Must not visit other schools without permission?

[Buka]

When I was a young martial artist, if my instructor didn't want me going someplace else, I would have followed his rules because I loved training in the dojo I was in. Whatever the rules were in my dojo, I followed them. To a fricken letter.

Years later, while running my own school, I encouraged my students to visit as many dojos as they could. (I also taught them what I thought was proper etiquette in visiting schools) I had a list of dojos on the wall with phone numbers, addresses and some with contact names. I brought a lot of instructors (friends of mine from Karate) into our dojo to teach a class or two in their respective style. I wanted the students to see what was out there. I wanted them to know that what we did wasn't the only way to train/approach martial arts. We often went on road trips to other schools. Some students found other martial arts that were far better suited to them. Some had long, good careers in those styles and it worked to everyone's advantage.

I had a couple advanced students over the years that I had to sit down and have a long talk with. They were developing so fast, they were starting to stagnate at our dojo. I could no longer offer them what I thought they needed. So I hooked them up with different teachers of mine, or with some friends from other styles. It all worked out great, we are all better friends and students of the arts because of it.

We had an open door policy. Especially for Thursday nights, which were always sparring night. We always had folks who came and sparred, some for five or ten years. Some of their teachers didn't want them to be taking classes, but didn't mind them coming down to spar. I'm not exactly sure what I would have done had their instructor forbade them to come. I think I would have let them anyway.

In a Jiu-jitsu school I trained in for some time - one of the advanced blue belts, who had been teaching beginners for some time (one of the best instructors I've known) moved to Brazil for four years, strictly for training. When he came back, he was an even better instructor. He still taught classes, but the Black Belt in charge would never spar with him again, or ever test him for another belt. It was all quite uncomfortable for me to experience.

Sometimes, a rule that forbids students to train elsewhere is a business decision. Sometimes it's politics. Sometimes it's meant so the student won't confuse/muddy the particular art. I don't know if it's good or bad, I guess it depends on the particulars. But for me and mine, just train.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have seen this mentality in most systems at some point or with a certain instructor. Personally in IRT I want practitioner's to experience a lot of different training so I would encourage them to go out and train with whomever they can. That includes both the good and the bad. Good expeirences as well as bad experiences help to build a martial practitioiner and allows them eventually to differentiate between the two. That eventuality is the key though as someone who just bounces around will have a long road ahead of them filled with mediocrity at best. So while training with lots of other people is great you also have to be firmly practicing your systems Martial Sciences. What I have always tried to do is to bring in fantastic guest instructors monthly so that IRT practitioner's can experience other methodology as well as other peoples teaching style. Over time they develop the ability to go with the flow and their skill sets improve radically. Trying to control any fellow practitoiner is a waste of anyones time and will eventually lead to very bad feelings which I personally have witnessed in several systems!

 

[punisher73]

I don't know. Can a student learn both tennis and table-tennis and play both correctly? The games are similar enough that there is room for confusion, but the body mechanics are completely different.

In fact, it is entirely possible to learn both correctly. Of course, the student needs to know that the techniques and body mechanics of one will not apply to the other. Also, if the student spends 3 hours per week practicing each sport he/she will not progress as fast as if he/she spent 6 hours per week in just one. That's the tradeoff.

If a student is actively training two different arts with incompatible body mechanics at the same time, then the teacher should let the student know that it is necessary to keep the two separate, at least until the student has internalized the principles of each art.

I would argue that you could learn tennis and table tennis at the same time because they are sports. You are learning them to put your safety on the line. If your goal isn't personal safety and you are in it for physical activity or moving meditation or just self betterment, then conflicting body mechanics aren't an issue. But, if you want to get to the upper levels of an art, it is imperative that those mechanics become reflexive in nature. Having conflicting mechanics will just add confusion and conscious thought to respond, which is what you don't want in a self-defense situation.

That's a widespread romantic notion, but I don't know if there's a lot of historical truth to it. I know that the business of making a living by teaching martial arts goes back quite a long ways in Japan. I don't know how far back it goes in China, but it certainly goes back to a point before the CMA were widely taught to westerners.

I was basing that on Okinawan methods pre-WW2. After the war, many okinawans got government contracts to teach US soldiers and training methods also changed. But, even then "no visiting" would have been a good rule because in a war torn country the loss of money meant no food on your table to support your family. You didn't want to lose students to someone else.

 

[pgsmith]

I think y'all have missed what the original post was about. Here's a quote ...

They also had a rule about not visiting other martial arts schools without the instructor's permission.

This does not say that visiting other schools is forbidden, doesn't even imply it. All it says is that the instructor wants to know and approve where you are planning on visiting. While I fully understand that this is still too restrictive for some, it is far different than forbidding students from visiting or training in other dojo.

 

[Steve]

Does anyone here speak more than one language? For those who do, do you find it difficult to transition from one language to another? Even when those languages are closely related, such as say Spanish and Portuguese? How about learning two different languages at the same time? Kids do it in bilingual households all the time.

What they've found with these kids is that it does take them, on average, a little longer to become fluent in the languages that they're speaking. In other words, there is some amount of confusion as they sort out which language is which. But, in the end, they reach a level of complete fluency in both in MUCH less time than it would take to learn one language completely and then move onto another.

It's about how we learn, and while we approach learning differently, the way that we process information as human beings is largely universal, regardless of subject. Martial arts have a lot in common with learning a language or learning sports. Whether the sports are similar, such as ping pong and tennis, or radically different, the idea that by splitting time between two styles doubles the time to proficiency is flawed. It just doesn't pan out. It will certainly take longer to reach a level of expertise, but in the end, the person studying two styles concurrently will become proficient in two styles much faster than someone who does it otherwise.

Of course, there is some play in this as we are all different.

Edit: I just want to add that this myth about cross-training is also common in bilingual households, where non-english speaking parents sometimes insist that their children learn only English for fear that learning the native language at the same time will inhibit their learning, which has been shown to be untrue in multiple studies.

 

[WCman1976]

We had this in our school...sort of. I mean, if you are just a casual visitor to Sifu's school, then he can't stop you from checking out another place. And it wasn't that he didn't want you visiting other schools. (I would go back to my judo and wushu schools to visit because I had friends there still.) What he didn't want us doing was sharing wing chun techniques with people from other schools. In our area, there is an unfortunate rash of martial arts schools where they are teaching techniques that they really don't know. It wouldn't be any surprise if I showed somebody a wing chun technique once, and then they tried teaching it the next day as if they were masters at it.

 

[WC_lun]

I think there is a difference between teaching stuff (particularly stuff you are not qualified to teach, and visiting another school. The forst definitley crosses the line, but I don't believe the second does.

 

[Carol]

There is a huge difference. Visiting another school can mean participating in a kick-a-thon for charity, or seeing a 75 year old MA legend give what may be his last seminar, or simply taking a friend up on their offer to stop by when you are in town.

 

[Cougar]

As previously stated, some instructors/organizations have a hard rule against cross-training and visiting other schools. The organization I formerly associated with was that way. Whether it is for maintaining control of a student to prevent confusion, injury or defection, it is mostly lost in today's MA arena, in my opinion. My students are encouraged to check out other schools/systems to see if they find something they would like to add to their store of knowledge. If it results in a lost student, then maybe I was not providing that student with what they needed and I wish them well and make sure they understand they are welcome to visit or come back if they choose to. I have no worries about the quality of what I teach or the effectiveness of the technique. But environments differ from school to school and instructor to instructor.

 

[lklawson]

The last time I saw detailed statistics on martial arts student turnover, the data indicated that the vast majority of students who leave a school do so for reasons beyond the control of the instructor such as suddenly reduced income or moving.

While "Customer Retention" is important for any business, apparently in martial arts, "New Customer Acquisition" is more important than Customer Loyalty.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[punisher73]

Does anyone here speak more than one language? For those who do, do you find it difficult to transition from one language to another? Even when those languages are closely related, such as say Spanish and Portuguese? How about learning two different languages at the same time? Kids do it in bilingual households all the time.

What they've found with these kids is that it does take them, on average, a little longer to become fluent in the languages that they're speaking. In other words, there is some amount of confusion as they sort out which language is which. But, in the end, they reach a level of complete fluency in both in MUCH less time than it would take to learn one language completely and then move onto another.

It's about how we learn, and while we approach learning differently, the way that we process information as human beings is largely universal, regardless of subject. Martial arts have a lot in common with learning a language or learning sports. Whether the sports are similar, such as ping pong and tennis, or radically different, the idea that by splitting time between two styles doubles the time to proficiency is flawed. It just doesn't pan out. It will certainly take longer to reach a level of expertise, but in the end, the person studying two styles concurrently will become proficient in two styles much faster than someone who does it otherwise.

Of course, there is some play in this as we are all different.

Edit: I just want to add that this myth about cross-training is also common in bilingual households, where non-english speaking parents sometimes insist that their children learn only English for fear that learning the native language at the same time will inhibit their learning, which has been shown to be untrue in multiple studies.

What's interesting is that in my experience in law enforcement, when bilingual people were very emotionally upset or amped up because of a situation, they fell back to the base language that was spoken at home. So, if the first language they learned was spanish that is what came out. Then there would be a mix of the two languages as they tried to speak the other language but under pressure couldn't do both. I've never done a formal study on it, or found a study that studied it, so my "sample size" is very limited. But, I think that very well translates into physical expressions when confronted in a high stress situation.

 

[Carol]

What's interesting is that in my experience in law enforcement, when bilingual people were very emotionally upset or amped up because of a situation, they fell back to the base language that was spoken at home. So, if the first language they learned was spanish that is what came out. Then there would be a mix of the two languages as they tried to speak the other language but under pressure couldn't do both. I've never done a formal study on it, or found a study that studied it, so my "sample size" is very limited. But, I think that very well translates into physical expressions when confronted in a high stress situation.

I am bilingual, and I have seen that myself -- but I also think it depends on a person's training and experience.

A subject a police officer might encounter may not have much experience communicating under such a circumstance. However, a bilingual police officer who must perform in an emotional or stressful situation would do a far better job at sticking to their second language (should the situation require that) than the average person who does not have to communicate in a high pressure environment. Not only does the police officer have training, they also have experience/requirement of doing it on a repeated basis.

The first few times I had to work through a network emergency entirely in my second language (Spanish) were extremely difficult. However, subsequent emergencies became easier. The emergencies themselves, the problems that had to be solved, did not necessarily get easier, but my ability to manage them in my second language became easier the more I did it. This was an important skill for me to develop -- in such an environment, my Latin American customers were NOT used to speaking in their second language and struggled with communicating the level of precision required to solve an engineering problem.

 

[Steve]

I am bilingual, and I have seen that myself -- but I also think it depends on a person's training and experience.

A subject a police officer might encounter may not have much experience communicating under such a circumstance. However, a bilingual police officer who must perform in an emotional or stressful situation would do a far better job at sticking to their second language (should the situation require that) than the average person who does not have to communicate in a high pressure environment. Not only does the police officer have training, they also have experience/requirement of doing it on a repeated basis.

The first few times I had to work through a network emergency entirely in my second language (Spanish) were extremely difficult. However, subsequent emergencies became easier. The emergencies themselves, the problems that had to be solved, did not necessarily get easier, but my ability to manage them in my second language became easier the more I did it. This was an important skill for me to develop -- in such an environment, my Latin American customers were NOT used to speaking in their second language and struggled with communicating the level of precision required to solve an engineering problem.

Just for clarification, are we talking about people who learned two languages at the same time, or people who learned a second language after having become fully fluent in a first one? If the latter, doesn't this further support the idea that concurrent training in multiple styles can actually be more effective than training to expertise in first one style and then another?

Once again, people are different, but there is a lot of research in how people learn, and in my professional experience in adult learning, I've never seen anything to suggest that adults learn any different than children, nor that we really learn one subject differently than another.

 

[pgsmith]

Once again, people are different, but there is a lot of research in how people learn, and in my professional experience in adult learning, I've never seen anything to suggest that adults learn any different than children, nor that we really learn one subject differently than another.

The problem is that you are talking about information in the brain. That is not what we're after in the martial arts, at least not in the arts that I practice. What we are after is not knowledge of the art, but an ability to move and react in accordance with the art without having to think first. This ability is gained through repetitive practice in an exacting manner.

It is a simple matter to learn that you should put your foot here, shift your weight this way, and pivot from the hips to properly deliver a given technique. It is something else again entirely to do all of that in a stressful situation without having to think about any of it. It is my opinion that the two actions, learning and doing, are entirely separate things.

 

[Steve]

The problem is that you are talking about information in the brain. That is not what we're after in the martial arts, at least not in the arts that I practice. What we are after is not knowledge of the art, but an ability to move and react in accordance with the art without having to think first. This ability is gained through repetitive practice in an exacting manner.

It is a simple matter to learn that you should put your foot here, shift your weight this way, and pivot from the hips to properly deliver a given technique. It is something else again entirely to do all of that in a stressful situation without having to think about any of it. It is my opinion that the two actions, learning and doing, are entirely separate things.

This isn't the problem you think it is. Do you drive a car? How often do you consciously think about putting on the turn signal? Or shifting the clutch? Everything moves through very easily defined, logical stages of understanding and functional expertise, whether it's language, music, martial arts, sports, driving or performing in a trade or craft professionally.

You're absolutely right that there's a difference between learning and doing. Learning is stage one. Knowledge. Stage two is Comprehension... meaning academic understanding. The keyboard warriors get this far. Stage three is Application. Doing.

Beyond doing, there are additional stages of understanding: Analysis, Synthesis and then finally Evaluation. Basically, analysis is where someone is able to adapt to different circumstances or deal with exceptions to rules. Synthesis is the stage you're referring to, where something is done without any effort or conscious thought. Evaluation, that's true mastery, where you're actually adept enough within a system or task that you can begin building on or improving it on a fundamental level.

This is a very quick explanation, but the point is that you're right, but Bloom's Taxonomy of learning is well known and has been around for a long time. I've been involved in professional training and adult learning for a long time, and I'm a firm believer that Bloom's Taxonomy is an excellent, logical, simple framework within which we can understand how people learn.

But there are aspects of training that Bloom's taxonomy doesn't address, including when, what and how much a person can learn at a time in order to bring them successfully from one stage of understanding to the next. In other words, how do we best take a person from comprehension to application? I'm suggesting basically that there are a lot of myths that exist, including the one that if you split your training among two styles, you are necessarily doubling your time to expertise both. I think this is untrue, and I provided an example of a similar situation that has been well documented. Not a lot of studies have been done on MA, but I think that we can learn a lot by looking at multi-lingual people, particularly kids who have learned languages simultaneously as opposed to learning a second language after becoming fluent in a first.

 

[Flying Crane]

Does anyone here speak more than one language? For those who do, do you find it difficult to transition from one language to another? Even when those languages are closely related, such as say Spanish and Portuguese? How about learning two different languages at the same time? Kids do it in bilingual households all the time.

What they've found with these kids is that it does take them, on average, a little longer to become fluent in the languages that they're speaking. In other words, there is some amount of confusion as they sort out which language is which. But, in the end, they reach a level of complete fluency in both in MUCH less time than it would take to learn one language completely and then move onto another.

It's about how we learn, and while we approach learning differently, the way that we process information as human beings is largely universal, regardless of subject. Martial arts have a lot in common with learning a language or learning sports. Whether the sports are similar, such as ping pong and tennis, or radically different, the idea that by splitting time between two styles doubles the time to proficiency is flawed. It just doesn't pan out. It will certainly take longer to reach a level of expertise, but in the end, the person studying two styles concurrently will become proficient in two styles much faster than someone who does it otherwise.

Of course, there is some play in this as we are all different.

Edit: I just want to add that this myth about cross-training is also common in bilingual households, where non-english speaking parents sometimes insist that their children learn only English for fear that learning the native language at the same time will inhibit their learning, which has been shown to be untrue in multiple studies.

I attempted to study Spanish and German at the same time while in college, and failed on both. Honestly, I'm not very good with learning languages so that might well have happened even if I was learning just one at a time.

Regarding martial arts... for a long time I trained in more than one system at the same time, White Crane and Kenpo. There were some similarities with regard to the fact that both systems would use a pivot to deliver the punches, but specifically how we did the pivot was fundamentally different. My attitude at the time was, well they are both pivots, so even tho the details are different, they still just reinforce each other so no problem. But there was a problem: Doing it one way, for one style, created bad habits for the other style. My kenpo practice actually did make my white crane worse, and my white crane practice did make my kenpo not right. My white crane sifu would say, "no you are doing it wrong, that is poor technique." My kenpo teacher would say, "why are you doing it like that? That's not how we do it." What I was doing was delivering technique in a way that wasn't quite proper method for either white crane or kenpo, even tho I thought I was making the proper transition from one to the other.

it's not so much about technique itself, as it is about HOW technique is delivered. This is where things can be very different from one system to another. If you divide your time between two or more methods of delivery then neither method develops to its potential, and you can confuse your body. It's just a punch, but which method do I use to deliver it? Best to decide which system works best for you and then focus your training to do everything in one uniform way.

edit to add another thought: my white crane sifu made it clear that he doesn't object if we choose to study another system with another teacher at the same time. That's our personal business. however, if it is interfering with or messing up our white crane training, then he says you gotta make a choice and decide what you want to study and how you want to spend your time. He doesn't have time or patience for people who aren't serious about their training with him. Sifu doesn't see a reason to waste his time on someone who isn't working hard to learn the best that he can. If training with another teacher, in another system is interfereing with that process, then it's time for you to go. Most people simply cannot do it and thrive in both systems, tho many believe that they can.

 

[MJS]

Earlier today I loaded up the website for a particular school, looking for some information.

After finding what I was looking for, I clicked on the link for the school's rules, just curious to see what they posted. There was a list of rules that you might expect...no cell phones on the mat, let the instructor know right away if you are hurt, etc. They also had a rule about not visiting other martial arts schools without the instructor's permission.

I have to admit, I have heard of this rule before but never quite understood it. Why the need for such a rule? Why would it be anyone's business if a student takes a seminar or visits a friend?

Discuss

I can think of a few reasons. 1) if you're a student of school A, visiting any other school, could be viewed as a potential loss. In other words, you may leave A for B. 2) Cross training could be frowned upon. 3) Some feel that doing more than 1 thing, will hinder the learning process.

Honestly, I've never had any issues with this in the past. My current teacher knows that I came from a Kenpo background. However, at this time, I've put my Kenpo on the back burner to focus on what I'm currently doing. I do Arnis privately, so its not really like I'm going to a school, per se. I make it to 3-4 classes a week now, so as long as anything else I do, doesnt hinder my training......however, while I'm inclinded to say what you do outside of class is your own business, I suppose it should be looked at on a case by case basis.