if any one has ever tried using the moves from this kata in that situation.

My teacher mentioned this fact several years ago to me. When I didn't believe him he quickly showed me. I later read some of my teacher's old posts on another website where he discussed this.
My teacher often teaches some of the military combatives classes which emphasize ground work. Good stuff and very practical.

 

[chinto]

I did a little reaserch and from what I found out all 3 of the Neihanchi kata are atributed to have Originated from Bushi Matsumura. Now I know that that is from oral history as there are not any real writen records from that time... but some one earler did atribute the Naihanchi Ni Dan and San Dan to Anku Itosu. I Must at this time respectfully disigree enless some one can furnish some infermation I could not find.

 

[TimoS]

Master Kyan tought the three Neihanchi kata

Actually, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi kata. My friend, who is quite well versed in history, just confirmed this and told me that this has been asked also from Joen Nakazato and he has confirmed it. Yes, the Naifanchi kata appear in many Shorin(ji) schools of Kyan's lineage, e.g. in Seibukan, but they were brought in there by Chozo Nakama, a friend of the Shimabukuro family. I don't know where they come from in Shobayashi (but if I'd have to guess, I'd say Tatsuo Shimabukuro), but it can't be from Kyan

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

I did a little reaserch and from what I found out all 3 of the Neihanchi kata are atributed to have Originated from Bushi Matsumura. Now I know that that is from oral history as there are not any real writen records from that time... but some one earler did atribute the Naihanchi Ni Dan and San Dan to Anku Itosu. I Must at this time respectfully disigree enless some one can furnish some infermation I could not find.

Can I ask where you got this information?

 

[punisher73]

Actually, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi kata. My friend, who is quite well versed in history, just confirmed this and told me that this has been asked also from Joen Nakazato and he has confirmed it. Yes, the Naifanchi kata appear in many Shorin(ji) schools of Kyan's lineage, e.g. in Seibukan, but they were brought in there by Chozo Nakama, a friend of the Shimabukuro family. I don't know where they come from in Shobayashi (but if I'd have to guess, I'd say Tatsuo Shimabukuro), but it can't be from Kyan

I know that prior to developing Isshinryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku spent about a year studying with Choki Motobu who was famous for his Naihanchi. Also, Isshinryu's version starts to the left just as Motobu's did. So that might be where he learned it. I had originally heard that Tatsuo learned it from Kyan, but if that is not the case he must have learned it from Motobu.

 

[chinto]

Can I ask where you got this information?

yes several articals by Kyoshi Gould and also from a search engine search. I also asked my sensei and was told the same.

 

[chinto]

I know that prior to developing Isshinryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku spent about a year studying with Choki Motobu who was famous for his Naihanchi. Also, Isshinryu's version starts to the left just as Motobu's did. So that might be where he learned it. I had originally heard that Tatsuo learned it from Kyan, but if that is not the case he must have learned it from Motobu.

well our Neihanchi kata start to the right.. so I dont think it came from Motobu from what you say. My guess is he learned them from either Bushi Matsumura as Kyoshi Gould said in his artical or from one of the few other instructors Kyan had. Matsomura perhaps? As far as I know Ezio Shimubukuro learned his kata mainly from Kyan , chojin Miyagi and a little from Motobu. but our Naihanchi open to the right and not the left, and you did say motobu opened his version to the left?

 

[punisher73]

but our Naihanchi open to the right and not the left, and you did say motobu opened his version to the left?Today 01:23 AM

Yes, I have a video of Chosei Motobu (Choki's son) performing Naihanchi shodan and nidan, along with the 12 kumite techniques his father taught.

The isshinryu version goes to the left as well, at least all the ones I have seen. I'm not sure if any other styles go to the left either. Not really a big thing since it is mirrored on both sides.

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

yes several articals by Kyoshi Gould and also from a search engine search. I also asked my sensei and was told the same.

I have never heard of Mr. Gould. Does he have some background that would qualify him has being knowledgeable in Okinawan Karate History?

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

well our Neihanchi kata start to the right.. so I dont think it came from Motobu from what you say. My guess is he learned them from either Bushi Matsumura as Kyoshi Gould said in his artical or from one of the few other instructors Kyan had. Matsomura perhaps? As far as I know Ezio Shimubukuro learned his kata mainly from Kyan , chojin Miyagi and a little from Motobu. but our Naihanchi open to the right and not the left, and you did say motobu opened his version to the left?

Motobu went both directions, both starting to the left and to the right.

 

[punisher73]

Motobu went both directions, both starting to the left and to the right.

I thought I had heard/read that somewhere, but I couldn't remember so I didn't want to toss that out there.

 

[chinto]

I have never heard of Mr. Gould. Does he have some background that would qualify him has being knowledgeable in Okinawan Karate History?

yes sir he does,
Kyoshi Gould is the chief instructor for the shobayashi shorin ryu system in the USA. He studied for years under Hanchi Ezio Shimubukuro and holds the title Kyoshi and is a Nana Dan who has studied the history of the system and karate in genreal for meany years.

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

yes sir he does,
Kyoshi Gould is the chief instructor for the shobayashi shorin ryu system in the USA. He studied for years under Hanchi Ezio Shimubukuro and holds the title Kyoshi and is a Nana Dan who has studied the history of the system and karate in genreal for meany years.

Sorry, what does "chief instructor" mean or entail? Is he the sole representative for that style in the US? If so who appointed him?

"Hanchi Ezio Shimubukuro"? I think you mean "HanShi" and "ShimAbukuro".

Is this the same "shimabukuro" lineage that the founder claimed he learned certain techniques from a mermaid?

Can you verify where he studied karate history?

 

[TimoS]

Is this the same "shimabukuro" lineage that the founder claimed he learned certain techniques from a mermaid?

Kind of, yes. You're talking about his older brother, Tatsuo Shimabukuro, who according to legend got the inspiration for Isshin ryu in a dream. The mermaid or whatever it was appeared in his dream. And Tatsuo Shimabukuro was (one of) Eizo Shimabukuro's teacher(s). Eizo Shimabukuro himself says he was taught by e.g. Kyan, while others are saying that he learned his karate from his brother. Apparently there are differences between the brothers' styles, but as I've never seen either style in action, I can't say for sure

 

[chinto]

Sorry, what does "chief instructor" mean or entail? Is he the sole representative for that style in the US? If so who appointed him?

"Hanchi Ezio Shimubukuro"? I think you mean "HanShi" and "ShimAbukuro".

Is this the same "shimabukuro" lineage that the founder claimed he learned certain techniques from a mermaid?

Can you verify where he studied karate history?

no Shimabukuro.. sorry for the typo, is the younger brother to the founder of Isshin ryu. he was the top student of HanShi Kyan... as to cheif instructor it means he is or at least was the primary person for Eizo Shimabukuro to go to for his orginazation for the style ( the association) to document rank and maintain the standerds of the style as tought in the United States of Amarica.

He studied it in okinawa and here while studing karate and requires all student to learn the linage and history of the style to a resonably high level. Unlike some styles who if you ask them the history or linage they have no clue and will tell you so.

I was informed I may have mistakenly given the impression that I thought Motobu might have tought the Naihanchi kata to Osensei. If so I do apoligize. My intention was to aknowledge that it was a posiblity but as far as I know HanShi Eizo Shimabukuro learned all his kata except seianchin and sanchin kata from Chotoku Kyan. the kata Naihanchi shodan, Naihanchi Ni Dan and Naihanchi San Dan are part of the system of shobayashi shorin ryu and as far as I know were learned from Master ( hanShi JuDan) Kyan.

 

[chinto]

Kind of, yes. You're talking about his older brother, Tatsuo Shimabukuro, who according to legend got the inspiration for Isshin ryu in a dream. The mermaid or whatever it was appeared in his dream. And Tatsuo Shimabukuro was (one of) Eizo Shimabukuro's teacher(s). Eizo Shimabukuro himself says he was taught by e.g. Kyan, while others are saying that he learned his karate from his brother. Apparently there are differences between the brothers' styles, but as I've never seen either style in action, I can't say for sure

I think he may have trained with his brother Tatsuo when they both were students of Master Kyan... I am not awear of him sighting him as one of his instructors really, though it certianly is posible if not provable to a point, as an older brother would provably pass on some of his training to a younger brother if asked. but I would say tht at that time he was most provably a student of Kyan when that would have happend. It would not have been after he started Isshin ryu ( the style that Tatsuo Shimabukuro started )

 

[TimoS]

the kata Naihanchi shodan, Naihanchi Ni Dan and Naihanchi San Dan are part of the system of shobayashi shorin ryu and as far as I know were learned from Master ( hanShi JuDan) Kyan.

First and foremost of all: Kyan was most certainly not a judan, not even a shodan! He simply didn't have any rank! The ranks that people hold/held came after second world war, and by that time Kyan was already dead

And second, like I said previously, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi/Naihanci/how ever you want to spell it. Joen Nakazato, the founder Shorinji ryu Kyudokan and a student Kyan has confirmed this. If Kyan had taught those kata, why would Seibukan take them from elsewhere? Zenryo Shimabukuro didn't teach those, but his son Zenpo does and he learned them Chozo Nakama.

edit: Also, in Shorinji ryu Kyudokan, there is only one Naifanchi kata. Not entirely sure which, but I'm guessing Naifanchi shodan (I think I'll confirm that from guys who have visited Nakazato)