Let me know If I did the right thing as a MA.

[KenpoEMT]

Than he told me to come out and face him like a man. The funny thing was: I just left the dojo and I was warmed up. To knock him down would not have been a problem.
I decided to move the car instead.

I think that the older I get, the less patience I have for idiots like that guy you describe.
Unfortunately, I think I would have "faced him like a man." If he wants to be a j@ck@ss in public, I'm not going to feed his big bully ego by walking away; one of us will learn a lesson. Hopefully it would be him.
What a big, angry idiot.
Sorry that you had to deal with such a fool :angry:

 

[DavidCC]

I agree that avoiding the confrontation was the right thing to do.


But it really bothers me that this is another example of how being an a-hole gets you what you want. Disrespect people, be confrontational, be a jerk... get what you want. Be kind, avoid confrontation, respect others... get taken advantage of. 2 a-holes got their way and you got a big inconvenience and a moral dilemma to wrestle with. Is that right? I don't know.

 

[Han-Mi]

you are a better man than most, but I admit, I may have been a little happier if the story ended with the guy eating dirt.

 

[Paul B]

Good points all around.

It is a pita to deal with people like that. But I think you handled it well as a mature,responsible person would.

It's hardly worth trying to talk someone down logically when their behaviour is highly irrational as described. If you would have exited the car (even though you were legally parked)..I'm sure the "tuff guy" would have tried to start something. I do feel a little pity for idiots like that..I'm sure their lives are very fulfilling..pshh.

In the end..you can't kick every dog that barks at you,eh?

 

[BaiKaiGuy]

The more MA that I learned over the years the more I realized how dangerous I had become. As MA-ists we are learning more about hurting people than the average joe out there. We learn in our respective arts ways to take a person down and in some cases inflict the maxium amount of damage possible. It is important that we all also learn restraint and knowing when it's necessary to use whatever techniques that are (err) necessary.
The more we know the more restrained we must be and the higher our standards of honor.

No offense, but gimme a break. Most of those techniques are not practiced enough to inflict the type of damage you seem to think you can inflict. I doubt you're nearly as dangerous as you like to think. None of us are.

You know, I have to agree with you on something.

We do have laws. And to be honest, I think that not laws are fair. No personal offence to you as a law person.
Basically law allow people to yell at other people.
Just wondering, if someone, lets say- cursed out your mom or your wife, but did not hurt her, would you smile and like a rightfull sitizen walk away?

No offence intended, just trying to put things in perspective.

ME: Simple. I walk away. If you let word get to you to the point where you feel like you need to throw fists, you need to grow up, plain and simple. And yes, been there when some yoyo insults my gradmother or my lover.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

I guess I disagree with the majority.

I don't think you did the right thing - maybe half right (not thrashing the guy). If it was me, I would calmly explain that my car was parked legally and I would not be moving it, then I would go about my business.

If the guy keeps yelling and demanding a fight, I'd ignore him - probably appologize a couple times for not being able to help, then I'd walk away.
If I haven't done anything wrong, I'm not going to let some idiot tell me to fix something that's not my problem. If they want to get physical over it, that's their choice (and a very bad one too).

"The guy runs out and starts cursing at me to move my car. Keep in mind that I am legally parked. I would have moved, but I did not appreciate that attitude."

Attitude or not, I would simply point out the van on the other side that is illegally parked, and say "that vehicle is in your way, not mine."

"-Did I do the right thing?"

No. You gave into aggression and reinforced that man's behavior.

"Should I have move right away?"

No. You were legally parked.

"Should I have knocked him?"

Only if he attacked you, and you could not get away.

"Should I have stayed in one place and not came out of the car?"

No. If you were originally planning on parking there to then walk to whereever, then that is what you should have done, and not let some loudmouth tell you what to do.

​

Martial artist or not.

 

[arnisador]

Of course it was the right thing because, as others have indicated, it was the thing that was in keeping with the law. Anything involving the initiation of physical violence would've exposed you to criminal and civil actions. Think how "So, you had just left a martial arts class..." would sound in court!

 

[KenpoEMT]

you are a better man than most, but I admit, I may have been a little happier if the story ended with the guy eating dirt.

Yeah, I'll second that.

There sure are alot of angels on this forum. It's very easy to be the voice of reason after we've all had time to consider the facts. Maybe there are many people here who have been walking away from bullies their entire lives.

Sometimes you MUST stand up for yourself.

No one should have to give up their parking space, table, chair, standing location, desk, car, snacks, briefcase, or anything else to a grown bully who gets his/her way by yelling, by making threats, or by general aggression/intimidation.

Living in a civilized society does not mean allowing yourself to be pushed around by everyone who wasn't loved by his/her father or was beaten by his/her mother.
:soapbox:

 

[Matt Stone]

BaiKaiGuy - Attorney, eh? I'm a military paralegal, working toward my associate's in paralegal studies now (mainly for the job; when I retire from the Army I'm going into teaching, not law...). I work in military justice, post-trial and appellate review right now. Entertaining stuff...

Everyone Else -

I have a personal code of honor, too. I'd hope that any decent human being would, too. Whether that code stems from deeply held religious beliefs, professional guidelines of behavior, or martial arts training, let me ask this: is it you as a facet of you that holds the code true, or is it the you of whom the martial artist is only a part that holds the code true?

My point?

For a long time I allowed my Self to be defined by what I did, not who I was. I was a Soldier, an Infantryman, and I allowed myself to become what I did. It wasn't until many unhappy years later that I realized that what I do, be it martial arts, computer games, or wanking in the bathroom, is only a part of who I am. It does not define all that I am. By labeling yourself and your behavior as "I am this," or "if I behave X way as a MAist," you place limitations on who you are...

So your personal code, whether it is religiously, professionally, or martially based, should be an expression of the totality of You, not merely a small splinter of your entire existence.

Now, I'll admit that those who know me would argue that martial arts IS me... They know me as "Matt the martial arts guy," but not as "that martial arts guy, Matt." I hope you can see the difference.

Lastly, I never said walk away with your tail tucked between your legs... I spent a good number of years thinking that that was the right way to behave. Then I grew up and realized that, as stated earlier, you have to stand your ground at some point. Martial arts training helped me to better understand when, morally, that is the thing to do. My legal training has also helped me understand when it is in my best interests to walk away, regardless what the moral thing may be.

I've walked away from conflict, and I've stood my ground and defended my family. But I did it as ME, not as me the MARTIAL ARTIST.

I hope you get my point...

Pax.

 

[Matt Stone]

We do have laws. And to be honest, I think that not laws are fair.

Actually, when you stop being emotional and thinking you deserve some kind of special treatment, laws are quite fair across the board. Understand that laws are there for the benefit of society as a whole, not you as one very minor piece of society's structure...

Basically law allow people to yell at other people.

Because yelling at you doesn't cause you any real, quantifiable injury or damage. Depending on what he was saying, even yelling at you can be illegal to a certain degree... Communicating a threat is illegal, as is making slanderous comments, attempting to incite you to violent action, and inviting you to duel. So, no, the laws aren't unfair at all. The question is, which one of you would have been more heavily prosecuted for acting inappropriately? Him for "yelling at you," or you for knocking his teeth loose for having been yelled at? :idunno:

I suspect the latter, regardless of your super street lethal martial arts training...

Just wondering, if someone, lets say- cursed out your mom or your wife, but did not hurt her, would you smile and like a rightfull sitizen walk away?

Been there, done that. I've stood my ground, I've walked away. As a husband as well as a father, I have a responsibility to act in a manner that sets an example, not just to satiate my thirst for vengeance and retribution. Justice isn't always about what feels good, but it's always about what is right...

No offence intended, just trying to put things in perspective.

As am I... And your perspective is too narrow and too subjective. Step outside yourself and examine the bigger picture. Then answer your own question...

Pax.

 

[Adept]

I agree with Shizen Shigoku here. You did the right thing in not getting into a blue over a car park, but I think you did the wrong thing in backing down and moving your car.

Personally, if he insisted I was in the way I would have told him his car was double-parked and I would tell him if he continued to insist I move my car I would call the police.

By caving and moving your car, you reinforce his ego and give him positive reinforcement for his actions.

 

[MJS]

I agree that avoiding the confrontation was the right thing to do.


But it really bothers me that this is another example of how being an a-hole gets you what you want. Disrespect people, be confrontational, be a jerk... get what you want. Be kind, avoid confrontation, respect others... get taken advantage of. 2 a-holes got their way and you got a big inconvenience and a moral dilemma to wrestle with. Is that right? I don't know.

Ya know, you bring up a good point, and many times, I sit there thinking the same thing! Someone cuts me off in traffic, I honk the horn in an attempt to wake the clueless person up, they get ticked off, and start yelling at me!! Ummm..excuse me, but you were the one that cut me off and now you have the nerver to yell at me for beeping?? :idunno:

Some people just can't be man/woman enough to admit that they might have made a mistake. I guess its a matter of ego. So, big deal..let the child yell, belittle me, tell me they're gonna kick my butt, etc, etc. but its important to keep somewhere in the back of our head that if we do decide to take action, whatever it may be, that we need to accept the fact that we could be bringing a ton of problems crashing down on us.

Mike

 

[Bammx2]

Ya know what?
SOME people just like to fight!
If "you" don't, to bad. Thats just the way it is.
And becuase some people like to fight,or better yet...stand up against bullies,does NOT make you a bad person.
As for BaiKaiGuy...
I take offence at your statement of "you're not as dangerous as you think you are.None of us are".
Lawyer or not,you don't speak for me or anyone else for that matter.
In my opinion,law has replaced the need for honor.
There ya go! jump to the wrong conclusion!
It does serve some purpose.
BUT...if these 2 guys wanted to bash the ever livin crap out of each other,the law can't do anything if no one wants to press charges.
Cept maybe for a some sort of public disorder. thats it.
And this whole thing of "he's not worth it" may be right,but in most cases,thats just passin the buck.
"Let the next guy deal with him".
No.
I can stand up to people and not get physical and still get my point across.
But if he deiceds to "steps stupid",I ain't runnin....I'm obligin.
And for the record......
I have walked away from more confontations than the majority of people can can count.But they were my choices and no on elses.
And I have never been arrested or even spent a day in jail for my decision and yes,the police were involved.
There a lot of people out there who don't give a damn about the law and keep making victims until the law can accumulate enough evidence or whatever to put them away.
How many victims does that add up to these days?

As for us "MA'ers" who do train for the fight that may never come,at least we will be prepared to stand for those who won't or can't.
AND....
If YOU know already you could bash the guys head in........
who's left to prove it to?
As a MARTIAL ARTIST....you did the right thing to leave.
As LAW BIDING CITIZEN....you had the right to stand your ground,maybe take beating,but if he started it,you could have him arrested.
But even if he does start it and he has more friends than you do to testify,you're still in the dog house.
And for the record,I'll take jail time or a beat down so other people won't have to.
It's not always about EGO....sometimes it's just about doing what others can't,or worse...won't do.

It's not who you are on the inside that matters.It's what you do that defines who you are.

 

[MJS]

Ya know what?
SOME people just like to fight!
If "you" don't, to bad. Thats just the way it is.
And becuase some people like to fight,or better yet...stand up against bullies,does NOT make you a bad person.

You're right, some people do like to fight. However, by taking a swing at this guy, does it really make you a better person? Keep in mind, people like the one in question..the one that double parked his van...do not care about what anyone thinks of them. If they did, do you think he'd park like that? People that cut you off in traffic...do you think that they care if they did or almost cause an accident? If they did, maybe they'd be a little more considerate of others. Sure, by not talking some smack back to the guy, it gives the impression that we're nothing but a wimp. Ya know what...if thats what the guy wants to think, fine, let him think that. Him calling me a wimp is not going to hurt me. Now, by all means, if the situation seems to escalate, and talking is not working, then yes, defend yourself.

As a MARTIAL ARTIST....you did the right thing to leave.
As LAW BIDING CITIZEN....you had the right to stand your ground,maybe take beating,but if he started it,you could have him arrested.

And I'm sure that the cops and the judge are going to ask if you had the chance to leave without escalating the situation. He calls you names, you respond in the same fashion, neither one of you is going to back down, punches are traded or he calls you a name and you just continue on your way. Again, what harm did he do to you? Insult you by calling you a name? Talk is cheap!

It's not always about EGO....sometimes it's just about doing what others can't,or worse...won't do.

Actually, it is about ego! This guy who double parked, someone who cuts you off, etc. does not care. They could almost cause an accident, cause you to swerve, etc., and not give a damn. You react to that, they take offense and make you to be the bad guy. Why? Because of ego. They are people that are never wrong, are always 'perfect' and will never admit it, because they always have to have the last word.

It's not who you are on the inside that matters.It's what you do that defines who you are.

And if someone chooses to not fight, that makes them less of a person? Sorry, but again, sure my pride may be hurt but he's the one who's making himself look like a fool.

Again, I'll say that by all means, avoid the situation if possible. Do your best to either ignore or talk the situation down. After exhausting all those resources, if no other option is left than to fight, then defend yourself. The law will not frown upon that as much as if you didn't give it a shot. In addition, is it worth possibly getting shot because this guy didn't like you standing up to him? Sorry, but I don't want to take a bullet if I have the choice of not responding.

Mike

 

[Matt Stone]

...And becuase some people like to fight,or better yet...stand up against bullies,does NOT make you a bad person.

Not sure if that point was ever made... If we were all judged by our desire to stand up for the underdog, we'd all be ready for prosecution! I don't think that was ever in discussion.

I take offence at your statement of "you're not as dangerous as you think you are.None of us are".
Lawyer or not,you don't speak for me or anyone else for that matter.

His occupation doesn't factor into his comment... The simple truth is that a fair percentage of martial artists who believe they are "street lethal," or whatever other term they employ to convey the same meaning, plainly aren't. They do not engage in training that will adequately prepare them for the painful reality of a conflict with some outraged dip... And those who speak as though they are living weapons are often times the ones most ill equipped to defend themselves (much less others).

Firing at his occupation is kind of throwing punches in the dark hoping you'll hit something, don't you think? I didn't see BaiKaiGuy "speaking for" anyone, but rather making what is a fairly common observation (and one that I think may have been forgotten by our erstwhile thread starter...).

In my opinion,law has replaced the need for honor.

I would agree wholeheartedly. How many of us, and I mean all of us, have passed by without doing what would have been the right thing had we had the intestinal fortitude to truly take a stand for our convictions? I'll bet that every single person on this forum has opted for personal preservation over bearing the torch of righteousness over and over again in his/her life. Why? Because the law reinforces non-action. By acting, we intrude on the life of another, and that makes us the bad guy in many situations... Had we just shut our mouths and continued on our way, the situation wouldn't have arisen, correct? But at some point you have to draw a line in the sand, a line behind from which you will not, can not, retreat.

Unfortunately, the state of modern society is such that those honorable few who would be willing to stand for themselves and those unable to stand for themselves will find their honorable acts and intentions rewarded with fines, prison terms, and the stigma of having committed a criminal act... Unfortunate, but true. :idunno:

There ya go! jump to the wrong conclusion!

And he who has not sinned, let him cast the first stone...

There a lot of people out there who don't give a damn about the law and keep making victims until the law can accumulate enough evidence or whatever to put them away.

How many victims does that add up to these days?

Far too many in my opinion. I live in a country that has adopted a victim mentality for many things... Personal responsibility isn't respected, isn't recommended, and for that matter I question how many parents are even teaching it to their children! It is so easy to blame someone else for everything, rather than take the burden of responsibility squarely on one's own shoulders.

I agree, standing his ground was certainly called for. My original comment was simply that "as a martial artist" never should have entered into it... "As a public citizen" was as far as he had to go. I could ask "as a Command and Conquer player" and be in the same ballpark as to the appropriateness of my behavior. It is silly to say that "as a martial artist" he is necessarily obligated to refrain for being too "deadly" and unleashing his terrible wrath upon those who slight him... Rather, as a human being with honor, respect for others, and being obedient to the law, did he do the right thing? That is the more appropriate question...

It's not who you are on the inside that matters.It's what you do that defines who you are.

So you've seen Batman Begins, eh? It's a nice quote, I'll grant you that... But I wonder, and I mean no offense by this, did you quote the quote to make the point, or did you quote the quote thinking no one would recognize the reference?

Just curious...

Pax.

 

[shesulsa]

It's not who you are on the inside that matters.It's what you do that defines who you are.

Actually, it should be that who you are on the inside should dictate what you do. Both matter.

The difference between doing the honorable thing in today's society and being an out-and-out hoodlum is a fine line - that line is drawn by decency, common sense, and the law.

 

[Matt Stone]

Actually, it should be that who you are on the inside should dictate what you do. Both matter.

The difference between doing the honorable thing in today's society and being an out-and-out hoodlum is a fine line - that line is drawn by decency, common sense, and the law.

The quote came from the new Batman movie... Bruce Wayne's childhood girlfriend/play pal met up with him after he'd assumed his "rich playboy" persona, saw him with a couple of hot European model-types swimming in the fountain of a hotel that Bruce bought to shut up the manager, and chided him for his reckless behavior. Bruce tried to tell her (he'd already started being Batman at this point) that he was something else inside and that what people saw him doing wasn't really him. She shut him up by saying that what you are deep inside (meaning hidden away, never acted upon) isn't important, that a person's actions define them.

In this discussion it is an appropriate quote (to a degree), because believing in all the ethical/moral code of honor mumbo jumbo is one thing, acting on it is certainly quite another...

 

[swiftpete]

So you've seen Batman Begins, eh? It's a nice quote, I'll grant you that... But I wonder, and I mean no offense by this, did you quote the quote to make the point, or did you quote the quote thinking no one would recognize the reference?

Just curious...

Pax.

 

[first123class]

How sure were you that you can kick his ***?

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

The other thing you did wrong was have a MA sticker on your car. That gave your potential opponent more information about you than you had about him.

If it did come down to a physical confrontation, you would have less of the element of surprise.