Muhammad cartoon

[Don Roley]

This will be a slow process, however, and they must do it THEMSELVES. Shock democracy or democracy imposed by gunpoint (invasion), will only, IMO, bring groups such as Hamas, The Islamic Brotherhood, and the folks like Sadr to eventual power.

The second part of your statement may be true. But I must say that by letting them do things themselves does not mean that we don't do anything.

Now the the door is open for a debate about religious tolerance and media control, we should pounce on it and press our case. If someone from that part of the world wants to come on an American talk show, we should not be on the defensive. We should not try to just explain that we can't stop someone from publishing these images. We should pull out the original clips of the stories about Jews using the blood of Muslims and Gentiles for a traditional food of theirs and say, "if you think people should respect you- why don't you give a good example by stopping this type of thing?"

I don't like the way people are feeling apologetic about this matter. In the world of Islam there is not much tolerance as we can see. We can't let them continue the offensive and apologize.

They want to talk about problems with the media? Let's put it all on the table.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

The second part of your statement may be true. But I must say that by letting them do things themselves does not mean that we don't do anything.

They want to talk about problems with the media? Let's put it all on the table.

True; I've been following the radical Islamicist press since before 9/11 and there are some REALLY bad folks out there spreading the most horrible distortions. This doesn't mean that the West has behaved particularly well in that region since WW1, but most of what I have read is just outright ridiculous.

We can put it on the table, but THEY won't. Most, if not all, of these Middle Eastern governments are ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIED of freedom of speech and press.

There just are no easy answeres here. That region of the world missed the Renaissance and Enlightenment and their people are enslaved by ruthless and corrupt dictatorships and those dictatorships have found it convenient to tolerate and even subsidize the anti-semitic and anti-western press.

Without the slow and steady growth of democratic TRADITIONS, extremist groups such as the Islamic Brotherhood and Hamas will simply use elections in the way the Nazis did in the late twenties and early thirties - use it first to gain power then destroy it.

 

[Carol]

There just are no easy answeres here. That region of the world missed the Renaissance and Enlightenment and their people are enslaved by ruthless and corrupt dictatorships and those dictatorships have found it convenient to tolerate and even subsidize the anti-semitic and anti-western press.

Certainly. Islam to those governments is not a faith, but a means of exerting total control over the citizenry.

Without the slow and steady growth of democratic TRADITIONS, extremist groups such as the Islamic Brotherhood and Hamas will simply use elections in the way the Nazis did in the late twenties and early thirties - use it first to gain power then destroy it.

Agreed. But a large stumbling block is education. A successful democracy depends on an educated electorate. In countries where education standards are not good, and are non existant for some citizen (ie: women) the growth of democratic traditions will be very slow and difficult. Can the process truly survive the growing pains and flourish? How patient will they be?

 

[Don Roley]

Agreed. But a large stumbling block is education. A successful democracy depends on an educated electorate. In countries where education standards are not good, and are non existant for some citizen (ie: women) the growth of democratic traditions will be very slow and difficult. Can the process truly survive the growing pains and flourish? How patient will they be?

I have to give a guarded agreement.

Too many people think that elections are the key to democracy. There was huge pressure on the Bush administration to hold elections in Iraq as part of this philosophy. The same goes for Palestine.

When you say "Education" I hear "The ability to be able to say what you want." Hence, I think that a free press is far more important than the ballot box.

To have a free society, you need not have only elections, but also individual rights, a free press and an independent legal system.

Too many people cry about the lack of elections in the middle east. We need to be screaming about the lack of a free press. With a free press, we can get new ideas in. And ideas are far more dangerous than any conventional weapon in the long term.

People pressure their senator to let elections go on in Muslim countries. Anyone want to take a look at recent Egyption elections? We should be telling our representatives to increase the amount of freedom of the press. Yes, we can expect a lot of what we don't want to be aired. But if we also try to set up alternative news groups such as the Voice of America we can at least start the battle that we need to fight.

In short, I would rather have a dictatorship with a free press than a democracy without free expression.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I have to give a guarded agreement.

Too many people think that elections are the key to democracy. There was huge pressure on the Bush administration to hold elections in Iraq as part of this philosophy. The same goes for Palestine.

When you say "Education" I hear "The ability to be able to say what you want." Hence, I think that a free press is far more important than the ballot box.

To have a free society, you need not have only elections, but also individual rights, a free press and an independent legal system.

Too many people cry about the lack of elections in the middle east. We need to be screaming about the lack of a free press. With a free press, we can get new ideas in. And ideas are far more dangerous than any conventional weapon in the long term.

People pressure their senator to let elections go on in Muslim countries. Anyone want to take a look at recent Egyption elections? We should be telling our representatives to increase the amount of freedom of the press. Yes, we can expect a lot of what we don't want to be aired. But if we also try to set up alternative news groups such as the Voice of America we can at least start the battle that we need to fight.

In short, I would rather have a dictatorship with a free press than a democracy without free expression.

Absolutely! That was the lesson of the Weimar Republic and the rise of the Nazis - elections without democratic TRADITIONS (free speech, free press, etc.) usually lead to extremists attaining power.

I sure would rather these nations have a free press and real education system for all rather than simply free elections. Too many people see democracy alone as the solution when in fact, absent a free press and real education, it acts as more as a solvent than a glue.

On edit: I know that Weimar had a free press, but Germany at that time did not have a true, longstanding democratic tradition.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Certainly. Islam to those governments is not a faith, but a means of exerting total control over the citizenry.

Islam, literally meaning 'Obedience to Allah' is useful that way.

Agreed. But a large stumbling block is education. A successful democracy depends on an educated electorate. In countries where education standards are not good, and are non existant for some citizen (ie: women) the growth of democratic traditions will be very slow and difficult. Can the process truly survive the growing pains and flourish? How patient will they be?

Both the secular governments and the religious fundamentalists have a vested interest in keeping secular education away from the masses. Sadly, those who take a more rational secular view, are often the targets of threats and violence.

 

[Makalakumu]

Islam, literally meaning 'Obedience to Allah' is useful that way.

Islam is not the only useful religion. Other religions too...including Christianity. The Roman Emperor Constantine "converted" and formed a state religion to control the masses. And it has served in its niche ever since.

Both the secular governments and the religious fundamentalists have a vested interest in keeping secular education away from the masses. Sadly, those who take a more rational secular view, are often the targets of threats and violence.

True, but this can also apply to anyone who favors a theocracy.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Does anyone remember the artist in New York a few years back that portrayed a cross in a jar full of urine as part of his exibit? I thought that was in bad taste too, but apparently he had the feedom to do it. The problem is that people have forgotten that with freedom comes personal responsibitly.

We should, as considerate beings, take into account the feelings of others and accept responsibility for the consequences of our actions. If terrorists use these cartoons as a tool to recruit or further their cause then the authors should be held responsible for that.

Also, if 'real-peacful' Muslims want to be mad about something, they should be mad at the terrorist that use their religion as a platform and excuse for homocide, suicide, and genocide. If they want to distance their religion from the way most of the world now views them, they should take a stand and clean up their own backyards and not tolerate it.

MHO =)

 

[dobermann]

this is so ridicilous.. i liked that phrase the best: ..while another shows him saying that paradise was running short of virgins for suicide bombers...

same with this dutch guy that got killed for making a film, pim whatever the name was. years ago it was salman rushdie they wanted to kill for writing a book.

these people should grow up! its a free world we live in, not a muslim one. me, rather being a spiritual than religious person, couldnt care less for some good fun on peoples believe. i dont do bombthreads or go and light up churches for the witnesses of jehova that just came round here the other day and "made fun" of my believes. i should have sent my dog after them tough!

 

[Kane]

Guys, I have to say that this Muhammad cartoon isn't the only thing Muslims are going crazy about. I was recreantly banned from a Muslim forum for stating that I created Mohammed in a WWE Smackdown game. Another reason why is because I disagreed with Muslims rioting over the cartoons. Many of these Muslims are very intolerant. But why is this? It is maybe because most Muslims are fundamentalists.

I have defended Muslims for a long time from many anti-muslim. My own father is an anti-muslim. I even told the forum the forum this and how much I defended it but they still banned me for not sharing the same opinion as me.

Although only a few Muslims are violent extremists, fundamentalist Islam is a major threat to the world. Just think how bad it was back when fundamentalist Christianity had such a hard grip on the world. Think the conquest of Americas, crusades, ect. This is basically what we are dealing with in modern times with fundamentalist Muslims. I have no problem with moderate abrahamics but these fundies can be a major threat.

The Muslims I talked to wanted to ban any type of picture of Muhammad being created. First piggy-banks and now this? It's getting ridiculous! I fear that our freedom if speech is threatened.

 

[Carol]

The Muslims I talked to wanted to ban any type of picture of Muhammad being created

It is against already against Sharia law to create a likeness of Muhammad. But in practice, this law gets politely overlooked when the likeness is favorable.

The cartoons were published in September of 2005. To the credit of the Islamic community, Muslim organizations in Denmark responded peacefully. The Muslim groups relied upon their freedom of speech to respond to the cartoons in October 2005:

A group of 16 Muslim organisations issued a statement on Wednesday demanding that Jyllands-Posten apologise for printing the drawings.

"The newspaper has with its action deliberately stepped on Islam's ethical and moral values with the purpose of contempt and ridiculing Muslims' feelings, their holy sites and their religious symbols," the group said.​

Full Article:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/66F847B8-DDE8-49A2-86B1-0D7015477090.htm

But the reason why we are talking about it now, isn't just about freedom of speech. Its about freedom of speech not being good enough because it didn't have the outcome that the fundamentalist Muslims wanted.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Guys, I have to say that this Muhammad cartoon isn't the only thing Muslims are going crazy about. I was recreantly banned from a Muslim forum for stating that I created Mohammed in a WWE Smackdown game. Another reason why is because I disagreed with Muslims rioting over the cartoons. Many of these Muslims are very intolerant. But why is this? It is maybe because most Muslims are fundamentalists.

I have defended Muslims for a long time from many anti-muslim. My own father is an anti-muslim. I even told the forum the forum this and how much I defended it but they still banned me for not sharing the same opinion as me.

Although only a few Muslims are violent extremists, fundamentalist Islam is a major threat to the world. Just think how bad it was back when fundamentalist Christianity had such a hard grip on the world. Think the conquest of Americas, crusades, ect. This is basically what we are dealing with in modern times with fundamentalist Muslims. I have no problem with moderate abrahamics but these fundies can be a major threat.

The Muslims I talked to wanted to ban any type of picture of Muhammad being created. First piggy-banks and now this? It's getting ridiculous! I fear that our freedom if speech is threatened.

We are a victim of our own overactive desire to appease and tolerate everyones behavior, no matter how irrational or dangerous that behavior is. We keep preaching to each other that we have to be 'tolerant'. Exactly WHAT are we going to decide we aren't going to tolerate?

I keep hearing the phrase 'It isn't all Muslims, it isn't all Muslims' and that may be true.....But just exactly how many Muslims is it? They have a right to practice their religion, but they do NOT have a right to come in to the western world, and begin dictating terms. More and more people are seeing this for the threat it is.

Paris burns, the Dutch embassy burns, Europe is starting to realize that they have a serious problem in their midst. It isn't even just terrorism from Al-Qaeda that is a threat to the western world. It's far greater than that. The problem with the majority of the Islamic world, is the idea of blind obedience to an anachronistic ideal.

 

[michaeledward]

One story that I have read on this subject, is that after the deaths during the Hajj, the media in Saudi Arabia started writing a number of articles about these cartoons. I guess it is being posited that Saudi Arabi is trying to change the subject from security and safety during the Hajj to anything else.

Watch for the Saudi flags in the protests.

 

[Carol]

The problem with the majority of the Islamic world, is the idea of blind obedience to an anachronistic ideal.

And perhaps if you were to ask a Muslim, they would use the word sumission. Islam = submission (only/fully) to Allah, Muslim = one who submits (only/fully) to Allah.

But is the ideal really that anachronistic? Lust for power and glory never seems to go out of style. And, as the dominating Muslim culture understands, the violent fundamentalists have been able to do what no other leaders of this era have been able to do: bring down a US presidency (as the Ayatollah did to Carter) or bomb the US mainland (9/11).

It seems like a masterful work of strategy. We will hurt you, so give us what we want.

 

[sgtmac_46]

And perhaps if you were to ask a Muslim, they would use the word sumission. Islam = submission (only/fully) to Allah, Muslim = one who submits (only/fully) to Allah.

But is the ideal really that anachronistic? Lust for power and glory never seems to go out of style. And, as the dominating Muslim culture understands, the violent fundamentalists have been able to do what no other leaders of this era have been able to do: bring down a US presidency (as the Ayatollah did to Carter) or bomb the US mainland (9/11).

It seems like a masterful work of strategy. We will hurt you, so give us what we want.

Oh, it very much is a masterful work of strategy....made more masterful because it plays to our weaknesses, i.e. our, in this case, fatal desire to be perceived as being 'tolerant' at all costs, and our fear of being labelled 'xenophobic' to the point that we will allow any behavior, no matter how intolerable it is.

Make no mistake, we have only seen the first inkling of what's coming. Europe will burn before this is over with. Perhaps the rest of us as well.

 

[Satt]

Oh, it very much is a masterful work of strategy....made more masterful because it plays to our weaknesses, i.e. our, in this case, fatal desire to be perceived as being 'tolerant' at all costs, and our fear of being labelled 'xenophobic' to the point that we will allow any behavior, no matter how intolerable it is.

Make no mistake, we have only seen the first inkling of what's coming. Europe will burn before this is over with. Perhaps the rest of us as well.

sgtmac_46, you are my new favorite poster. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I totally agree with you.

 

[Marginal]

Yes. Using AA style victimology as international policy is incredibly smart.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I usually try to avoid judging religions and religious people, but can anybody verify if this is true?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=20646

 

[michaeledward]

I usually try to avoid judging religions and religious people, but can anybody verify if this is true?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=20646

What does judging religioins and religious people have to do with this article?

 

[jdinca]

Hmm, there are riots all over the world, buildings have been burned and people have died. Over cartoons. Yet the muslim community has had no concern over publishing radically anti-semite, anti-christian articles and cartoons. I'm glad that the Muslim community has taken this opportunity to show us what a even handed, peaceful religion it is.

Question, why is it that the only condemnation from the American Muslim community has been in regards to the cartoons but nothing about the rioting, burning and deaths that have been caused by fellow muslims?