My intense citizens arrest

[Sukerkin]

That is something I have been pondering for years i.e. whether it is 'actual' crime or 'reported' crime that is soaring.

My personal experiences indicate that crime is rising and that much does not get reported because nothing gets done about it. Anti-social-behaviour is definitely out of control; again that is down to no fear of consequences (in my ever-so-middle-aged-opinion ).

 

[Disco]

"I'd like to point out that things are not really different now, despite what people say about the "Good Old Days." There was a time not long ago when hooded men performed lynchings in public; how many 'good citizens' ran outside and confronted the Klan when they dragged men and women from their homes? Yeah, thought so."

This is the second rendering of the lynching past..............Where the hell do you come off offering this as a rebuttal for somebody stepping up and confronting the bad guy. Was the Klan justified in what they did..........Of course not, they were nothing more than thugs and that's why folks didn't step up to confront them and today's modern gangs are one and the same. No lynchings. just plenty of drive by's and drug dealings and nobody is stepping up, even the police, to stop them. Contrary to offered opinion on crime is going down, that's a joke. Don't believe it, just ask some cops about all the drugs and gang violence that's ongoing all over the country. Still don't think so, watch the history channel or just goggle it. The folks that offer the proposed crime reduction are the same folks that channel government funding into police departments. Years back, we got extra funding if we showed an increase in the crime rate. Today's option is show a reduced rate and funding can be channeled for a different cause, extra training, increased manpower, additional overtimes, updated software/hardware and so on, so they can continue to BS the general public that it's getting safer. The news reports and a small amount of common sense shows a different story.

 

[Empty Hands]

The news reports and a small amount of common sense shows a different story.

Unrepresentative sample and confirmation bias.

You don't get to just wave your hands and make almost 20 years of comprehensive crime data just vanish to be replaced only by your personal opinion. If you have evidence that the data is flawed, post it. Otherwise any rational person would be forced to conclude that their personal opinion was wrong when confronted with such data.

 

[Disco]

Unrepresentative sample and confirmation bias.

You don't get to just wave your hands and make almost 20 years of comprehensive crime data just vanish to be replaced only by your personal opinion. If you have evidence that the data is flawed, post it. Otherwise any rational person would be forced to conclude that their personal opinion was wrong when confronted with such data.

Not waving my hands and thumping my chest, but offering a simplistic rebuttal, which is not a personal opinion, but one based on news coverage, documented reports via the history channel and my own job related experiences. My entire family is in LE and being on the inside, we know and understand the aspects of what the government requires for their funding and the ever present Justice departments offering of statistics. Now those statistics are not available to the general public, until after they have been compiled from regional venues and sorted by the JD's staff. Since their the only one's that see the raw data and no one else is privy to it, we only have their word on what's being offered as imperial evidence of up or down crime rates. So evidence against this offered date is unavailable and your more than welcome to believe what you wish. I'll offer this aspect to bolster my position. Our jails and prisons are over crowded and this has been openly documented by the politicians running for office all over the country. Check for yourself. So if crime is down and constantly being reduced on a yearly bases, as some have offered, why the need to build new facilities. The private sector is offering and building new facilities to house the overpopulation, because there's money to be made and thus actually and physically rebutting the offered data that crime is on the decline.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The news reports and a small amount of common sense shows a different story.

Neither are factual. The facts are, however, available.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr

Hate Crimes
The number of bias-related incidents dropped in 2009, according to our annual Hate Crime Statistics report.

Crime Statistics
Our Crime in the United States report shows a 5.3 percent decrease in violent crime and a 4.6 percent drop in property crime during 2009.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1963761,00.html

What's Behind America's Falling Crime Rate

By David Von Drehle Monday, Feb. 22, 2010



Health care, climate change, terrorism — is it even possible to solve big problems? The mood in Washington is not very hopeful these days. But take a look at what has happened to one of the biggest, toughest problems facing the country 20 years ago: violent crime. For years, Americans ranked crime at or near the top of their list of urgent issues. Every politician, from alderman to President, was expected to have a crime-fighting agenda, yet many experts despaired of solutions. By 1991, the murder rate in the U.S. reached a near record 9.8 per 100,000 people. Meanwhile, criminologists began to theorize that a looming generation of so-called superpredators would soon make things even worse.

Then, a breakthrough. Crime rates started falling. Apart from a few bumps and plateaus, they continued to drop through boom times and recessions, through peace and war, under Democrats and Republicans. Last year's murder rate may be the lowest since the mid-1960s, according to preliminary statistics released by the Department of Justice. The human dimension of this turnaround is extraordinary: had the rate remained unchanged, an additional 170,000 Americans would have been murdered in the years since 1992. That's more U.S. lives than were lost in combat in World War I, Korea, Vietnam and Iraq — combined. In a single year, 2008, lower crime rates meant 40,000 fewer rapes, 380,000 fewer robberies, half a million fewer aggravated assaults and 1.6 million fewer burglaries than we would have seen if rates had remained at peak levels.

The crime rate has dropped in the USA. It continues to drop. Those are facts, they are not contestable.

News reports and 'common sense' to the contrary.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So if crime is down and constantly being reduced on a yearly bases, as some have offered, why the need to build new facilities. The private sector is offering and building new facilities to house the overpopulation, because there's money to be made and thus actually and physically rebutting the offered data that crime is on the decline.

Terrible logic.

Crime down. Prisoners up. Let's see, what can we do to connect these two factoids? Hmm, here's one. Maybe crime rates are down BECAUSE more people are in prison? Maybe the two facts are simply two facts, and don't have a causal relationship to each other?

And puh-leaze. Law enforcement family? I was in law enforcement for a decade. Many here still are. That dog don't hunt.

 

[jks9199]

That is something I have been pondering for years i.e. whether it is 'actual' crime or 'reported' crime that is soaring.

My personal experiences indicate that crime is rising and that much does not get reported because nothing gets done about it. Anti-social-behaviour is definitely out of control; again that is down to no fear of consequences (in my ever-so-middle-aged-opinion ).

In the US, there are two official measures of crime. Crime In The United States is published by the FBI, and the data comes from crimes reported to and investigated by the various police and law enforcement agencies. The National Crime Victimization Survey is conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics (part of the Department of Justice) the result of a survey of a sample of the population, and hopefully gets at what may be missed by the FBI's reports.

For 2009, Crime in The United States had the following summary regarding violent crime:

Overview

• In 2009, an estimated 1,318,398 violent crimes occurred nationwide, a decrease of
  5.3 percent from the 2008 estimate.
• When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2009 estimated violent crime total was
  5.2 percent below the 2005 level and 7.5 percent below the 2000 level.
• There were an estimated 429.4 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2009.
• Aggravated assaults accounted for the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement at 61.2 percent. Robbery comprised 31.0 percent of violent crimes, forcible rape accounted for 6.7 percent, and murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2009.
• Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in
  67.1 percent of the Nation’s murders, 42.6 percent of robberies, and 20.9 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for forcible rape.) (See Expanded Homicide Data Table 7, Robbery Table 3, and the Aggravated Assault Table.)

and the National Crime Victimization Survey reported this:

Summary findings

• According to the FBI, the murder rate declined by 8.1% between 2008 and 2009.
• In 2009 the NCVS measured about 4.3 million nonfatal violent victimizations of persons age 12 or older. Violent crime victimizations were experienced by 17.1 per 1,000 persons age 12 or older.
• Simple assault is the most frequently occurring violent crime. In 2009 about 2.9 million simple assault victimizations affected about 11.3 per 1,000 persons age 12 or older.
• The rate of violent crime declined between 2008 and 2009.
• Nearly half of all nonfatal violent crimes were reported to the police in 2009.

More information about both can be found HERE

Note that both had similar findings; crime rates in general appear to be falling.

 

[jks9199]

Regarding crime statistics:

Of course the books can be cooked, both deliberately and accidentally. Often, the same incident can be classified in different ways. For example, the incident described by the OP involves at least a larceny, and two separate assaults. The original theft is a larceny, the little old lady is one assault -- and the OP committed another assault on the bad guy. I could even make it one simple assault and one aggravated assault because the choke is a potentially lethal technique. Depending on how it was reported, it could be represented in the statistics as either simply a shoplifting, or a shoplifting w/assault, or even a shoplifting plus an assault plus a separate aggravated assault.

Statistics are only as good as they are... Sukerkin can probably go more in depth on this than I can, if I recall his background correctly. But when two measures, conducted essentially from opposite sides of the question, come up with similar results -- you can probably say that at least the basic conclusions are sound.

Now the reasons behind the falling crime rate? That's a lot more complicated. We've got more cops working -- and more private security. We're using technology to do both jobs more effectively. We've got a lot of repeat offenders locked up thanks to Three Strikes laws, harsher or more restricted sentencing, and reductions in parole. Our population has also been falling -- especially in the "prime crimogenic population" of males between 18 and about 35. Which is the cause? Or is it a combination of one or more of them? Don't know. Criminologists argue at length --and they hit even more causes.

 

[Archangel M]

A few things I have learned.

After chasing a few shoplifters through busy parking lots and across streets while working off duty....no stolen item is worth getting killed over.

After outrunning my cover and tackling a guy bigger than me...Id rather conserve my energy, follow him and wait for someone else to catch up or cut him off.

Instead of bailing out of my car and pursuing on foot...sometimes it's better to drive a few streets over and wait for the BG to come to me.

 

[BloodMoney]

Are you sure you can't sue in NZ? I've just been looking at a NZ law website and you are still liable to civil proceedings in a citizens arrest if things go wrong. I'd check if I were you, that old lady may be looking for damages if in fact as Steve says this is a real scenerio.

I am in no way responsible for this old ladys pain. So I would happily go to small claims court (which is about as bad as it would get) as it would probably involve all 5 or 6 of the people chasing him, including 3 police officers. A policeman called out "stop him, police!" and I stopped him. Its that simple.

If I hadnt of caught him the only difference would have been he would have got away, the old lady still would have been knocked to the ground as the crim was being chased by multiple people BEFORE I became involved, and was desperate. All I did was make sure he was actually caught and charge for his crimes, instead of getting away with it. Theres no way anyone can possibly convince me that is a bad thing. Everybody thinks and talks about doing something when they see a crime, only difference is I had the balls to actually do it.

You might be able to sue in NZ, but I have NEVER heard of or met anyone that has sued someone or been sued in my life.

You seem to have actually quite a bad opinion of police officers who while they may not be as fit or as knowledgable about martial arts as you, certainly far more experienced in apprehending criminals and have vastly more knowledge of the law than you, all of which, despite what you may think, is actually more important than your MA and fitness.

...More important unless your in a high speed foot pursuit with an unarmed criminal and must apprehend him no backup and using only your bare hands. Their knowledge of apprehending criminals and law was completely irrelevant, it was a good old fashioned footchase plain and simple. I most certainly dont have a bad opinion of officers, one of the policemen involved is a hero here in our city and survived being shot in the face. I respect him a lot and he respected me, we worked together to get the bad guy.

I didnt type "lol I am way more badarse than ALL cops im awesome!!!" all I said was I was better equipped to handle that one particular scenario than the police officers that were there that day, and that they would have done (and did) do exactly the same as me and behaved exactly the same, apart from I happened to be the first guy to subdue the crim.

As has been said before you can denigrate the passers-by behaviour but they didn't make the situation worse.

How do you know that? If the big builder right at the start that got "off duty officer, stop him!" shouted at him actually just stuck his foot out and tripped the guy then there would have been no chase, no hurt old lady, nothing. So actually I disagree, I think by doing nothing some of them made the situation worse yes.

Out running the cops is not a good thing, cops don't do it, they wait for back up. The last thing you want is to be on your own facing an armed criminal, the police have training, tactics and equipment.

Cops dont do it? They wait for backup? They have equipment? Did you actually read the original post man. ALL the cops within the whole mall ran after him, blatantly not calling for backup (I know because I called the backup for them off my cell phone). None of them had equipment, they needed help, thats the whole point man. Others tried to help them, I just succeeded due to many years of hard training.

Ive seen videos of cops getting beaten up while civvies stand round watching. Criminals getting away literally with murder in broad daylight while no one says or does anything. Homeless guys laying in the street while people just step over them. Ive seen the footage man, it may be like that in your country but over here you help people out, you chase criminals, you try and do what you can and personally ill do that every time over standing there worried that someone could sue me.

 

[Disco]

Mr Mattocks and company..............you can believe whatever you want, as it's being dictated by portions of the government and we all know that the government will always be offering the utmost truth to us the average tax payers. Now if you honestly believe that, then I'm sure we have new found hope for the Easter Bunny, Santa and of course Superman. You can site all the given logs, journals and so forth, but we must remember from whence they came. I've actually filled out dictated statistical logs for entry into these numbers game and I'll only say this............being accurate was not a mainstay of entry. Take it for what it's worth and believe what you want.

Sorry to everyone else for being a part of the hijacking of this thread from the original subject matter. We now return you to your regular viewing...........:supcool:

 

[bluewaveschool]

At my place of work, we wave and smile when people shop lift, then complain in the breakroom that our raises and bonuses are going out the door. Try to remotely stop/confront one, and you are fired on the spot. I'm moving to NZ.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

At my place of work, we wave and smile when people shop lift, then complain in the breakroom that our raises and bonuses are going out the door. Try to remotely stop/confront one, and you are fired on the spot. I'm moving to NZ.

Or australia, down this end of the world we havent quite got to the point of everyone sueing everyone else over stupid things just yet. There are some over the top exceptions that pop up from time to time but generally its not as ridiculous. I dare say if you shoplifted here in full view of a shop owner you would be lucky to get away with just a few bruises.

 

[Tez3]

I am in no way responsible for this old ladys pain. So I would happily go to small claims court (which is about as bad as it would get) as it would probably involve all 5 or 6 of the people chasing him, including 3 police officers. A policeman called out "stop him, police!" and I stopped him. Its that simple.

If I hadnt of caught him the only difference would have been he would have got away, the old lady still would have been knocked to the ground as the crim was being chased by multiple people BEFORE I became involved, and was desperate. All I did was make sure he was actually caught and charge for his crimes, instead of getting away with it. Theres no way anyone can possibly convince me that is a bad thing. Everybody thinks and talks about doing something when they see a crime, only difference is I had the balls to actually do it.

You might be able to sue in NZ, but I have NEVER heard of or met anyone that has sued someone or been sued in my life.



...More important unless your in a high speed foot pursuit with an unarmed criminal and must apprehend him no backup and using only your bare hands. Their knowledge of apprehending criminals and law was completely irrelevant, it was a good old fashioned footchase plain and simple. I most certainly dont have a bad opinion of officers, one of the policemen involved is a hero here in our city and survived being shot in the face. I respect him a lot and he respected me, we worked together to get the bad guy.

I didnt type "lol I am way more badarse than ALL cops im awesome!!!" all I said was I was better equipped to handle that one particular scenario than the police officers that were there that day, and that they would have done (and did) do exactly the same as me and behaved exactly the same, apart from I happened to be the first guy to subdue the crim.



How do you know that? If the big builder right at the start that got "off duty officer, stop him!" shouted at him actually just stuck his foot out and tripped the guy then there would have been no chase, no hurt old lady, nothing. So actually I disagree, I think by doing nothing some of them made the situation worse yes.



Cops dont do it? They wait for backup? They have equipment? Did you actually read the original post man. ALL the cops within the whole mall ran after him, blatantly not calling for backup (I know because I called the backup for them off my cell phone). None of them had equipment, they needed help, thats the whole point man. Others tried to help them, I just succeeded due to many years of hard training.

Ive seen videos of cops getting beaten up while civvies stand round watching. Criminals getting away literally with murder in broad daylight while no one says or does anything. Homeless guys laying in the street while people just step over them. Ive seen the footage man, it may be like that in your country but over here you help people out, you chase criminals, you try and do what you can and personally ill do that every time over standing there worried that someone could sue me.

Firstly, don't call me 'man', I'm not.

Your OP came over as how good you were and lousy the cops are, you complained about people not helping now you are saying everyone helps out, which is it? Your posts come over as a blatent 'how good am I, how lousy are the cops ' boast, you said you were better than them. Yes, perhaps you are.... at taking stupid risks. If you think you don't bear any responsiblity towards members of the public, well I guess you aren't going to be made to see that you do. Keep thinking you are a big man, it will probably get you very hurt one day.

 

[Bruno@MT]

"Well, you also had slaves and beat your wives, and suspicion of guilt was good enough to break out the BBQ and start a good lynching. The old days had their problems too. On the whole, I think a state of law is preferable over vigilante justice."

Great response and hits right to the heart of the subject...........I can't even fathom why such a response was even in your head, unless you have a hidden racial agenda.

racial agenda? me? Because I supply 2 examples, one of which has nothing to do with race at all? that is so silly I won't even go there.

No. I was refering to taking matters in your own hands, which was imo what was refered to earlier when someone (you?) complained that this was no longer allowed because of lawyers and laws. It used to be like that earlier, but it was also rife with abuse against powerless groups like women and colored people.

Arresting someone is fine. Roughing him up needlessly and making fun of it is not.

"
We sit on this forum and talk about training and different types and for what? to bolster ego's? When somebody actually does employ any part of their training, then folks like you come out and offer something totally off the wall and others can only see the negative aspects of the situation because that's what they have been programed to see. So the moral of this is that using your training is just a waste of time and you only stand the chance of being sued for side effects. Take a good hard look at just what we've become in this country..............If your honest, it ain't pretty!!

That is not what I said. Please don't twist my words.
I commended the OP, and also said I did not think he did anything wrong. Feel free to check if you want. But if people like you startsaying that it used to be better when there was less protection of suspects, then I counter that by pointing out the abuse that went with such loose restrictions.

And pointing out that posting the original story can get the police in trouble for police brutality, and you for recklessness or other charges is realistic, and does in no way imply personal disagreement with what happened.

 

[mook jong man]

THE BALLAD OF BLOODMONEY​

There was movement at the mall , for the word had passed around.
A few crims were on the loose and they had to be brought to ground.​

Ipod touch's , all manner of electronic goods they stole .
There was no way they were going to stop , cos it payed better than the bloody dole.​

The thieves ran through the mall smashing people everywhere.
It looked like the All Blacks versus Australia , they just didn't bloody care.​

The constabulary appealed for help , but people looked the other way.
Even the big builder bloke said " Not my problem mate , your on your own today."​

But the young kiwi lad called Bloodmoney , he didn't hesitate.
Just like the Anzacs's of old , a mate always helps a mate.​

He went after the bastards , running so fast his lungs nearly burst.
Now all his training was paying off , because the crims were fairing worse.​

Then there was only two , in a game of cat and mouse.
But the cunning crim gave him the slip by hiding behind a house.​

The young lad was a mighty keen hunter , and had never lost his prey.
It was only a matter of time , before he caught this bloke today.​

He finally spotted him in some ladies yard , exhausted and head all bowed.
So the lad slapped him in a choke that would have made the Gracies proud.​

The crim put up a quite a struggle , that is to be sure .
But Bloodmoney just cinched the choke tighter , man this was going to be a war.​

The coppers finally caught up , and said thanks to Bloodmoney.
They cuffed the crim , and said " Now don't you go tryin anything funny "​

The folk at the mall still talk to this day.
About the young bloke Bloodmoney , who never let that bastard get away.​

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Mr Mattocks and company..............you can believe whatever you want, as it's being dictated by portions of the government and we all know that the government will always be offering the utmost truth to us the average tax payers. Now if you honestly believe that, then I'm sure we have new found hope for the Easter Bunny, Santa and of course Superman. You can site all the given logs, journals and so forth, but we must remember from whence they came. I've actually filled out dictated statistical logs for entry into these numbers game and I'll only say this............being accurate was not a mainstay of entry. Take it for what it's worth and believe what you want.

Sorry to everyone else for being a part of the hijacking of this thread from the original subject matter. We now return you to your regular viewing...........:supcool:

If you make a statement, you have to be able to back it up or it doesn't fly. You made two claims (crime is going up, and it's because citizens don't get involved anymore) and you failed utterly to back it up. The two 'proofs' you offer are that more prisons being built means crime is going up (specious logic) and the government is lying about crime statistics (without proof other than your general sneering dismissal of any government reporting).

You fail. Your argument is rejected. Believe what I like? I'll believe the facts as I have them. When and if you have any actual data to offer to support your theories about crime, feel free to offer them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To the OP, sounds very intense indeed.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

Im quite surprised this coming from a BJJ practitioner. Im only a white belt (actually my club just gave me my blue tab two days after this incident - woohoo) and I could easily choke out an untrained guy...surely youve rolled with beginners on their first day? This guy had no idea how to fend me off, it was incredibly easy for me to control him safely and minimizing injury to both myself and him.

I have no doubt at all that I could easily choke out an untrained guy. I'm just doubting that the story happened as described, if at all. I've seen a lot of guys who train BJJ for a few months who act like you're acting, telling stories about how they used their superpowers to overcome villainy, and I don't believe their stories either.

I haven't seen very many who have trained longer than a year or so act like this, though. It's hard to train BJJ and have an inflated ego, and most people who train in it for long enough to get to blue or purple belt are confident enough in their ability that they don't have to wear it on their sleeve for everyone to see.

So, just to sum up: I don't think this happened. I'd be interested to read a local account. Surely something like this would be written up in the local paper. I could be wrong, but until proven otherwise, this reads like a tall tale.

If it did happen as described, I think you were reckless and could have gotten yourself hurt, or much worse, gotten someone else hurt. Over what? Electronic crap. Once again, I don't believe that any amount of merchandise is worth risking lives over. Certainly nothing you can buy in a mall.

 

[Tez3]

I have no doubt at all that I could easily choke out an untrained guy. I'm just doubting that the story happened as described, if at all. I've seen a lot of guys who train BJJ for a few months who act like you're acting, telling stories about how they used their superpowers to overcome villainy, and I don't believe their stories either.

I haven't seen very many who have trained longer than a year or so act like this, though. It's hard to train BJJ and have an inflated ego, and most people who train in it for long enough to get to blue or purple belt are confident enough in their ability that they don't have to wear it on their sleeve for everyone to see.

So, just to sum up: I don't think this happened. I'd be interested to read a local account. Surely something like this would be written up in the local paper. I could be wrong, but until proven otherwise, this reads like a tall tale.

If it did happen as described, I think you were reckless and could have gotten yourself hurt, or much worse, gotten someone else hurt. Over what? Electronic crap. Once again, I don't believe that any amount of merchandise is worth risking lives over. Certainly nothing you can buy in a mall.

Have a read of this.
http://www.newzealandsecurity.co.nz/Portals/486/Dec 09-Jan 10.pdf

the first part deals with shop lifting, it says very clearly you have to know the law before you can effect a citizens arrest and another bit says how you should deal with it, notably these bits!

"Once the shoplifter has left the store,
they cannot be restrained physically,
security personnel need to speak calmly
and ask the person to go back to the​

store without accusing them of anything"

"No physicality​

(unless in personal defence) is allowed."

"According to Davis, a store owner in
Auckland received a 6-month
conviction for assault with bodily injury
because he grabbed a shoplifter by the
shirt collar when he was running out of
his store with an armful of DVDs. The
shoplifter fell on the ground and
skinned his elbow but the owner got
suspended and received a felony​

conviction for assault."

Now a professional security guard working in a retail environment would know that right? I'm with you thinking that this is a rather dramatic account of something that happened only while day dreaming during a boring shift.