MOTTS? Datu?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
It occurs to me that Renegade told me once that he was a student of Mr. Jornales first. I'm sure that he won't hesitate to speak if he remembers it differently. Izint that rite Regenade?

Unless I am much mistaken, Mr. Hartman's first FMA experience was at the Buffalo-area school of Mr. John Bryant, though Mr. Hartman was not there for more than a couple of years. Mr. Bryant was a Modern Arnis instructor who eventually moved to Florida. I know Mr. Hartman had met and worked with Mr. Jornales by the mid-80s. Mr. Jornales was living in Michigan however and Mr. Hartman was living in Western New York.

Mr. Hartman will of course be able to speak more authoritatively about this issue.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

You're both right (I never thought I would say that). I started with John Bryant in Modern Arnis. He was on the covers of some of the earlier videos. Then sometime around 87 or 88 Arnisador and I met Jornales together. We both worked his program and Arnisador got a red belt (equal to a high brown in Modern Arnis) and I earned a Black Belt.

I don't claim that rank any more because I could not stay current with my training with him. Like I said before he had some family problems that took him out of action for a while. He had a day job and took care of his family. This left him little time to train people.

I still pratice a lot of what I learned from him, but I can't say that I would consider may rank to be current. I'm proud of my accomplishment, but I don't feel that I've logged enough mat time to claim it now.

I started Modern Arnis the fall that Arnisador went off to college. I think That was october of 81. I should've been more precise. Over 20 years could be a day, week, month, etc.

My first camp was 85 in Mississippi. It was four of us and we drove all the way. We were and still are crazy. This is were I first met Dave Hoffman.

In 87 Anrisador and trained like mad men for the first camp that was held in Michigan. We put in 5-6 days a week and average 3-5 hours each day. It was common for us to do two sessions a day.

The whole time I was training in a full time Modern Arnis School. I wasn't cross training into the art. It has always been my primary art. It was the only full time Modern Arnis school in North America and is probably one of the reasons Remy was there so often. It was also the IMAF's North America HQ for a short period of time.

Even doing Modern as a full time art from the beginning, I don't feel that I got serious with my training until about 89. This was a year after I got my first Black Belt and opened my first school and I had to start worrying about my student more than myself. Serious meaning I started taking notes and started working more on the theory. The whole time I was working the material hard and I could mimic Remy, but it took me some time to start to really understand.

That's enough for now. It's bed time. I hope everyone enjoyed their Christmas! If anyone is wondering Santa gave me a 30 pound bag of coal. Fortunately my girl friend got me a digital camera. Santa better be looking over his shoulder, because I also got a lazer sight!

:rofl: :cheers: :ladysman: :armed:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
I started Modern Arnis the fall that Arnisador went off to college. I think That was october of 81. I should've been more precise.

Yes, I left for college in late August 1981 and Mr. Hartman started showing me stuff when I came back home for vacations and summers. I couldn't recall if he had started in the Fall of 1981 or a bit later and so wasn't sure it was 20 years yet. In fact, that's a milestone--Congratulations!

I had been studying karate and Mr. Hartman had no formal training at that time, though he had picked up some stuff from me, some stuff from a common friend who had been taking kung fu (I am referring to Mr. Hamel), and some other stuff from a friend of his who studied kung fu (and whose name escapes me though he was an acquaintance of mine as well--I did not know him as well as Mr. Hartman did though). Mr. Hartman sought advice from me (and others I am sure) when he went to take up formal training in the martial arts and I recall recommending arnis to him because he was a.) fast, b.) interested in weapons, c.) less interested in kata/forms. I had heard just a little about the local arnis school--it must have been from Bill Adams, directly or indirectly--and knew enough from that and the martial arts magazines to know that Mr. Hartman would probably like it. I had no first-hand knowledge of the art until Mr. Hartman taught me some of what he had learned. At this point I no longer recall if I gave him his first pointer to arnis as a possible art or if he asked me what I knew of arnis after having heard about it from someone else but I do know that we discussed it before he started and I strongly encouraged him to consider it. I did not think that the Isshin-ryu Karate-do I was studying was a good fit for him though I myself enjoyed it greatly.

I recall a party Mr. Hartman and I attended--I hope he doesn't mind me recounting this story. Mr. Hartman would have been in 10th grade and I would have been in 12th grade. I wandered into a room and found three typical high school twits verbally hassling Mr. Hartman; it gave every indication of being a situation that might escalate. This was most certainly not good-natured teasing. I instructed the twits to disperse. One turned and grabbed at me. I threw him into a wall--not the nearest wall but rather across the small room--using an aikido-like technique I had picked up in an eclectic American Self-Defense school I had studied at prior to starting Isshin-ryu. I then asked if perhaps I wasn't clear when I first spoke. They dispersed. (No one was injured, just shaken.) A few years later Mr. Hartman would repay the favor by looking out for my younger brother at a party (the situation was somewhat different).

In 87 Anrisador and trained like mad men for the first camp that was held in Michigan. We put in 5-6 days a week and average 3-5 hours each day. It was common for us to do two sessions a day.

My wife still talks about this (she and I were dating at the time and Mr. Hartman and I mostly trained in the yard of her apartment). Mr. Hartman had taught me a bit here-and-there before this but 1987 is when we really got serious. I also practiced at night after he left (I knicked up some furniture swinging sticks in the house). We made quite an impression at that camp, if I must say so myself.

The whole time I was training in a full time Modern Arnis School. I wasn't cross training into the art. It has always been my primary art.

This is absolutely correct, and it is rare amongst Modern Arnis practitioners. I have always respected Mr. Hartman for this. He attempts to broaden his horizons but he is a Modern Arnis practicioner first and foremost. That's a strong show of faith in the Professor's art.

I wasn't aware of the almost unique status of Mr. Bryant's studio! I'll also echo Mr. Hartman's positive comments about Mr. Jornales--a talented martial artist and a great human being.

Even doing Modern as a full time art from the beginning, I don't feel that I got serious with my training until about 89. This was a year after I got my first Black Belt and opened my first school and I had to start worrying about my student more than myself. Serious meaning I started taking notes and started working more on the theory. The whole time I was working the material hard and I could mimic Remy, but it took me some time to start to really understand.

Mr. Hartman and I have always agreed that one must study the arts, and he certainly has. I repeat what I have said before--he has also been a great resource for others' students at camps and seminars.

I received my lakan on April 1st of 1989, making me Mr. Hartman's first black belt student. It was a nice closure after I had helped steer him toward that art in the first place!

Congratulations again on 20 years in Modern Arnis Mr. Hartman! Who would've thought, eh?

 

[arnisador]

I note from http://www.kellyworden.com/ taht Mr. Worden is himself a renegade--he lists Renegade JKD as one of his arts. In fact, he uses the term Renegade quite often on his site. There is information about Mr. Worden here:
http://www.kellyworden.com/datu/DATU.HTM
http://www.kellyworden.com/articles/mavr_intervw/mavr.htm

I suspect that his use of the term Renegade precedes Mr. Hartman's use of it but I do not know if it was hung on him as it was on Mr. Hartman.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Thanks Arnisador. It was good to write this down for everyone, it made me remeber all the good time I had and friends because ot the art.

:cheers:

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
I note from http://www.kellyworden.com/ taht Mr. Worden is himself a renegade--he lists Renegade JKD as one of his arts. In fact, he uses the term Renegade quite often on his site.

I suspect that his use of the term Renegade precedes Mr. Hartman's use of it but I do not know if it was hung on him as it was on Mr. Hartman.

First of all, Hello! I found this forum just a few days ago and figured I would register and maybe jump into some exchanges and whatnot from time to time. Forums are always a great place to exchange ideas. Even if it is just talking about certain things in your library, as there is a Forum here for that as well.

When I found this thread, I was scratching my head about some things. I thought some things harsh and perhaps others I simply did not know about.

To be straightforward, Kelly is a friend of mine. What Kelly does with regard to what he refers to as, Renegade Jeet Kune Do is his own thing. He has been recognized by one of Sifu Lee's early Students, Mr. Kimura, as carrying on a Grand Philosophy, that of delving into Self-exploration...that's what JKD was to Sifu Bruce Lee anyway, it was a vehicle that he used to get him where he wanted to go in his own, personal quest.

Jeet Kune Do, more than anything else, is a Lighthouse. It is supposed to guide you through the storm, that storm is everything around you with regard to what is done, in a Martial Context. On a practical level, Jeet Kune Do in Cantonese is, "The Way of The Intercepting Fist."

What precisely does that mean? Beating someone to the punch, meeting, passing...it can mean all of these things at once. It is by no means a mistake that FMAs and JKD have become "Blood Brothers." The whole, underlying Principle of, "The Way of The Intercepting Fist" is found in the gunting, it is found in the stick, the pocket stick, the sword and the knife. It is throughout the FMAs. The scissoring Crossada movement with the strike, is, in a very real way...JKD. If you ignore that JKD is one thing as it stands right now. Forget the baggage and examine the essence of it. Datu Kelly Worden's "Renegade JKD" is his interpretation of it.

Kelly has remained silent about alot of things, as he told me, out of respect for Professor Remy Presas. I'm sure his own words will be known soon enough to those interested.

Professor Presas and Modern Arnis, it is called Modern Arnis for a reason, it is in a state of flux. Yes, it has the root and the core, but it is more than alot of people give it credit for. And I believe that is the main message that Datu Kelly Worden wishes to convey at this time.

There have been things said that are not quite as accurate as they should be. There is talk of Juniors and Seniors and Datus and who is what and how, when, and why they got there or received a Title.

Datu Kelly Worden is recognized by many to be one of the leading authorities on Modern Arnis. Professor Remy Presas' own words, one day soon, will be known. Those words will lay this controversy to rest I believe.

It is no secret that Datu Worden left the "fold" of Modern Arnis for some time, a few years...it is also no secret that some people had Titles conferred and then later they were pulled as they fell from Grace. This happens in all systems.

Professor Presas never stripped Kelly Worden of the Title of Datu in Modern Arnis. When Datu Kelly returned, he was welcomed and embraced by Professor Presas. There is a reason for that, the reason is, Modern Arnis is apparently alot more than some people understand, like JKD, it is greater than its' published parts.

Professor Presas embraced Datu Worden because Datu Worden always gave credit where credit was due and what Datu Worden is doing, right now, is in fact, Modern Arnis. It might be so far from a structured formula and belief system that personalities are having problems with it. That's fine too.

With respect to Professor Presas, his Family, Modern Arnis, and the Masters that he now sits with that have went before him on his Journey...

Don

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
When I found this thread, I was scratching my head about some things. I thought some things harsh and perhaps others I simply did not know about.

Thanks for your post! I do not believe that I have ever met Mr. Worden but I have certainly read about him, in martial arts magazines and on the web. I gather he teaches the military often--it would be interesting to attend one of his seminars.

My post was something of an inside joke concerning my friend and instructor Mr. Hartman, I'm afraid: Both Datu Hartman and Datu Worden use the term "Renegade" which I found a somewhat amusing coincidence. I intended no disrespect to Mr. Worden.

Kelly has remained silent about alot of things, as he told me, out of respect for Professor Remy Presas. I'm sure his own words will be known soon enough to those interested.

There have been things said that are not quite as accurate as they should be.

Many here will be interested I am sure! The Professor's son, Mr. D. Presas, also posts here from time to time, as does an officer of the IMAF, Inc. Can you share anything with us about this news or the inaccuracies at this point?

Datu Kelly Worden is recognized by many to be one of the leading authorities on Modern Arnis. Professor Remy Presas' own words, one day soon, will be known. Those words will lay this controversy to rest I believe.

A bold statement! Given the claims already made by Mr. Delaney, by Dr. Schea's group, and by the MARPPIO group, it will be most interesting to hear from Mr. Worden or his representatives. Since the two IMAFs managed to split up despite their roles being spelt out in the Professor's will and MARPPIO appeared despite their not being mentioned in the will it may be too much too hope that the Professor's "own words" will suffice to set things right at this late date.

...it is also no secret that some people had Titles conferred and then later they were pulled as they fell from Grace.

Well, this was kept secret from me at least...to whom are you referring? Which titles were these? I can only think of one possible instance where a black belt may have been revoked, and I am unsure even of that.

Professor Presas embraced Datu Worden because Datu Worden always gave credit where credit was due and what Datu Worden is doing, right now, is in fact, Modern Arnis. It might be so far from a structured formula and belief system that personalities are having problems with it. That's fine too.

To be honest, his name only comes up when people are trying to enumerate the complete list of Modern Arnis datus, as Mr. Hartman recently did in this very thread:

Originally posted by Renegade
Shishiar Inacallo-Canada
Kelly Worden-USA
Ric Jornales-USA
David Hoffman-USA currently UK
Dieter Knuttel-Germany
Tim Hartman (myself)-USA

Apart from that he is generally not mentioned. It will be most interesting if another Modern Arnis datu takes on an active role! Out of curiousity, do you know what rank (lakan ...) Mr. Worden holds and when it was granted? This has been discussed in conjunction with the MOTTs.

I hope that this board does not appear hostile to Mr. Worden and his group. I think that many of us simply do not know much about him and his relationship to Modern Arnis. The fact that he is a datu obviously speaks well of him.

 

[Cthulhu]

I think Worden's name came up simply because we were discussing active Modern Arnis Datus. I think the word 'active' can be a bit subjective here. I'm positive nobody meant anything harsh about Worden or any of the other datus listed by Renegade.

At least, I know I didn't mean anything harsh. Seriously, though, just a friendly discussion from curious folk (in my case, nosey folk).

Cthulhu
not affiliated with Modern Arnis at all, just nosey as all hell when it comes to martial arts.

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
Thanks for your post! I do not believe that I have ever met Mr. Worden but I have certainly read about him, in martial arts magazines and on the web. I gather he teaches the military often--it would be interesting to attend one of his seminars.

My post was something of an inside joke concerning my friend and instructor Mr. Hartman, I'm afraid: Both Datu Hartman and Datu Worden use the term "Renegade" which I found a somewhat amusing coincidence. I intended no disrespect to Mr. Worden.

Yes, he is currently teaching the finest at the moment. The people that require his skills the most. It is comforting that in times like these, that we find ourselves in...even given the state of Warfare and firearms and all of the other aspects of Warfare, that the Military seeks out The Best when it comes to subjects like Hand to Hand Combat, Edged and Impact Weapons...even though in the minds of most Military Personnel...these things are low on the priority list. For Special Forces, there is always a heightened probability that they will find themselves in Close Combat with the enemy. There is a long history stretching back decades to this practice...of going outside Official Channels to gain the best instruction in rather exotic arts.

As for the term "Renegade," I wanted to do [inform] what Datu Worden did not have the time to do. And that was to explain that what he refers to as "Renegade JKD" is his personal conceptual vehicle and philosophy, literally taking Sifu Bruce Lee's words and deeds to heart...to explore and find out for yourself what works and to find the common thread in many different things. Datu Worden has used the phrase for a long time, "Connecting The Systems," and his ability to do just that is one of the reasons that he is held in such a high regard to so many people.

Many here will be interested I am sure! The Professor's son, Mr. D. Presas, also posts here from time to time, as does an officer of the IMAF, Inc. Can you share anything with us about this news or the inaccuracies at this point?

There is some speculation as to precisely what role Datu Worden has in the World of Modern Arnis, that will be clarified in the not too distant future. I believe Datu Worden is in close contact with the Presas Family and has remained so for quite some time.

Since the two IMAFs managed to split up despite their roles being spelt out in the Professor's will and MARPPIO appeared despite their not being mentioned in the will it may be too much too hope that the Professor's "own words" will suffice to set things right at this late date.

Indeed, as I was speaking to Datu tonight, I remarked, "Empires are built and they fall and the mad scramble begins." This is nothing new really. I have the utmost respect for those people who have given so much of themselves, so much that they could have quit years ago and lived comfortably...instead, they continued on and did what they loved to do. To share and to live in that way. And I think that is one of the greatest gifts Professor Presas left. His love for Modern Arnis. Everyone knows Professor Presas was like the theoretical Rock Band that never tired of touring. So tireless...that's not about money, that's love, I respect that more than anything. The actual love of The Arts themselves.

Well, this was kept secret from me at least...to whom are you referring? Which titles were these? I can only think of one possible instance where a black belt may have been revoked, and I am unsure even of that.

Not mere Black Belts in Modern Arnis, also...I was not referring to anyone in this thread. But what I spoke about, will in time come to the surface.

Apart from that he is generally not mentioned. It will be most interesting if another Modern Arnis datu takes on an active role!

I think that is one of the sources of controversy currently. People are making clear distinctions on who is "active" and who is not that Professor Remy Presas did not necessarily make. In other words, up until the end, Professor Presas embraced Datu Kelly Worden and gave blessing to what he was doing and where he was taking Modern Arnis. That's pretty active.

I think one of the things that "got the ball rolling" in here, as it were, was a statement that the "JKD People" don't know what he is doing and the Modern Arnis People don't know what he is doing. (That is not a direct quote, but close enough to illustrate.) The misunderstanding being, what he is doing is Modern Arnis with Professor Presas blessing.

Out of curiousity, do you know what rank (lakan ...) Mr. Worden holds and when it was granted? This has been discussed in conjunction with the MOTTs.

Actually, I was trying to ask so many questions tonight and listen to the responses, I honestly forgot to ask, but it was on my mind. So, I'm sorry, I don't have the Rank.

I hope that this board does not appear hostile to Mr. Worden and his group. I think that many of us simply do not know much about him and his relationship to Modern Arnis. The fact that he is a datu obviously speaks well of him.

There were some statements that came across rather harshly, I would just ask everyone to remember your last sentence.

"The fact that he is a datu obviously speaks well of him."

That's true and there is a reason that he has carried that Title and it has never been questioned, nor has his activity been publicly or severely questioned until now. For over ten years he has been Datu Kelly Worden.

I don't think it is one bit innaccurate or untruthful to say, that he had the blessing of Professor Presas because Professor Presas knew exactly what Datu Worden was doing and where he was going and where he was taking Modern Arnis. The highest compliment to be conferred on Professor Presas in this matter, is that that one of the most sought-after Edged Weapons/Combatives Instructors, utilized by some Units of U.S. Special Forces, is Datu Kelly Worden.

That should be a source of pride for everyone associated with Modern Arnis, that one of your own is viewed in such a light, and that your Art is viewed with such value, the effectiveness of it, that it is used by these people.

This is where Datu Worden has taken Modern Arnis and this is why he remains active, just not necessarily active as equal to the definition of some people.

Thank you for the welcome!

With Respect,

Don

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
The highest compliment to be conferred on Professor Presas in this matter, is that that one of the most sought-after Edged Weapons/Combatives Instructors, utilized by some Units of U.S. Special Forces, is Datu Kelly Worden.

That should be a source of pride for everyone associated with Modern Arnis, that one of your own is viewed in such a light, and that your Art is viewed with such value, the effectiveness of it, that it is used by these people.

This is an excellent point and I heartily agree. I think Modern Arnis--and the Filipino Martial Arts in general--have much to offer in that regard. They represent an improvement over the techniques illustrated in the books by the late Michael Echanis, for example. The fact that members of the military choose someone trained in knife fighting by the Professor should indeed be considered very flattering and very telling.

This is where Datu Worden has taken Modern Arnis and this is why he remains active, just not necessarily active as equal to the definition of some people.

I think that most people equate "active in Modern Arnis" with "frequently seen at camps and seminars", rightly or wrongly. I think in the case of Mr. Worden it has also not always been clear to me, at least, how his "Natural Spirit" fit in with Modern Arnis. I have a clearer understanding of it now. Thanks for posting.

 

[Bob]

First of all I am not posting here to cause any more conflict then what has already occurred. I have been a student of Datu Worden for 13 years, and I have heard the same questions and statements made in this thread for years.
I have had the opportunity to train in seminars and classes with many students from Professor Presas’s past. I have trained with Datu Ric Jounales, Datu Dieter Knuttel, Master Roland Dantes, Punong Guro Myrlino Hufana and which all taught Modern Arnis, and all showed their own interpretation of the art. It was still Modern Arnis, but with their personalities. They embraced the most important lesson I ever learned from the Professor, “make Arnis your own”.
I have read in this post that people do not know what base system Mr. Worden is from. Well, I wish to clarify this; Mr. Worden’s heart belongs to Modern Arnis. Like the Professor did for many years, Datu Worden is doing the same, he is evolving his art.
Datu Worden has always believed in staying true to his art, which I feel he has. Datu Worden has always made it a point to give credit to all his teachers, and never accepted credit that he did not deserve.
My main point to all this is that these threads should not be an arena to discuss political differences or who deserves what title, it should be a place for all to gather and share knowledge. This Filipino martial arts thread should be a tribute to the family of Professor Presas, and not a discussion of when and how, or who said what.
You may or may not agree with Datu Worden’s style, or ideologies that is fine. I am not here to convert anyone, but what I do ask is that everyone respect the memory of Professor Presas and share your stories and experiences and not politics. We all have experienced Professor in some form or another, maybe it was one seminar where he slammed you to the ground or maybe you were lucky enough to spend quality time with the man, so share it. Allow the next generation of Modern Arnis students to learn from your stories about Professor Presas.
So please look inside yourself and ask yourself is rank or title that important, or is it the heart and skill of the teacher. I personally have learned some valuable martial arts lessons from people that had no experience or limited experience, and on the flip side I have met people with more rank and years then I, and learned absolutely nothing.
I can speak freely for all of Datu Worden’s students we do not judge people by rank, we judge them on heart and open mind ness. Each one of Datu’s students has something unique to offer to the group.
In my eyes Datu Worden has earned the title of Datu, because he has taken the lesson he learned from the Professor and has embraced them with his heart. He has stayed and continues to stay true to the Professor and his family.
Datu Worden will always be my teacher and I will always stand beside him, just like you all would stand by your instructors. So lets not turn these issues into a tribal war, lets learn from each other, and explore Modern Arnis the way the Professor wished us to.

Thank you for your time
Bob Riley

 

[Pappy Geo]

have been following this thread for the past few days and have been amazed at the political posturing that is implied here. It seems to me you are implying belt #s are more important than skill? When I am training with new people I pay attention to their skill, knowledge and talent, not how many slashes are on their belt. Many times I have seen non-blackbelts with more talent than multi-slashed blackbelts. Shouldn't your status stand on your abilities and your heart or commitment? There were inquiries as to Datu Kelly Worden ranking and I think you missed the boat. Would you assign a blackbelt number to a Grandmaster? Datu Worden has evolved the Modern Arnis system into a ruthless, lethal Combative Art! His systems are internationally known, has produced over 20 videos (sold over 7000 videos), Designed and sold thousands of knives, Been teaching the military for years. Roland Dantes is in the process of getting ready to shoot a martial arts movie here in the Northwest starring Datu Worden!
The is only a brief synopsis of Datu Worden's accomplishments. Who else in the system can list these kind of career accomplishments? How many are full time career martial artists?

Roland Dantes is a very long time student of the professor's and is on the cover of the Professor's book at Madison Square garden. He holds and 8th degree in the system, is a very famous martial arts movie star in the Philippines. Go to his page at

http://gmpresas.com/bio_roland.htm

to learn about Roland, a real gentleman! Check out the picture of him and Datu Worden taken at the professors nursing home the day before he passed away. Roland spent a few months living with Datu Worden last summer and it was a rare privilege to have him training with us! Email Roland and ask him what he thinks of Datu Worden at

[email protected]

I already know what he thinks. By the way Roland is the CHAIRMAN of INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
ARNIS PHILIPPINES and PHILIPPINE OLYMPIC COMMITTEE. A true Ambassador to Modern Arnis!


Pappy Geo, unclassified

 

[Cthulhu]

I can't speak for the others, but I was just asking about MOTTS/datu titles in general for pure curiosity. I have no political motives whatsoever because, as I've said before, I am not affiliated with Modern Arnis in any way, shape, or form. I'm interested in all martial arts, and this topic piqued my curiosity.

All these defensive posts on this thread. Methinks some peoples doth protest too much.

Cthulhu

 

[Pappy Geo]

You are absolutely correct and that is my point!

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
I can't speak for the others, but I was just asking about MOTTS/datu titles in general for pure curiosity. I have no political motives whatsoever because, as I've said before, I am not affiliated with Modern Arnis in any way, shape, or form. I'm interested in all martial arts, and this topic piqued my curiosity.

All these defensive posts on this thread. Methinks some peoples doth protest too much.

Cthulhu

I have no interests in the Politics of various Martial Systems either because as we all know, that is a Dead End Street to Nowhereville. Yet, they exist and to ignore that is not good either. I think some of the remarks were "harsh" as I described them before because...while they give credit to Datu Worden's ability as a Martial Artist [Datu Hartman said this.] they also ignore that what Datu Worden is doing is, in a very real way, Modern Arnis with the blessing of Professor Presas.

Words do mean things and I don't think I would put these posts in the "Defensive" or "Offensive" Realm, they are opinions. The point being, one side-an opinion-was voiced, now another has been voiced. This is called, balance. And in every endeavor of the Human Experience, balance is not something that should be condemned or looked upon with disdain.

That's a direct answer to the end of your post with regard to the possibility of people protesting too much. There is no "protest" at all. It is just a series of remarks that clarify a position and a person and what the person, Datu Kelly Worden, is doing. That's all.

This next quote from Datu Hartman, a/k/a "Renegade," is I think what muddied the waters so to speak.

Originally posted by Renegade
Cthulu,
that is a good question. I have no clue what rank if any in Modern Arnis that he has. I've seen his tapes and have had phone conversations with him. From what I see he is a talented martial artist. When I ask the Modern Arnis people they say he is a JKD person. When you talk to the JKD people they say he's a Modern Arnis person. The material I've seen on the tapes that I have access to does not give me the impression of Modern Arnis. Instead I think of the JKD Kali program. There is no question on his ability, I'm just not sure what the root art is.

This is a glowing post in that, an observation has been made as to Datu Worden's abilities. The question then becomes, what of the JKD/Modern Arnis statement?

As I stated before, and I'll give another example. Professor Presas was well-known to have Seminars with Professor Wally Jay and Sensei Dillman. Professor Presas was actively involved in the evolution of his Art, which is of course Modern Arnis.

Because Professor Presas was of that mindset, it is for that precise reason that Datu Kelly Worden's body of work has continued on with the blessing of Professor Presas...

With respect to Datu Hartman who I bear no ill will to whatsoever, it should be clear that what Datu Worden is doing is in the Grand Tradition of Modern Arnis itself. If something should be found in Datu Worden's Modern Arnis that is not found in Datu Hartman's Modern Arnis, that should come as no surprise and should not be a basis for a claim that what Datu Kelly Worden is doing is not Modern Arnis. It is.

I'm not attempting to take a shot at Datu Hartman in any way, I'm setting something straight for a friend and there are no ulterior motives in the posts whatsoever.

Again, you can refer to Datu Worden's interpretation of Modern Arnis as Modern Arnis in that, it received the blessing of Professor Presas, and always has. That's the active point.

Datu Kelly Worden has simply done as he always claimed, he "Connected the Systems." This is of great value and is also in the tradition of Modern Arnis Camps and Seminars where many people from a plethora of Systems and Styles came to learn Modern Arnis from Professor Presas and in so doing, they went back home with some more effective movement that they could then incorporate into their own Martial Arts Disciplines.

That statement is based in fact and not conjecture. That's where the "sharing" and "love" of the Filipino Arts was injected by Professor Presas that I spoke of earlier. Professor Presas actively toured for decades to spread the good word of Modern Arnis and how that particular System could be integrated into many different Arts. And that is "Connecting the Systems." So, Datu Worden is simply carrying on that tradition that Professor Presas blessed him with.

And none of the comments about Professor Jay or Sensei Dillman should be taken as anything other than what I spoke of. Modern Arnis, in a very real way and early on, was heavily involved with finding the common thread that ran through other Arts. Thereby, "Connecting the Systems."

As I said, no ulterior motives, with respect...

Don

 

[Mao]

How thrilling it is to have some of Kelly's associates posting. I agree that we should be all working together. I have mentioned this before. It would be nice if we could all be on one team. I think that in a sense we are, in that we practice martial arts, and modern arnis more specifically. I was told by Remy many times that Dr. Shea is the Chairman of the Board, and he never mentioned anyone else in this capacity. He aslo said many times that he considered Tim a son, among other things that he said about Tim. He said, also, that he considered Kelly one of the best knife fighters in the world and that "my God, he is deadly". As I mentioned in the past, I think that Remy saw something in each person that he put in each position. I am grateful and honored to be associated with the people that I am. I see something good in everyone that I "play" with. Everyone has good and not so good points. I try to see the good. Sometimes that is very difficult because the person makes it so. I am grateful for the times that I spent with Remy talking in confidence as this gave me some perspective on how he felt about certain people and what he looked for in them. He said many good things as well as some not so good things about people. I don't know how often he spoke like this or with whom, but I am grateful that he felt comfortable, confident enough with/in me to speak with me like this. It gave me a very personal perspective. I don't know how many people ever heard what Remy really felt about them. Some of what he said to me I have shared with these people, some is mentioned above. Some is better left unsaid. I have spoken with Kelly about some of what is soon to be released. I am anxoius to see it in print. Kelly tends to let his actions speak for him as opposed to his words. Bravo. My wife and I were treated to lunch by him while we were in Washinton. My wife has a pretty good instinct when it comes to sort of reading people. She liked Kelly. This is just great,....sometimes I wonder if she likes me! As for the term active, I don't know if I consider whether they go to camp or not jermain. I know many very active people in various styles that don't compete, go to camp or do tournaments. They are still very active teaching, promoting the art and training.

 

[Mao]

One more thing that the Prof. said to me on more than one occasion was "do not mind the barking dogs, just do your work".
Amen.

 

[arnisador]

There's a lot of good information that has been posted rapidly--I'm still trying to digest it all! Now that Mr. Worden will be taking a more visible role in Modern Arnis, as I understand from these posts, I'll have to learn more about him. Hopefully a seminar will come my way before long--does he travel much to give seminars?

Originally posted by Don Rearic

As for the term "Renegade," I wanted to do [inform] what Datu Worden did not have the time to do. And that was to explain that what he refers to as "Renegade JKD" is his personal conceptual vehicle and philosophy, literally taking Sifu Bruce Lee's words and deeds to heart...

Do you mean to say that Mr. Worden was a student of Bruce Lee? Or did he learn JKD from Mr. Inosanto or another instructor? (I do not know Mr. Worden's age--perhaps he could not have studied with Bruce Lee.) Was he a JKD practitioner prior to studying Modern Arnis then? I have never had the chance to study JKD but have of course read much of what Bruce Lee wrote about it.

There is some speculation as to precisely what role Datu Worden has in the World of Modern Arnis, that will be clarified in the not too distant future.

I will be most interested to hear more. Between the two IMAFs, MARPPIO, the WMAA, PIGSSAI/IMAF-Philippines, Arnis de Leon, etc., it's hard to know what to think!

People are making clear distinctions on who is "active" and who is not that Professor Remy Presas did not necessarily make.

It's obvious that Mr. Worden is and has been an active martial artist. As I said before, people usually take "active" to mean actively visible at the camps and seminars, and this is a somewhat restricted meaning of the term. Mr. Hartman and the MOTTs have been active in this sense but it is not the only sense of the term by any means.

MartialTalk has been a great resource for learning and sharing about Modern Arnis! It's apity we didn't have it when the Professor was around.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Bob
I have had the opportunity to train in seminars and classes with many students from Professor Presas’s past. I have trained with Datu Ric Jounales, Datu Dieter Knuttel, Master Roland Dantes, Punong Guro Myrlino Hufana and which all taught Modern Arnis, and all showed their own interpretation of the art. It was still Modern Arnis, but with their personalities.

I envy you your variety in training! I would disagree that Mr. Jornales taught Modern Arnis, however, despite being a Modern Arnis datu. He associated with the Professor but I thought that he had always taught his own art, Arnis-Kali Sipa-Sikaran (or simply Arnis Sikaran).

I have read in this post that people do not know what base system Mr. Worden is from. Well, I wish to clarify this; Mr. Worden’s heart belongs to Modern Arnis. Like the Professor did for many years, Datu Worden is doing the same, he is evolving his art.

Thanks, this had not been clear to me before this thread--Modern Arnis appeared to be only one art of many he had studied and "connected" with others.

My main point to all this is that these threads should not be an arena to discuss political differences or who deserves what title, it should be a place for all to gather and share knowledge.

A nice thought but alas politics is currently an issue. We have two IMAFs, each with their own co-successor and co-grandmaster; MARPPIO; and now Mr. Inocalla's group. Modern Arnis is in danger of disappearing if we cannot come together, I fear, and that is worth discussing. One cohesive group would be more than the sum of these many parts, but I frankly don't think that's a realistic hope at this point.

I believe that in the end the Professor wanted one group to be the one to principally carry the art forward for him--the IMAF under the MOTTs. That hope is now dashed. Perhaps the upcoming announcement from Mr. Worden will change my mind; I also follow the developments with MARPPIO and the new announcement concerning the IMAF-Philippines. Politics is here to stay, I think. If the co-successors and various claimants to the Professor's legacy don't get their acts together then I believe his art will disappear before we know what happened. It's influence will remain but the art will be gone. I take no joy in being so pessimistic, and I do not mean the art should be static, but I don't think the current situation is healthy for the art.

In my eyes Datu Worden has earned the title of Datu, because he has taken the lesson he learned from the Professor and has embraced them with his heart. He has stayed and continues to stay true to the Professor and his family.
Datu Worden will always be my teacher and I will always stand beside him, just like you all would stand by your instructors. So lets not turn these issues into a tribal war

Ah, but I would argue that a statement such as "I will always stand beside him, just like you all would stand by your instructors" is exactly what leads to a tribal war! I'll stand beside my instructor as long as I believe he's in the right. I'll give him a great deal of trust because he has earned it, but I won't stand beside him for any other reason than my belief in him, as long as that continues. I suspect this is just semantics and that you and I actually agree in our hearts, however, for anyone who truly learned the Professor's lessons learned the importance of heart in the martial arts. How often did the Professor emphasize training in friendship and respect, for fun and betterment? It was more important to him that we had fun and grew as people than that we developed martial skills and grew as martial artists in the technical sense.

Modern Arnis is a do art, not a jutsu art. The Professor wanted, in his humble way, to make us better people more than he wanted to make us better fighters. He was a loving man. I look at the scramble for position and prestige following his death and frankly some of the positioning prior to his death, during his prolonged sickness, and I am sad for him.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo
have been following this thread for the past few days and have been amazed at the political posturing that is implied here. It seems to me you are implying belt #s are more important than skill?

I don't think that anyone believes that. In fact, an early thread addressed this issue, and that as you go on to say "beginners" can often teach one a lot. One hopes that belts were given out as an indication of skill--I cannot judge skill over the Internet but I can judge that if Mr. Hartman, say, tested for 6th degree black belt before the Professor and passed then he was thought to have some amount of skill, presumably exceeding that expected of a lower degree black belt.

The politics has been thrust upon us, I would say: IMAF; IMAF, Inc.; MARPPIO; and so on. I would have been most happy to have a single IMAF with a well-defined head. It is unfortunate that the MOTTS as a whole were unable to carry out the Professor's wishes. We have heard comments on whether the fault was solely Mr. Delaney's or no, but in the end the structure laid out by the Professor failed, rapidly. This is a sad and regrettable fact, and we must make the best of it as facts can be remarkably stubborn things.

There were inquiries as to Datu Kelly Worden ranking and I think you missed the boat. Would you assign a blackbelt number to a Grandmaster?

Well, yes--10, in most cases. This was the rank that Professor Presas claimed for example. This is very common. Balintawak may have no ranking system but Modern Arnis does. Why is it offensive to ask about Mr. Worden's rank? The Professor signed all black belt certificates--they were nice certificates, and it was a serious affair. The Modern Arnis ranking system appears even in the 1973 red book, unless I am much mistaken.

I'll be blunt: I don't see why Mr. Worden's supporters are so defensive and so secretive about this issue. I've never had the chance to train with Mr. Worden and I haven't seen his videos. I have read articles and my instructor has commented very positively on hi martial skills. Something big is apparently going to happen concerning him soon and an attemptto gain simple biographical information, that should be a matter of public record on file with the IMAF, results in lectures on not judging people by their rank. I do know better than that--but Modern Arnis, unlike JKD, has a ranking system modeled after the judo kyu/dan rankings (recall that the Professor was both a judoka and a karateka as well as an arnisador). Why is this question seen as being offensive? Mr. Worden has not been attending Modern Arnis events, to the best of my knowledge, so I have not met him--I am trying to learn about him, with an open mind, and what rank the Professor gave him and waht title the Professor gave him will factor into my judgement until I am fortunate enough to be able to form an in-person opinion of him, because I trust the Professor's judgement.

Roland Dantes [...] holds and 8th degree in the system

Not that this matters?