My intense citizens arrest

[Steve]

That's pretty much how it works in the USA, too. One difference is that retailers typically are instructed NOT to call the police unless they've been told to by their loss prevention staff.

Another big difference is that most external theft (ie, not employee theft) is professional and well organized. Organized retail crime is a huge problem. These are often large groups of people hitting multiple stores at varying locations in an area often at the same time. They tend to work in groups of three or more, and their tactics are often very similar to as described in the article. They will take turns distracting the staff while the others will literally empty shelves. Once out, they will be out of the mall and off the property within minutes and on to another location. They're bold and very sophisticated.

 

[Empty Hands]

They will take turns distracting the staff while the others will literally empty shelves. Once out, they will be out of the mall and off the property within minutes and on to another location. They're bold and very sophisticated.

My wife managed a Blockbuster for a few years. She said they would occasionally get groups of young men who would openly walk into the store with large bags, clear shelves right into the bags, and openly walk out. Another of her co-workers was killed in a robbery after the robber told him to take him into the back and open the safe. Glad she got out of it.

 

[Tanaka]

I see nothing done wrong here. If he pushed down an 80year old lady... he has already shown what lengths he is willing to go/take for his own gain, and doesn't need to be running around. Needs to be locked up. Scum is scum to me. As far as bloodmoney, I am not going to put him down for doing what he thought was right. Human beings have different morale, and I cannot say anything wrong about someones choices of what they think is right.(Unless it's actually causing more harm, than benefiting.)
Some people look at this chase being the cause for the man stiff arming the old lady and knocking her out. I think it takes an evil man to stiff arm an innocent old lady in the first place, rather than realizing that he is harming people and should stop running.

 

[BloodMoney]

Damn a complete stranger on the other side of the world doesnt buy my story, now none of these strangers on this anonymous site will like me..damn it I was trying really hard to get you to like me man, I really needed for your approval and I just didnt get it...I worked really hard concocting this story for you but your keen veteran eyes saw straight through me. I had so much to gain by you believing me and now all my hopes have deflated, much like my ego...

I know my story is incredibly unlikely and fanciful, why ive never heard of a martial artist running down the road after someone and restraining an untrained person for the police, thats completely outlandish, how could anyone ever pull off such a superhuman task! Surely no one on a massive martial arts site could possibly have such an experience thats insane! Im sure no one on these forums has ever accomplished such an amazing feat. How could a white belt ever pull off such an advanced move? Especially one with no other martial arts background ever and having never trained or worked with security or police ever!

Surely the newspaper for the 2nd biggest city in the country would report every random theft that occurs on its streets, I cant possibly think why the NZ media would have other things to worry about, nor see why this wouldnt be of massive interest to them. I'm sure the police gave the media a highly detailed report of the whole thing that very day, and when my amazing heroics come to light I will immediately post up footage and personal details for all to see I can assure you!

 

[Empty Hands]

Not exactly helping...

 

[Disco]

"If you make a statement, you have to be able to back it up or it doesn't fly. You made two claims (crime is going up, and it's because citizens don't get involved anymore) and you failed utterly to back it up. The two 'proofs' you offer are that more prisons being built means crime is going up (specious logic) and the government is lying about crime statistics (without proof other than your general sneering dismissal of any government reporting)."

It's quite apparent that reading comprehension is not your strong suit. You have totally disregarded every thing I've said, only to foster claims of how in depth and knowledgeable your google search has been. As I've stated prior, feel free to believe what ever you wish and from whom. Oh, and perhaps you should also debate the posts regarding the retail professional theft rings that were offered. But wait, that surely would go against your crime is going down agenda. Just for thinking out loud, surely folks want to build more jails and prisons, just to prove that crime is actually on the decline........That's a rational that I'm sure everybody understands.

 

[Tez3]

Damn a complete stranger on the other side of the world doesnt buy my story, now none of these strangers on this anonymous site will like me..damn it I was trying really hard to get you to like me man, I really needed for your approval and I just didnt get it...I worked really hard concocting this story for you but your keen veteran eyes saw straight through me. I had so much to gain by you believing me and now all my hopes have deflated, much like my ego...

I know my story is incredibly unlikely and fanciful, why ive never heard of a martial artist running down the road after someone and restraining an untrained person for the police, thats completely outlandish, how could anyone ever pull off such a superhuman task! Surely no one on a massive martial arts site could possibly have such an experience thats insane! Im sure no one on these forums has ever accomplished such an amazing feat. How could a white belt ever pull off such an advanced move? Especially one with no other martial arts background ever and having never trained or worked with security or police ever!

Surely the newspaper for the 2nd biggest city in the country would report every random theft that occurs on its streets, I cant possibly think why the NZ media would have other things to worry about, nor see why this wouldnt be of massive interest to them. I'm sure the police gave the media a highly detailed report of the whole thing that very day, and when my amazing heroics come to light I will immediately post up footage and personal details for all to see I can assure you!

You're babbling mate.

Tanaka, doing what you think right when you've been given guidance as to what is considered right in your situation is foolhardy. The NZ law says not to lay hand on a shoplifter and they can't be physically restrained by a civilian so why chase him down the road and assault him. Yes, the shoplifter is a criminal but two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[BloodMoney]

Not exactly helping...

Yeah your right, sorry but sarcasm is about all I had the energy to muster in response to people calling me a liar. I hope it points out the pointlessness of such claims, I kinda expected more from this site than the usual "whatever your lying, go back to your mums basement troll!" response so common on forums. I guess if youve lived a pretty peaceful life in martial arts this all might seem a bit Hollywood, but any cop here will tell you this kind of incident is sadly very common place. If I was going to make up elaborate stories of gung fu badassedry I think I could come up with better than "I used a simple grapple to subdue a shoplifter" but I guess some people have limited imaginations?...:shrug:

 

[Steve]

I see nothing done wrong here. If he pushed down an 80year old lady... he has already shown what lengths he is willing to go/take for his own gain, and doesn't need to be running around. Needs to be locked up. Scum is scum to me. As far as bloodmoney, I am not going to put him down for doing what he thought was right. Human beings have different morale, and I cannot say anything wrong about someones choices of what they think is right.(Unless it's actually causing more harm, than benefiting.)
Some people look at this chase being the cause for the man stiff arming the old lady and knocking her out. I think it takes an evil man to stiff arm an innocent old lady in the first place, rather than realizing that he is harming people and should stop running.

sometimes, what you think is right is actually not right. Sometimes, people who aren't competent do more harm than good. If you're in the kitchen and there's a grease fire, you might think that the "right" thing to do is to dump a pitcher of water on it. Now, if you manage to extinguish a grease fire with water, that's more a product of dumb luck than anything else, and there's a very real chance you could spread the fire by your actions. In other words, well intentioned but incompetent action can actually be worse than cautious lack of action.

In exactly this way, jumping into a situation where someone might be armed may seem like a good idea, but it's actually just dumb luck that he didn't make things worse.

Damn a complete stranger on the other side of the world doesnt buy my story, now none of these strangers on this anonymous site will like me..damn it I was trying really hard to get you to like me man, I really needed for your approval and I just didnt get it...I worked really hard concocting this story for you but your keen veteran eyes saw straight through me. I had so much to gain by you believing me and now all my hopes have deflated, much like my ego...

I know my story is incredibly unlikely and fanciful, why ive never heard of a martial artist running down the road after someone and restraining an untrained person for the police, thats completely outlandish, how could anyone ever pull off such a superhuman task! Surely no one on a massive martial arts site could possibly have such an experience thats insane! Im sure no one on these forums has ever accomplished such an amazing feat. How could a white belt ever pull off such an advanced move? Especially one with no other martial arts background ever and having never trained or worked with security or police ever!

Surely the newspaper for the 2nd biggest city in the country would report every random theft that occurs on its streets, I cant possibly think why the NZ media would have other things to worry about, nor see why this wouldnt be of massive interest to them. I'm sure the police gave the media a highly detailed report of the whole thing that very day, and when my amazing heroics come to light I will immediately post up footage and personal details for all to see I can assure you!

Frankly, I don't have much of an opinion about you one way or the other. I'm really just reacting to what you're writing, and if it turns out I'm wrong, I'd have no problem saying so.

But the more you post, the more confident I am that I'm not wrong.

Not exactly helping...

I know. Right?

 

[Tez3]

Yeah your right, sorry but sarcasm is about all I had the energy to muster in response to people calling me a liar. I hope it points out the pointlessness of such claims, I kinda expected more from this site than the usual "whatever your lying, go back to your mums basement troll!" response so common on forums. I guess if youve lived a pretty peaceful life in martial arts this all might seem a bit Hollywood, but any cop here will tell you this kind of incident is sadly very common place. If I was going to make up elaborate stories of gung fu badassedry I think I could come up with better than "I used a simple grapple to subdue a shoplifter" but I guess some people have limited imaginations?...:shrug:

I haven't lived a peaceful life, thank goodness. 'Any cop will tell you', are you suggesting I have a good chat with myself then?

My dear boy, your description of your actions was written in the style of a breathless teenager, full of, as you have already been told, things that could look bad for you if read in court. it was boastful and bragging, you made the police out to be stupid and the by standers to be cowards. A simple account of your actions would have been sufficient, without the braggadocio.

 

[Tanaka]

sometimes, what you think is right is actually not right. Sometimes, people who aren't competent do more harm than good. If you're in the kitchen and there's a grease fire, you might think that the "right" thing to do is to dump a pitcher of water on it. Now, if you manage to extinguish a grease fire with water, that's more a product of dumb luck than anything else, and there's a very real chance you could spread the fire by your actions. In other words, well intentioned but incompetent action can actually be worse than cautious lack of action.

I am speaking of the morality of "right and wrong"

You have provided a physical reality of "right and wrong"

Morality is subjective, since morals existence relies on the existence of a mind. The physical realm is exclusive of what we think.(Which is what you showed in your example)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well, you also had slaves and beat your wives, and suspicion of guilt was good enough to break out the BBQ and start a good lynching. The old days had their problems too. On the whole, I think a state of law is preferable over vigilante justice.

Also this was an arrest (which is a good thing) and not a lynching (which is a bad thing, and the thing of which you have been stripped)

Meaning no disrespect to you, this is a huge leap and frankly unnecessary.

Firstly why the accusative tone, "and you also had slaves and beat your wives...and not a lynching (which is a bad thing, and the thing of which you have been stripped)"

Who is the 'you' of which you speak?

Things were definitely better in my own area thirty years ago, and nobody was lynching anyone.

I'm not going to debate statistics (though I tend to agree that the crime rate has fallen some), but I can tell you that people are afraid to simply let their kids go out to play in many areas, and in general, I think that people are more fearful now. One of the issues is that the kinds of crimes that we see are more heavily reported and often uncommon or unheard of thirty years ago. Gangs in the suburbs were virtually unheard of outside of the movies. Now we worry about MS13.

That is purely based on my personal observation, so take it for what it is worth.

Regardless, it kind of seems as if you were going after Disco. Maybe not your intent, but your response to him was pretty outrageous and frankly, unprovoked. I really do not see where your response is coming from. All you really had to say was that the good old days might not have been quite so good as people tend to think that they were.

Daniel

 

[Tanaka]

Meaning no disrespect to you, this is a huge leap and frankly unnecessary.

Firstly why the accusative tone, "and you also had slaves and beat your wives...and not a lynching (which is a bad thing, and the thing of which you have been stripped)"

Who is the 'you' of which you speak?

Things were definitely better in my own area thirty years ago, and nobody was lynching anyone.

I'm not going to debate statistics (though I tend to agree that the crime rate has fallen some), but I can tell you that people are afraid to simply let their kids go out to play in many areas, and in general, I think that people are more fearful now. One of the issues is that the kinds of crimes that we see are more heavily reported and often uncommon or unheard of thirty years ago. Gangs in the suburbs were virtually unheard of outside of the movies. Now we worry about MS13.

That is purely based on my personal observation, so take it for what it is worth.

Regardless, it kind of seems as if you were going after Disco. Maybe not your intent, but your response to him was pretty outrageous and frankly, unprovoked. I really do not see where your response is coming from. All you really had to say was that the good old days might not have been quite so good as people tend to think that they were.

Daniel

I think a lot of you are reading too much into this. Or might just be a flaw in the english language.

Seems to me hes just saying "This is what was had back in these days"


For example "Back in the day, you had people who used bow and arrow instead of guns"


In that sentence it's not specifically saying "You owned people who used bow and arrow"

 

[Tez3]

Every court case in Christchurch seems to be in here, can't find the security guard v shoplifter one though. Of course if it is please point it out, as the OP is Christchurch based there's a good chance he works there. I've been through several pages of achives going back to 2008 so far.
I'm snowed in with nothing else to do lol! Feel free to have a look. I will be looking at it regularly to see if the case comes up, if their justice is particularly slow, though I doubt a first hearing would take long to come about.

http://www.courtnews.co.nz/index.php

Do however have a look at this page, the court reporters obviously have a good sense of humour when reporting the proceedings! A few to make you chuckle.

http://www.courtnews.co.nz/observations.php

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think a lot of you are reading too much into this. Or might just be a flaw in the english language.

Seems to me hes just saying "This is what was had back in these days"


For example "Back in the day, you had people who used bow and arrow instead of guns"


In that sentence it's not specifically saying "You owned people who used bow and arrow"

I figured that, but the post is so out of left field (in my opinion), I thought that I'd ask, as maybe I am reading too much into it.

For most of us who talk about 'how it used to be' we are talking about how we remember things. Attaching racial injustice and spousal abuse to Disco's post did not make sense, at least not to me.

Nobody has been owned as slaves in the US during the lifetime of anyone posting on this board, unless we have some posters who grew up during the civil war. So why bring it up?

Lynchings and the Klan were not commonplace in all parts, or even most parts, of the country, and again, if you are under the age of fifty, chances are that that was not a factor in your life (though depending upon where you live, it may have). I'm sure that Disco counts lynching and the Klan as criminal activity and a hate group respectively, so again, why bring it up?

Spousal abuse is a factor now and has not really ever ceased to be a factor, so again, why bring it up?

Also, it was Bruno's comment, "which is a bad thing, and the thing of which you have been stripped" that made it come across as accusatory. The rest I would have chalked up to being a general 'you' had it not been for this sentence.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

I am speaking of the morality of "right and wrong"

You have provided a physical reality of "right and wrong"

Morality is subjective, since morals existence relies on the existence of a mind. The physical realm is exclusive of what we think.(Which is what you showed in your example)

Okay. I think I get what you're saying. My point is simply that what you think is "right" may not be right at all, whether morally or in reality.

 

[BloodMoney]

I haven't lived a peaceful life, thank goodness. 'Any cop will tell you', are you suggesting I have a good chat with myself then?

Then I'm sure you know all too well how common this kind of blatant daylight robbery is. Especially if your from the UK, I only spent a few weeks in London but jeeezus the young fellas over there are bloody nutcases! You must get literally hundreds of relatively minor crimes like this a day I would guess?

My dear boy, your description of your actions was written in the style of a breathless teenager, full of, as you have already been told, things that could look bad for you if read in court. it was boastful and bragging, you made the police out to be stupid and the by standers to be cowards. A simple account of your actions would have been sufficient, without the braggadocio.

Agreed. It had just happened, I was still high on the intensity of it all, and being praised by mall staff, fellow practitioners etc probably didnt help, swelled the ego a bit id say. To be honest I am proud of what I did, though I certainly dont think it was a particularly amazing feat, certainly wasnt the first time ive helped out cops with such incidents, though probably one of the more intense. I am not a breathless teenager, but I am also not a veteran middle aged man either, so if my stream-of-consciousness spew onto the page was a bit breathless I do apologize, but it was exciting and frankly a bit fun, so im not surprised if it came out a bit cowboy. Reading back over it now that I can stand back from the whole thing a bit I can see my post was a bit cavalier, but hey, so were my actions so *shrugs*

I can prove this happened, and I could just wipe my over enthusiastic original post and replace it with the boring police report version I did for the coppers, but to be honest I want to kinda keep it anonymous, especially out of respect for the police involved (one of whome was particularly awesome) I wouldnt want anything to get them in trouble etc and also dont want my face and name broadcast over the internet as this case is still open and ongoing. The bystanders were cowards, but the cops werent stupid, even if I was a bit callous in my description I wouldnt want it reflecting badly on them.

 

[Bruno@MT]

The bystanders were cowards, but the cops werent stupid, even if I was a bit callous in my description I wouldnt want it reflecting badly on them.

No they weren't. At least not by default. Not because of their inaction.

If I was somewhere with my kids, then I couldn't give a fig about who was running away from what and why. My first and most important priority is the safety of my kids. Everything else, including your property (or even your life) is less important than that if there was a chance of my kids life getting in danger because of what I might do.

But assume for a moment that I was alone, ok?
I am out shopping in the mall buying an ice cream, and in a fraction of a second I see you chasing someone else. Is he a thief running away from a security guard, or are you trying to beat him up because he had an affair with your girlfriend? I need a couple of seconds to parse what I am seeing before I can make a decision on how to proceed. If, by that time, he has gone past me, it is out of my hands. No? Or should I just blindly tackle him before understanding what I am seeing?

 

[Tez3]

Bruno has got it in a nutshell.

Bloodmoney, even if we accept what you say is true, you are still a braggart who seems to think it's the done thing to put down others to make yourself seem 'heroic'. You posts say everything about you, I don't think I need to say any more.

 

[Steve]

I can prove this happened, and I could just wipe my over enthusiastic original post and replace it with the boring police report version I did for the coppers, but to be honest I want to kinda keep it anonymous, especially out of respect for the police involved (one of whome was particularly awesome) I wouldnt want anything to get them in trouble etc and also dont want my face and name broadcast over the internet as this case is still open and ongoing. The bystanders were cowards, but the cops werent stupid, even if I was a bit callous in my description I wouldnt want it reflecting badly on them.

I saved an old lady and her cat from 9 ninja one time. It was dark, and she and her cat were taking a shortcut through a dark alley... I'm not sure why. When all of a sudden, I saw a flash of steel and sprang into action. Granted, the Conservation Law of Ninjutsu was in effect, so 9 ninja were actually much easier to defeat then had there been only one. I was fortunate.

And after I'd saved the day, the police arrived and everyone loved me. I was a hero. I know it sounds far fetched, but I can prove it all happened... but, to be honest, I think that I'd prefer to keep it anonymous. The cops are great guys and I don't want their otherwise sterling reputations to be tarnished in any way by my awesomeness. Yeah. That's it. That's exactly how it happened.