naihanchi/tekki

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

I think that Naihanchi is a great Kata to start students off with as it conditions the legs ie the constant horse stance, and it also has great use of hip techniques. Also it does show diverse techniques as discussed earlier as it does also involve grappling techniques.
The school where I study in our syllabus you must first learn Fukyugata Ichi and Ni and all 5 Pinan before being taught Naihanchi, though I personally like to teach it earlier on for the reasons I stated.
I believe that all Katas have a lot of diversity and all need time and effort to be taught and to be learned.

 

[ppko]

well that is very cool that htey are excited and looking at bunkai for the kata! I guess I got the impression that you did not teach other kata some how.. that seemed kinda strange, but it was what it sounded like to me..

Well originally I was only going to teach the Naihanchi which is the way I started this thread. I now have included tomari bassai, wansu and seisan just so my students can choose which kata will best fit there needs

 

[chinto]

Well originally I was only going to teach the Naihanchi which is the way I started this thread. I now have included tomari bassai, wansu and seisan just so my students can choose which kata will best fit there needs

um, if it is the 'Tamari te verson of passai, then it would be Passai and not Bassai.... as Tamari Te is Okinawan and not Shotokan.... :asian:

um just a point of termonoligy order.... tamari-te was before the term bassai..... :asian:

 

[ppko]

I was doing Passai then I had people that wasnt understanding so I changed to bassai lol and it is tomari but thank you

 

[chinto]

I was doing Passai then I had people that wasnt understanding so I changed to bassai lol and it is tomari but thank you

LOL ok I just wanted to be more prosise as there are real diferences in the kata. but I do understand.

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

I think using only Naihanchi for your requirements is far too limiting. While it is true that the old masters likely only knew a few kata, I think modern students want and need more stimulation to keep their attention.

Naihanchi contains no yokogeri. Does this mean you don't teach yokogeri at all?

In the Marine Corps. we were always taught to do more with less. I think Naihanchi exemplifies this attitude. When I was stationed in Okinawa I did several martial arts and karate was one of them. I was taught Naihanchi but most of I was taught seemed pretty basic that is until I had the good fortune to meet and train with my present teacher. My eyes were opened to a whole new level and I gained the up most respect for what at first seemed like a short uncomplicated kata.
I can recall when my present teacher showed me some of the applications from Naiahnchi. I began to see why the old masters revered this kata.

I have a question. Since when do students dictate what is being taught to them? I was always were under the impression they were there to learn what was taught not tell the teacher what to teach. I guess if the teacher has in depth knowledge and something of value to teach then this isn’t a problem though and they will feel challenged enough to not get bored.

 

[harlan]

Depends on the student and the teacher. There is the idea that training and learning isn't something locked into a set curriculum...but a dynamic process that happens between people. Sure, have an overall curriculum...but modified to best suit the student's needs. But then go from there. 'What do you want to do/learn now? No ideas? No questions...go home.'

I have a question. Since when do students dictate what is being taught to them? I was always were under the impression they were there to learn what was taught not tell the teacher what to teach. I guess if the teacher has in depth knowledge and something of value to teach then this isn’t a problem though and they will feel challenged enough to not get bored.

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

Depends on the student and the teacher. There is the idea that training and learning isn't something locked into a set curriculum...but a dynamic process that happens between people. Sure, have an overall curriculum...but modified to best suit the student's needs. But then go from there. 'What do you want to do/learn now? No ideas? No questions...go home.'

With that attitude I doubt you would last long in a real Okinawan or Japanese dojo.

 

[harlan]

Probably right.

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

Probably right.

Since your profile is extremely vague and only lists "kobudo" could you tell us what it is you train in and perhaps how long and from whom you have studied?
Just curious...

 

[stoneheart]

With that attitude I doubt you would last long in a real Okinawan or Japanese dojo.

Apparently Okinawans and Japanese wouldn't last in those dojos either, since I understand study of the martial arts has been in decline in both islands for years...

Best to be inclusive rather than exclusive, I think.

 

[baron]

regarding this kata, Isshin ryu style teaches that master Shimabuku combined what he preceived as the best techniques of the 3 katas to form the Naihanchi kata used in Isshin ryu. our history of the original kata has Tode Sakugawa teaching Soken Matsumora. it is said that Choki motobu performed this kata hundreds of times a day. also do not know if any one out there has ever heard that this kata is a good kata for ground fighting. i read some where before, but do not know where, that it's excellent when on your back, on the ground and someone is trying to mount you or has mounted you. be interested if any one has ever tried using the moves from this kata in that situation.

 

[chinto]

In the Marine Corps. we were always taught to do more with less. I think Naihanchi exemplifies this attitude. When I was stationed in Okinawa I did several martial arts and karate was one of them. I was taught Naihanchi but most of I was taught seemed pretty basic that is until I had the good fortune to meet and train with my present teacher. My eyes were opened to a whole new level and I gained the up most respect for what at first seemed like a short uncomplicated kata.
I can recall when my present teacher showed me some of the applications from Naiahnchi. I began to see why the old masters revered this kata.

I have a question. Since when do students dictate what is being taught to them? I was always were under the impression they were there to learn what was taught not tell the teacher what to teach. I guess if the teacher has in depth knowledge and something of value to teach then this isn’t a problem though and they will feel challenged enough to not get bored.

at least to a greater extent I have to agree with that. The Sensei is there to teach and the student to learn. Now sometimes there may be an enphisis requested by the student, but in general you are there to learn and the sensei to teach.

 

[chinto]

regarding this kata, Isshin ryu style teaches that master Shimabuku combined what he preceived as the best techniques of the 3 katas to form the Naihanchi kata used in Isshin ryu. our history of the original kata has Tode Sakugawa teaching Soken Matsumora. it is said that Choki motobu performed this kata hundreds of times a day. also do not know if any one out there has ever heard that this kata is a good kata for ground fighting. i read some where before, but do not know where, that it's excellent when on your back, on the ground and someone is trying to mount you or has mounted you. be interested if any one has ever tried using the moves from this kata in that situation.

Interesting as his younger Brother Ezio Shimubukuro, who trained under Master Kyan just as his older brother Tatsu who founded Isshin ryu also studied under Kyan, and Master Kyan tought the three Neihanchi kata. I Know this becouse I am a student of Shobayashi Shorin ryu and it teaches now as Kyan tought the three Niahanchi kata. .. I have to wonder why Tastu Shimubukuro changed things that way. I would think you have lost some things myself.

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

Apparently Okinawans and Japanese wouldn't last in those dojos either, since I understand study of the martial arts has been in decline in both islands for years...

Best to be inclusive rather than exclusive, I think.

Isn't part of training to better yourself? Why lower the bar to include everyone instead of empowering them and have them come up to meet the bar.

Since I don't know you I can't tell if you are trying to be funny or
not. I'll take a chance and guess that you're not.

So to reply to your comment about "Okinawans and Japanese not lasting
in those dojos as well". Okinawans and Japanese tend to be more
serious & respectful to the martial arts teachers than their western
counter parts. Therefore they tend to not act like spoiled brats or
cry babies in the dojo demanding that the class be "entertaining" so
they don't get "bored".
This is where the adage "Nintai" comes in to training. Nintai meaning
to preserve or stick it out, even if it's not "entertaining". I think
the west could benefit from this attitude and possibly take a more
Spartan approach to training.
There are no air conditioners or heaters in Okinawan/Japanese dojos so
if it's hot outside it's hot inside and if it's cold outside it's cold
inside. And it does get hot and humid in Okinawa. This isn't meant as
a torture of some kind but it's meant to strengthen the spirit and to
build an attitude that can tolerate adversity. Unfortunately this is
something I see lacking in many or most of my western martial arts
brethren.
I have an American friend that trained in the same dojo as I did down
in Okinawa and recall visiting his dojo back in the US once. I saw
several of his students waltz in carrying a Starbucks Frappacinos
(Coffe Milkshake), food and talking on their cell phones. This kind of
behavior is unacceptable in Okinawan/Japanese dojos and shows great
disrespect to the members of the dojo that are there to train. You are
there to train not to have a picnic. Dojos are not only for training
your body but also the spirit.
I talked to him about it later asking him what our sensei back in
Okinawa would say. He said Sensei would have thought he failed as a
teacher if we showed him that much disrespect. I asked him why he
tolerated it and he said that this is the US and you have to give the
"customer" what they want. He said it's more like babysitting than
martial arts training. I felt sorry for him that he has to deal with
people that lack that much spirit.
I think this is why I like my present teacher so much. Even though he
is an American he teaches just like my Okinawan/Japanese teachers do.

 

[stoneheart]

OkinawaPeichin,

I train under a traditional Okinawan Karate sensei myself, and I value the old ways, but I do think you're being a bit over the top with your remarks about Okinawan and Japanese students. Yes, their culture is different and students there are more likely to understand the expectations of a traditional dojo over there. No surprise there. But, let's not ignore the fact that martial arts participation has been declining over there for years. That's no coincidence either - it really does seem like young Okinawans and Japanese are finding other things to occupy their free time with, like American Idol perhaps?

Back to my original point. There's nothing wrong with a student telling his sensei what he would like to learn or work on. This might not fly in the 'old country' with an old school teacher, but we're talking about America after all. Karate and its teaching paradigms have inevitably changed as it has taken root in the United States. You can choose to train the way you want to. Others can do what they want to as well. So long as their martial arts is good and strong, who are we to complain about it?

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

OkinawaPeichin,

I train under a traditional Okinawan Karate sensei myself, and I value the old ways, but I do think you're being a bit over the top with your remarks about Okinawan and Japanese students. Yes, their culture is different and students there are more likely to understand the expectations of a traditional dojo over there. No surprise there. But, let's not ignore the fact that martial arts participation has been declining over there for years. That's no coincidence either - it really does seem like young Okinawans and Japanese are finding other things to occupy their free time with, like American Idol perhaps?

Back to my original point. There's nothing wrong with a student telling his sensei what he would like to learn or work on. This might not fly in the 'old country' with an old school teacher, but we're talking about America after all. Karate and its teaching paradigms have inevitably changed as it has taken root in the United States. You can choose to train the way you want to. Others can do what they want to as well. So long as their martial arts is good and strong, who are we to complain about it?

Where was this Traditional Okinawan Dojo you trained in? The US? Okinawa? Who did you train with?

You seem to have over simplified my point.
I think it’s fine if students ask questions but I don’t agree that students should dictate what should be taught.

As for karate declining in popularity in Okinawa and Japan, well it may have something to do with a shrinking population of young people as well as introduction of other sports into the country. However the same things seem to be happening in the west.
By the way, American Idol doesn’t air over here. Thank God.

Regarding your last paragraph. I don’t think students dictating what is to be taught in class has improved or produced “strong” karateka. I think it has produced McDojos.

 

[stoneheart]

Where was this Traditional Okinawan Dojo you trained in? The US? Okinawa? Who did you train with?

Normally, I wouldn't have a problem answering this question. However you seem to be calling my credentials into question. I see no reason to get into a lineage p****ing match with you when I am merely stating my opinion as you are.

You seem to have over simplified my point.
I think it’s fine if students ask questions but I don’t agree that students should dictate what should be taught.

Well, I disagree. I see nothing wrong with discretely asking your sensei to teach a class on a certain kata, or asking him to focus more on body training, etc. In the end, it's your training after all. YOU must take responsibility for it.

As for karate declining in popularity in Okinawa and Japan, well it may have something to do with a shrinking population of young people as well as introduction of other sports into the country. However the same things seem to be happening in the west.
By the way, American Idol doesn’t air over here. Thank God.

From speaking to a recent emigre, I had understood karate to be a declining art for some time now due to pure popularity. Yes, there's other activities to choose from now, but there's an undercurrent of feeling that karate is 'old and useless'. His words, not mine. By the way, the same emigre said karate in America is getting better all the time with all the high quality instruction Americans are receiving from either native instructors that have moved to North America or from regular contact with Japan and Okinawa. The advent of the internet has also allow masses of students to realize there is more to karate than simple punch/kick practice and this in turn has caused them to seek out more advanced instruction. I am certainly in this second group.

Regarding your last paragraph. I don’t think students dictating what is to be taught in class has improved or produced “strong” karateka. I think it has produced McDojos.

Any action has both 'good' and 'bad' outcomes resulting from it. The point I am trying to make is that perhaps you are over-romanticizing Okinawans and Japanese students. In the end, they are just people like anyone else.

The funny thing is that we're probably not too far apart if we could see how each of us train in person.

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

Normally, I wouldn't have a problem answering this question. However you seem to be calling my credentials into question. I see no reason to get into a lineage p****ing match with you when I am merely stating my opinion as you are.

You’re being over sensitive. I was just curious. If you would rather not post that info then I understand.

The point I am trying to make is that perhaps you are over-romanticizing Okinawans and Japanese students. In the end, they are just people like anyone else.

Having actually trained in dojo in Okianwa and the US and seen first hand the types of students in each I can assure you I am not “over-romanticizing”.

The funny thing is that we're probably not too far apart if we could see how each of us train in person.

So can you share with us a typical training session?

 

[stoneheart]

So can you share with us a typical training session?

Sure.

You show up early for hojo undo, kotekitae, and makiwara practice. Without prior permission, you are not permitted to attend class unless you came early for this.

Actual class lasts 2.5 hours and starts with a 20 minute bow in and warmup/stretching. Next, sanchin kata is performed multiple times with shime and corrections by Sensei. Then kihon practice usually lasts for 30-40 minutes. Sensei is obsessive about correct form when blocking and punching, and this is one of the best segments of practice since he frequently shows where each strike and block should be targeted with someone as uke.

This usually leaves an hour left of class that is spent on kata, kiso kumite and bunkai practice, takedowns and joint locking, kobudo, and occasionally free sparring. Usually Sensei picks 2, rarely 3 of these topics to cover during the last hour. Whatever the theme, you are expected to practice whatever fine point he demonstrated during kihon in your kata practice, etc, although he is certainly offering additional corrections during this time.

We always end class with another 3 repetitions of Sanchin (usually no shime) before a quick cool down and bow out.