Movement towards Wing Chun in competition???

[dungeonworks]

Every now and again I search YouTube for Wing Chun full contact videos. It seems there are more and more being put up as well as MMA guys claiming Wing Chun.

Is it me, or does it seem like there is an increase of Chunner's that are seeking ways to enter sport fighting or to test skills in a controlled environment? There are a lot more available now than even six months ago. Some are pretty bad examples of bastardized kickboxing but still, I give respect to anyone that has the nuts to go full tilt and put themselves out there for critique. Do you guys think the popularity of MMA is luring __unner's out into the sport realm?

 

[KamonGuy2]

I think its a risky game to play. Sport is so much different from a fight with no rules. I know we all get tiored of hearing that argument, but its true. Having done both (sport and streetfights), I can honestly and openly say that there are major differences

It is always good to test your art and put it under pressure (its why we spar with full contact gloves on in class), but the moment you start restricting it with rules and conditions, you start slicing away at realism

It is like performing drills and saying that it is a real fight

Sport means partnering opponents according to their size/weight, it means knowing your opponent before you enter the fight, it means being limited on the strikes you can use, etc

There are also environmental controls (you have a certain space to fight in whereas in the street you could be in a bar, crowded nightclub, bus, etc

I love the fact that chunners are striving to make the chun more fun, and use competitiveness within their schools (essential to evolve an art), but I just hope that they don’t feel obliged to ‘catch up’ with the UFC guys. Wing chun is designed to do a job. Cage fighting is a mix of arts and to enter a ‘purist’ into it would be suicidal

 

[graychuan]

... Do you guys think the popularity of MMA is luring __unner's out into the sport realm?

I think the popular practice of bashing Wing Chun and TCMA in general because of a lack of understanding from the bashers themselves is luring Chunners into the mix. Be it because of ego or a genuine intention at bringing Chun into the cage for a fair go-at-it by competent martial artists. Ultimately, it will be a good thing.

 

[dungeonworks]

I think its a risky game to play. Sport is so much different from a fight with no rules. I know we all get tiored of hearing that argument, but its true. Having done both (sport and streetfights), I can honestly and openly say that there are major differences

It is always good to test your art and put it under pressure (its why we spar with full contact gloves on in class), but the moment you start restricting it with rules and conditions, you start slicing away at realism

It is like performing drills and saying that it is a real fight

Sport means partnering opponents according to their size/weight, it means knowing your opponent before you enter the fight, it means being limited on the strikes you can use, etc

There are also environmental controls (you have a certain space to fight in whereas in the street you could be in a bar, crowded nightclub, bus, etc

I love the fact that chunners are striving to make the chun more fun, and use competitiveness within their schools (essential to evolve an art), but I just hope that they don’t feel obliged to ‘catch up’ with the UFC guys. Wing chun is designed to do a job. Cage fighting is a mix of arts and to enter a ‘purist’ into it would be suicidal

I hear what you are saying Kamon, and agree, but I was speaking more towards the percieved/actual increase in __unner's participating in MMA as well as more _ing __un type full contact events, be it full contact Chisau or kickboxing in a ring type of thing.

 

[graychuan]

Regarding Kamon's post...


He may not have hit right on the answer that was desired but as far as Im concerned it was a very valuable bit of info and a competent opinion. I think we all could benefit from reading that post a couple more times through. Thanks again for this thread, Dungeon!

 

[qwksilver61]

correct me If I am wrong,are both Sifu Gutierrez & Sifu Emin taking this path? I wonder.....

 

[Yoshin9]

I think that the "my style is too deadly for sport" is a cope out. Students of Wing Chun do sparing all the time without killing each other; every art (even weapon arts) can be used in sport competition as long as you recognize that that it is not combat.

You want combat? Let someone hit you on the head from behind with a baseball bat late at night while going to the drug store to get flu meds, then use whatever style you train in to defend yourself. There is a world of difference between assaults when you are not expecting them and face to face sparing when you want to.

If there is a movement I don't think it is vary large, but I do think that WC in under represented. Even ninjutsu went into the ring at UFC (keep in mind that UFC is not the only game out there. I'd like to see a competition of UFC guys against Dog Brothers guys ).

Cage fighting is a mix of arts and to enter a ‘purist’ into it would be suicidal

If you want to see 'purist' in cage fighting all you have to do is get UFC #1 and UFC #2. There were purists in the UFC as a matter of history, but people forget who started watching at UFC 96.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I think that the "my style is too deadly for sport" is a cope out. Students of Wing Chun do sparing all the time without killing each other; every art (even weapon arts) can be used in sport competition as long as you recognize that that it is not combat.

You want combat? Let someone hit you on the head from behind with a baseball bat late at night while going to the drug store to get flu meds, then use whatever style you train in to defend yourself. There is a world of difference between assaults when you are not expecting them and face to face sparing when you want to.

If there is a movement I don't think it is vary large, but I do think that WC in under represented. Even ninjutsu went into the ring at UFC (keep in mind that UFC is not the only game out there. I'd like to see a competition of UFC guys against Dog Brothers guys ).


If you want to see 'purist' in cage fighting all you have to do is get UFC #1 and UFC #2. There were purists in the UFC as a matter of history, but people forget who started watching at UFC 96.

True, but UFC has evolved since that time. As proved by the great Royce Gracie (who came back into the UFC a few years ago). He got his *ss handed to him. Yet the guy is phenomenal at BJJ

Wing chun is nver too deadly for comeptition and that should not be a reason given. It is merely that a lot of techniques used in wing chun are prohibited. That is why we were talking about purists - a purist of any art would find it hard to do well in the cage.

Pretty much all of the cage fighters cross train. They may have one art that they do better than the others, but ultimately grapplers will train to strike, and boxers will train to grapple

Evolving versions of wing chun may be able to eventually hold their own in the cage and certainly those who have a core wing chun foundation and then cross train would do very well

I know several chunners on a personal level who have got into more sport arts and say they owe pretty much everything to wing chun

 

[Tez3]

Guys, UFC is a company not a martial arts style! MMA is the style/sport. We aren't UFC people, we are MMA people. We aren't 'cagefighters' either, we regard that term as only being used by the wanabees and idiots, it makes us cringe. 'MMAers' will do us fine.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Guys, UFC is a company not a martial arts style! MMA is the style/sport. We aren't UFC people, we are MMA people. We aren't 'cagefighters' either, we regard that term as only being used by the wanabees and idiots, it makes us cringe. 'MMAers' will do us fine.

Sorry to correct you, but I have fought in the cage on a few occasions now and I know of two people on here who were accepted into the UFC

Cagefighter is a term used to describe anyone who fights in the cage. MMA is a broad term that could apply to any number of martial arts

For example - Kamon could be considered MMA as it involves elements of styles from other arts, founded upon a grounded wing chun base

I think people get too worried by terminology and you sometimes just have to let it go. People at my workplace dont even know the difference between kung fu and karate, but who cares

 

[Tez3]

Sorry to correct you, but I have fought in the cage on a few occasions now and I know of two people on here who were accepted into the UFC

Cagefighter is a term used to describe anyone who fights in the cage. MMA is a broad term that could apply to any number of martial arts

For example - Kamon could be considered MMA as it involves elements of styles from other arts, founded upon a grounded wing chun base

I think people get too worried by terminology and you sometimes just have to let it go. People at my workplace dont even know the difference between kung fu and karate, but who cares

Sorry but you have misunderstood me. When I say we aren't UFC people I mean we don't train or fight UFC, we fight and train MMA. Fighters are signed on by the UFC which is a company, they don't fight UFC, it's not a style which is how some were putting it. We've even had a post on CW asking how one trains UFC which is nonsense, you can fight on their shows but you are still fighting MMA. You don't say you are training Don King you say you are training boxing! We don't say we are watching Don King on the tele when we mean we are watching boxing. People don't fight UFC on BAMMA they fight MMA.

The words we use are hugely important when you are trying to put a fight night on, it's not a case of whether it's karate or JKD, for us it's the difference of several thousand pounds coming out of our pockets when the local council which was happy to allow an MMA show cancels because there's a protest over 'cagefighting'. Several towns such as Huddersfield, Brighton, Peterborough, Portsmouth have demanded that shows be moved or cancelled to a great cost to the promoters. People see and hear 'cagefighting' they think of something barbaric, it doesn't occur to them that it may be in a ring or even on mats, it doesn't occur to them it's martial arts, for many it's that old chestnut 'human cock fighting'.
At the moment there's a petition to the BBC to put MMA on the television, it's we push it as cage fighting it's never going to happen, as MMA we stand more chance. We promote MMA in a cage for safety and thats how we want people to see it. We need to get over the thoughts of the cage and concentrate on the martial arts.

From here...http://www.cagewarriors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61759


I always say that their misconception is a legacy of the early pioneer's desire for tv ratings where they labelled it "Cage Fighting" where "2 men enter and only one man leaves!!!". The UFC and MMA in general are still paying for this.

I then explain the virtues of a "cage" as opposed to a "ring" for MMA and how the cage prevents them falling through the ropes on a take down and breaking their necks.

They usually start umming and awwing at that point and I know I've started to turn them....

The worst thing MMA ever did was use the term Cage Fighting.

"I always say that their misconception is a legacy of the early pioneer's desire for tv ratings where they labelled it "Cage Fighting" where "2 men enter and only one man leaves!!!". The UFC and MMA in general are still paying for this.

I then explain the virtues of a "cage" as opposed to a "ring" for MMA and how the cage prevents them falling through the ropes on a take down and breaking their necks.

They usually start umming and awwing at that point and I know I've started to turn them....

The worst thing MMA ever did was use the term Cage Fighting."

Another
I always say that their misconception is a legacy of the early pioneer's desire for tv ratings where they labelled it "Cage Fighting" where "2 men enter and only one man leaves!!!". The UFC and MMA in general are still paying for this.

I then explain the virtues of a "cage" as opposed to a "ring" for MMA and how the cage prevents them falling through the ropes on a take down and breaking their necks.

They usually start umming and awwing at that point and I know I've started to turn them....

The worst thing MMA ever did was use the term Cage Fighting.

"i often go with a reasoned approach.

When asked what MMA is i explain that it is the genre of combat sports which is currently know in the media as "cagefighting" but that we in the industry dont go by such a vulgar term, prefering the more accurate and civilized "mixed martial arts"

(I like to use terms such as vulgar and civilized, to put in the mind of my questioner that i am a civilized person, interested in distancing myself from vulgar and barbaric practices.)

When asked to explain MMA in more detail i like to draw a comparison between the mixing of the styles of martial arts, and the rigors of peer review in scientific literature. I explain that just as new theories in science are rigorously tested, and reviewed by numerous other scientists in the relevant field, attempts are made to duplicate results, and conclusions are examined for weakness. So it is in the world of mixed martial arts, techniques and the methods by which they are trained are put through the peer review process of competition to find which yield the greatest and most consistant results.

(the comparison to scientific research is a sophisticated analogy, further taking my questioner away from the idea of barbarism)

When asked why it is important to peer review or pressure test the martial arts, i explain that when coaches have a working knowledge of what works when and how, what moves require strength to perform, or what techniques require lengthy amounts of practice, they are much better equipt to produce effective training programs such as womens self defence class, or programs for security personel, police or military.

I then go on to explain that this process is enjoyable to watch, and thus enterprising capatalists have made MMA into a successful business.

Last time i was faced with someone who outright wouldnt believe that it was anything other than barbaric, i undermined his position in the eyes of everyone else in the room by pointing out that his passive aggresive attempt to make me look uncivilized to a group of people i had met for the first time was far more 'violent' than two people consenting to test their skills against each other under a predetermined set of rules and the watchful eye of a referee."

plus
"the stigma is the "2 person enter one man leaves" issue.

The term "Cage" conjures up images of confinement, criminality and barbarism in the eyes of the general public.

Me, you and everyone else on here know that this is NOT the case but that's not what average joe/josephine thinks"

the petition to the BBC

http://www.cagewarriors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61693

You will also find plenty of posts on here against calling it cage fighting and about those who do. The vast majority of those posting are fighters, promoters, refs and others with a passionate interest in MMA.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Ah I see what you're getting at. Its true that the term 'cagefighting' carries with it a stigma, when ironically more deaths and injuries have come from sports with greater protection as well as more open arenas ring

There was an interesting fact that came up when I was looking at martial arts in general. More deaths have occured from gloved (14/16oz) boxing, than the boxing that was performed in the 19th century. The reason for this was that because of the padding in a glove, boxers could pretty much as hit with as much force as they wanted without fear of breaking their hands. In bare knuckle, boxers would have to hold back a little so that they didnt damage themselves

Cagefighting in general usually has a lot of rules attached in order to maintain a professionalism and to preserve fighters!

I know that a lot of knockdown fights in the 80s often led people to early retirement through injury

Its a shame that many MMA guys find themselves with no arena or audience in which to build their art

I remember when the series 'The Contender' came out for the kickboxing version, and how low the prize money was in comparison to normal boxing