My intense citizens arrest

[BloodMoney]

Well, ive never placed anyone under citizens arrest before Sunday. And I must say it was rather intense.

I work in a mall. Theres been a gang of guys going round in a stolen car ripping off iPod Touches, cops estimate theyve stolen tens of thousands of dollars worth of goods. They work in a group, have a driver waiting in a stolen car etc. They've been quite successful. Apparently on Sunday they had just targeted a big store in the city, before coming out to the suburbs to try their luck at some malls.

Wrong mall Guys ended up with three off duty cops and two martial artists (me and another guy) chasing after them lol.

It all started with them running past my store in a big crash of yelling and things being knocked over. I was training a new employee and he musta got a fright cause suddenly I just sprinted out of the shop. I run regularly and practice sprints etc so I easily overtook the 5 or 6 people chasing them and caught up with them. One broke right through some doors, people in tow, the other went left and was faster than the other, so I stuck to him. A cop also yelled "off duty police, STOP!" at him, to no avail, so I just sprinted as hard as I could, using the path he created (rather violently) through the people to stay on his tail.

He used rugby style sidestepping and blocks, and completely nailed any bystanders in his way, tipped over display stands etc. Ive NEVER seen someone run so desperately (and I later found out why, see above) so I actually thought he'd committed a more serious crime than just robbery. Just as I caught up to him at the automatic doors he running shoved an 80yr women head first into a concrete pot plant and some chairs, knocking her out and several other people over (the ambulance took her away later and she had to be hospitalized). To be honest this really made me angry (I was right behind him and saw the force with which he did it) and so I just jumped over her and kept chasing him (some have said that was mean, but other people were there to help her and I wasnt about to let him get away).

He sprinted across the road incredibly dangerously and I almost lost him (wasnt prepared to just run into a major road so had to wait to cross). I caught back up with him and we both jogged along for ages up the road, about 80 meters apart. I looked back and noticed it was just me and him and we had left the other pursuers behind. I started taunting him, calling out to him trying to get in his head (self defense/security is 80% psychological 20% physical in my opinion) saying "I can run like this all day man", "Your not getting away mate, I'm not going to stop", "Hows your cardio buddy?" etc...just trying to psych him out.

Next minute the off duty cop comes screeching up in his black SUV and starts herding the guy, slowing him down, helping me out which was awesome (and more than can be said for the 300+ people that did nothing to stop him despite several of us yelling "Stop him! Stop him!" in a crowded mall). This forced the crim to run off to the side, and I beelined after him. He sprinted out of site and into some residential properties.

About 4 or 5 people started catching up, including another TWO off duty police officers (bad luck for him, thats what you get for daylight robbery in a packed mall on a Sunday). They all scattered, running down the different roads that bisected at the intersection, the off duty cop running round the back of the houses. I stood there as they ran off and thought he probably hadnt gone far, given I was gassed and he wasnt as fit as me.

I just pictured I was up the hills with the boys on a nice sunny day hunting deer and started trying to sniff him out. I stopped and listened quietly and couldnt hear him jumping fences, so I knew he was probably around. For some reason I just instinctively went off from everyone else (no point us all running round together) and started quietly sneaking up this ladies driveway. Man I wanted to get him so bad, I just felt psyched up and (probably quite unwisely in hindsight) no fear, I just wanted to get him no matter what. I quietly opened the gate to the back of the property and walked slowly round the back, and sure enough there he was. It was like that feeling when youve seen sign of a deer, its **** and hoof prints etc, but not the deer, then you suddenly stumble on one...you kinda dont expect it to actually be there, like its not real, its not possible.

He had his hands on his knees and head down, clearly gassed, and had discarded his distinctive top, and he hadnt seen me. As he would have had to go through me or over the fence I just stood there and folded my arms. He looked up and turned white, it was like hed seen a ghost he was just shocked to see me standing there. I could see the scales of fight or flight weighing in his mind, so decided to tip them a bit as it was just me and him there and a cornered crim is a dangerous one. I said "if you run again I'm going to knock you the ***** out, just sit down and wait for the cops" and he thought about this for about half a second and decided he didnt want to fight me, so he sprinted for the fence to get away.

I just tackled into him and threw my arm around his neck, he tried to turn out of it but I just turned with him, round and round, while dropping my weight down (he was probably 15kg heavier than me) to bring him down. He went to one knee and I slapped a rear naked choke on him. He tried standing so I just dragged him backwards and half lay him down. I dropped to my knees and "locked off" the submission (one arm choke is okay but you wanna slide your hand down behind the back of his head). As soon as I did this he snorted real loudly and I knew I had it on. I said "resist and ill put you to sleep" and he tried to get up, I just stood up so the noose of my choke had all his body weight hanging off it and his feet just scrambled. I knelt down behind him and tried to remain calm, I knew he lacked the training to escape the sub (to be honest once youve got someone locked down like that its even hard for a jits practitioner to get out of, a BJJ'er just wouldnt get in such a noob position in the first place). I called out "I'm here, ive got him!" to the cops so they could here.

He started spasming a bit and going limp, so I relaxed the move. He resisted right away and I held him down saying "dude this is a brazilian jiu jitsu choke, it is cutting off your carotid arteries-" etc etc, just talking him through what was happening, once again trying to intimidate him. He struggled some more so I cranked it on as hard as I possibly could (ive never put a rear naked choke on anyone so hard in my life - you just dont do that to your training buddies, also theyd just tap). His neck clicked weirdly and he went a bit limp and I was like **** ive broken him.... oops. The two off duty cops showed up and had a bit of a chuckle. One look pretty surprised and said something like "youve got some balls mate" and I said "yeah im ex security and ive done some training". They took him off my hands rather roughly and one of them cranked a shoulder lock/wrist control on him. They were both off duty and one showed me his badge. They roughed him up a bit which was quite amusing, I looked down at him and said "stay the ***** outta my mall" and I think he got the picture, seeing as he was a grown man and was blubbering by now.

The cops thanked me, I stuck around and directed the uniformed officers to the scene, then went back to work. Mall security think I'm a bit of a psycho I think (cause none of them ha the balls to do ANYTHING include even run after them) but all the shopkeepers, cleaners etc think I'm a legend lol. They showed me the footage of the chase through the mall, looked pretty intense. I had to fill out a police report etc but yeah, other than that...back to work as usual.

My wife wasnt too impressed lol. She said "he coulda had a knife, he coulda punched you out" etc etc but too be honest I wasnt thinking of any of that at the time. I just said "lots of things could have happened, but they didnt, and thats why I train" and I think she understood, but she still wasnt very happy...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It does sound intense, and I am glad the bad guy got arrested and that you were not injured.

Pursuant to what your wife said...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20023943-504083.html

AUGUSTA, Ga. (CBS/AP) A U.S. Marine reservist collecting toys for children was stabbed when he helped stop a suspected shoplifter outside an eastern Georgia Best Buy.
The store's sales manager, Orvin Smith, told The Augusta Chronicle that a man was seen on surveillance cameras Friday putting a laptop under his jacket at the Augusta store.
When confronted, the man became irate, knocked down an employee, pulled a knife and ran toward the door. Outside were four Marines collecting toys for the service branch's "Toys For Tots" program.
Smith said the Marines stopped the man, but he stabbed one of them, Cpl. Phillip Duggan, in the back. The cut did not appear to be severe.

In the USA, many security people have been terminated by their employers when pursuing shoplifters outside the confines of the store. As strange as that sounds, there are reasons for this.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I'd like to second what Bill said.
First of all, great job.
Second, take care not to get killed
Good work.

 

[Balrog]

...snip...
The cops thanked me, I stuck around and directed the uniformed officers to the scene, then went back to work. Mall security think I'm a bit of a psycho I think (cause none of them ha the balls to do ANYTHING include even run after them) but all the shopkeepers, cleaners etc think I'm a legend lol. They showed me the footage of the chase through the mall, looked pretty intense.

Dude - outstanding!

And you gotta get a copy of the footage and put in YouTube. This is a must-do!!

 

[Disco]

Two thumbs up for your determination and courage. Many moons ago, we did stuff like that in this country and we had a better place to live. Not that way any more though and now were overrun with gangs and thugs and lots of crime, because we've been stripped of the right thing to do by lawyers and the courts (actually one and the same). Hope NZ doesn't follow in our foot steps........:cheers: Here's to you, good job!

 

[Steve]

Two thumbs up for your determination and courage. Many moons ago, we did stuff like that in this country and we had a better place to live. Not that way any more though and now were overrun with gangs and thugs and lots of crime, because we've been stripped of the right thing to do by lawyers and the courts (actually one and the same). Hope NZ doesn't follow in our foot steps........:cheers: Here's to you, good job!

There is no amount of product in a store worth risking your life over. More importantly, there is no amount of product in a store worth potentially escalating a situation to the point where a lot of people are in danger. I think that this story was rash, dangerous and very unwise.

There's a big difference between a situation where bad guys are stealing product and where bad guys are threatening people. People are worth protecting. Product is not.

Or said another way, if you are in a situation where a thief has stolen something from you or your store, you've already failed. Preventing theft, particularly in the store, is very achievable. The best deterrent to theft is excellent customer service.

 

[oaktree]

In the security course I took for my security license we are told never to run after a suspect we are told to observe and report. We were also told to never go after a suspect by ourselves.

What did the suspect steal a $200 Ipod touch? Was chasing after this suspect for $200 mechadise really worth sending an old lady to the hospital?


When you placed the guy choking him and you are on the company clock(even if you are not) and he explains this to his lawyer it may be possible you loose your job, you get sued the company gets sued too because of your action.

We were taught to never hold a suspect either because of the legal complications involved.

You are very fortunate you are ok because I have heard plenty of stories of people doing the same thing and being killed.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Two thumbs up for your determination and courage. Many moons ago, we did stuff like that in this country and we had a better place to live. Not that way any more though and now were overrun with gangs and thugs and lots of crime, because we've been stripped of the right thing to do by lawyers and the courts (actually one and the same). Hope NZ doesn't follow in our foot steps........:cheers: Here's to you, good job!

Well, you also had slaves and beat your wives, and suspicion of guilt was good enough to break out the BBQ and start a good lynching. The old days had their problems too. On the whole, I think a state of law is preferable over vigilante justice.

Also this was an arrest (which is a good thing) and not a lynching (which is a bad thing, and the thing of which you have been stripped)

 

[oaktree]

Attorneys for a deaf man taken down and choked to blueness by aForever 21 security guard at the Hollywood and Highland Center in Hollywood threatened to sue the fashion retailer if it doesn't come up with a satisfactory settlement offer, according to ABC7.
The chain suspended theguard after the mid-August incident was caught on tape and posted on YouTube. The victim, Alejandro Rea, was alleged to have set off asecurity alarm as he exited. He apparently refused requests to stop although we can now see why -- he's deaf. Even as his also deaf brother Pablo Rea motioned frantically to tell theguard his sibling couldn't hear, the UFC-style take-down continued.

http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2010/08/forever_21_security_suit.php


Here is the video on Youtube.

The lady who was injured at the mall and went to the hospital maybe she can sue you and your company as well for not following proper procedures and putting her at risk.

Not saying it will happen but it is something to think about the legal consquences that can occur when doing these type of things.

 

[girlbug2]

First, I can't say I'm unhappy that you caught the BG, so kudos for being in shape for the chase and having the sense of social responsibility to put yourself on the line in order to help.

OTOH, as others have pointed out, somebody was seriously hurt as the result of that chase, and IMO that wasn't worth saving a few hundred dollars of product. In my country that lady could not only sue the BG, but also you for endangering her. Not to mention what could have happened to you if the BG had been armed..perhaps it would have been smarter not to have pursued him beyond the mall.

I noticed you've made a few offhand remarks about the passersby and onlookers who didn't do anything--well in their defense, they are human. First, they may not have realized what was going on; yes, they may have heard "Stop Him", but it takes a moment for people to assess the situation to really understand what is happening and what they can do to help, if anything. By which time, the BG could easily have passed them up. Second, many people wouldn't have been in shape to do anything about it, or known what the heck to do. Third, he could have been armed. You think untrained civilians generally want to confront a desperate, possibly armed suspect? I think it's unfair to blame them for not jumping out in front of the fleeing criminal, all things considered.

 

[DarkShadowfax]

Good job catching the bad guy.
Don't get yourself killed though.

 

[Bruno@MT]

There is one thing that imo you did do wrong, and that is post your account here on MT, the way you did. There are several things 'wrong' with your account that could land you (or your bosses) in legal trouble, as well as make it possible for the thief to file complaints against the police.

you say they roughed him up a little, and that you think it was funny. Bad thing. You have just painted yourself as an inconsiderate thug, as well as porvided evidence for police brutality. Not saying I don't see your point or how your words have to be put in context of the situation, but you are just giving his d efense lawyersome perfect ammunition

You say you choked him much harder than you ever did (you cranked as hard as you could), and that you thought for a moment his neck had snapped, and you made a remark to indicate that you didn't think it was a big problem (I was like **** ive broken him.... oops). Honestly, these are really not smart things to say, and again, if this is going to end up in court, you have just brought a heap of trouble onto yourself.

The 'stay the **** out of my mall' remark likewise can be used to paint you as a thug on a power trip.

Just to get this straight, I am not disagreeing with anything you did. But posting it on the internet in this fashion is a really bad idea imo. If I were you, I'd ask one of the mods to edit your post and change the wording to something more diplomatic, or ask them to delete the entire thread. I don't want to dampen your mood, but you'll be a lot unhappier if you have to explain that post in front of a defense lawyer with an axe to grind.

 

[jks9199]

There's an excellent write up of the incident involving the Marine at Budo Blog.

I applaud your courage and public mindedness to assist -- but you also took a number of risks. Some of these may be different in NZ than in the USA, but the general safety risks remain, even if the legal liability doesn't. One simple thought: what if he'd led you into an ambush with his buddies?

 

[Steve]

I'll just go on record as saying that I am skeptical that this story happened at all, or if it did, that it happened as described. I've been wrong before, but the story reads more like fan fiction than fact.

 

[BloodMoney]

I'll just go on record as saying that I am skeptical that this story happened at all, or if it did, that it happened as described. I've been wrong before, but the story reads more like fan fiction than fact.

There is no amount of product in a store worth risking your life over. More importantly, there is no amount of product in a store worth potentially escalating a situation to the point where a lot of people are in danger. I think that this story was rash, dangerous and very unwise.

Im quite surprised this coming from a BJJ practitioner. Im only a white belt (actually my club just gave me my blue tab two days after this incident - woohoo) and I could easily choke out an untrained guy...surely youve rolled with beginners on their first day? This guy had no idea how to fend me off, it was incredibly easy for me to control him safely and minimizing injury to both myself and him.

Re escalating the situation, it was already escalated. Read the post. Many people were chasing him, including several off duty police officers shouting at the top of their voices. The only time I was continuing the pursuit by myself was when it was just me and him running way up the road alone, with no one around. I couldnt give a ***** about what he stole (wasnt even from my store as I said) it was the fact that he hurt random people that pissed me off, and I didnt want him to get away with it.

Dude - outstanding!

And you gotta get a copy of the footage and put in YouTube. This is a must-do!!

Yeah the security guards showed me and told me more than they should have, so wasnt going to then try and get them to upload the footage lol. Plus it only showed the chase through the mall, not up the road etc

It does sound intense, and I am glad the bad guy got arrested and that you were not injured.

Pursuant to what your wife said...

In the USA, many security people have been terminated by their employers when pursuing shoplifters outside the confines of the store. As strange as that sounds, there are reasons for this.

Yeah, fair call, I see were shes coming from. There are stabbings etc here in NZ but its not as bad as some countries ive been to (Australia, let alone the States, is worse). Also good thing I'm not a security guard, or I probably would have been fired. My regional manager was quite the opposite. She said I was a legend and bought me a beer SO yeah wont be getting fired in a hurry.

There is one thing that imo you did do wrong, and that is post your account here on MT, the way you did. There are several things 'wrong' with your account that could land you (or your bosses) in legal trouble, as well as make it possible for the thief to file complaints against the police.

you say they roughed him up a little, and that you think it was funny. Bad thing. You have just painted yourself as an inconsiderate thug, as well as porvided evidence for police brutality. Not saying I don't see your point or how your words have to be put in context of the situation, but you are just giving his d efense lawyersome perfect ammunition

You say you choked him much harder than you ever did (you cranked as hard as you could), and that you thought for a moment his neck had snapped, and you made a remark to indicate that you didn't think it was a big problem (I was like **** ive broken him.... oops). Honestly, these are really not smart things to say, and again, if this is going to end up in court, you have just brought a heap of trouble onto yourself.

The 'stay the **** out of my mall' remark likewise can be used to paint you as a thug on a power trip.

Just to get this straight, I am not disagreeing with anything you did. But posting it on the internet in this fashion is a really bad idea imo. If I were you, I'd ask one of the mods to edit your post and change the wording to something more diplomatic, or ask them to delete the entire thread. I don't want to dampen your mood, but you'll be a lot unhappier if you have to explain that post in front of a defense lawyer with an axe to grind.

Thankfully I live in a country where you cant just sue and counter sue the ***** outta each other. In fact you cant sue people at all, you have to press charges through the police. He could press charges, but I'm not worried if he does.

In hindsight I can see some of my remarks were a bit cowboy, but to be fair its only just happened, I'd only just talked to the cop about it again refreshing it, so I was still a bit pumped over it.

I just put down honestly what happened, I left nothing out. I didnt paint myself as a saint, and yes I might have been a bit inappropriate, but the reality is I actually handled it in a very restrained way. I deliberately didnt use my 10+ years of Chun to strike him (far more effective at taking someone out than Jits) instead I opted to use an art I am only a white belt in, endangering myself just so I could minimize lethality to the criminal, by using grappling to submit him and hold him for the police. As soon as I realized the choke was effecting him too much I laxed it off. The taunting and verbal exchange was me attempting to win the war by words, and have him just give up without any fight. Telling someone to "stay out of my mall" is warranted, I wanted to intimidate him so he didnt ever come back and mess with me.

He didnt have a weapon, I could see, and mentally I had won the psychological war which is half of it (if not more). I could see he knew he'd already lost, and I knew I could easily subdue him (otherwise I wouldve used Chun, or ran off if he'd pulled a knife). I understand where many of you are coming from, and I wouldnt advocate to my students to go chasing criminals, but the reality is I havent trained in unarmed combat since the age of 10 just to let dumb homeboys just trample over people right in front of me and get away scott free. The cop even said if it wasnt for me they wouldnt have got him, and who knows what he could have done next. I'm very proud of my actions and have no regrets whatsoever, and would do it again in a heartbeat. I'm sick of living in a society where people just stand around and do nothing. People have been beaten in broad daylight in the middle of the city and no one has done anything. Thats just not me, I'm not a vigilante crimefighter, but I'm not just going to stand by while criminals do whatever they please.

 

[Disco]

"Well, you also had slaves and beat your wives, and suspicion of guilt was good enough to break out the BBQ and start a good lynching. The old days had their problems too. On the whole, I think a state of law is preferable over vigilante justice."

Great response and hits right to the heart of the subject...........I can't even fathom why such a response was even in your head, unless you have a hidden racial agenda.

The so-called state of law you subscribe to is in fact a money game and justice may only be a byproduct after the fact. Nobody wants a vigilante society, but in reality that's what you almost have. The Police and Judicial system are a reactive entity. When something is happening to you or yours, your not going to wait for someone else to arrive and stop it, your going to attempt to stop it yourself, if your able. It's either that or you let the bad guys have their way, get away and now allow them the opportunity to do it again to someone else or even show up again at your place, because you've allowed yourself to become an easy target. It's this totally permissive mindset that has permeated society and has allowed thugs, dopers, gangs and so on to run rampant in just about all areas of the country. We sit on this forum and talk about training and different types and for what? to bolster ego's? When somebody actually does employ any part of their training, then folks like you come out and offer something totally off the wall and others can only see the negative aspects of the situation because that's what they have been programed to see. So the moral of this is that using your training is just a waste of time and you only stand the chance of being sued for side effects. Take a good hard look at just what we've become in this country..............If your honest, it ain't pretty!!

 

[BloodMoney]

I just had a friend say "man that sounds dangerous, you should have let the off duty police officers deal with it".

My response (and it goes well to answer some thoughts here):

I am fitter than cops are (beat cops not Special Tactical units). Cops just dont do the conditioning training I do, I'm sorry, but its true I know their curriculum (an ex student of my masters wrote it for them many years ago). The government cant afford a PT for each cop, and to put them through expensive cross training etc, nor does the average officer have enough time.

I am better trained in unarmed combat than (most) cops. Once again, your average cop cant spend 6 days a week every night training in martial arts. I saw the off duty officers technique when he arm barred the crim, and almost instinctively corrected him before I realized that was probably not the right time ("I can see youve got him there, but just turn his thumb up and control his hand and wrist, not just wrist"...lol yeah not going to start saying that to a cop).

The reason I got the criminal is because I out ran the cops. I out copped the cops, and held him down waiting for them to come pick him up. Not sure what they would have done any differently (if theyd caught him at all, which judging by their cardio, wasnt going to happen).

 

[Tez3]

Are you sure you can't sue in NZ? I've just been looking at a NZ law website and you are still liable to civil proceedings in a citizens arrest if things go wrong. I'd check if I were you, that old lady may be looking for damages if in fact as Steve says this is a real scenerio.

You seem to have actually quite a bad opinion of police officers who while they may not be as fit or as knowledgable about martial arts as you, certainly far more experienced in apprehending criminals and have vastly more knowledge of the law than you, all of which, despite what you may think, is actually more important than your MA and fitness. the police aren't stupid, they know how to go about these things causing as little damage as possible to by standers.
As has been said before you can denigrate the passers-by behaviour but they didn't make the situation worse.

Out running the cops is not a good thing, cops don't do it, they wait for back up. The last thing you want is to be on your own facing an armed criminal, the police have training, tactics and equipment.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Just as an aside, for those who complain that the USA is going to the dogs now that no one gets involved anymore...

I'd like to point out that things are not really different now, despite what people say about the "Good Old Days." There was a time not long ago when hooded men performed lynchings in public; how many 'good citizens' ran outside and confronted the Klan when they dragged men and women from their homes? Yeah, thought so.

Second, the crime rate has been dropping steadily in the USA since the 1990s in most parts of the country. The crime rate seems to get lower and lower each year. That's a fact, like it or not; so complaints that the criminals have taken over fall on deaf ears; it's demonstrably not true.

 

[Tez3]

Just as an aside, for those who complain that the USA is going to the dogs now that no one gets involved anymore...

I'd like to point out that things are not really different now, despite what people say about the "Good Old Days." There was a time not long ago when hooded men performed lynchings in public; how many 'good citizens' ran outside and confronted the Klan when they dragged men and women from their homes? Yeah, thought so.

Second, the crime rate has been dropping steadily in the USA since the 1990s in most parts of the country. The crime rate seems to get lower and lower each year. That's a fact, like it or not; so complaints that the criminals have taken over fall on deaf ears; it's demonstrably not true.

That's true here too but the fear of crime is something the politicians find irrestible for electioneering. 'Vote for us' and we'll clamp down on crime etc etc.

The UK used to be a hugely violent place with high crime, the 'good old days' were never that. I think crime just appears to have risen because of better communications, we hear now all about violent crimes everywhere, murders in America, Australia etc are on our news now whereas before we wouldn't have even heard about a murder two counties along.