MOTTS? Datu?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
He may not have had rank. Datu Ric Jornales was awarded the title without having any rank! This was in the mid 80's. Remy was trying to groom him as a possible candidate to be his replacment when the time was right to retire. Unfortuantly Ric had a crisis in his family which took him out of the picture for many years. Arnisador can confirm his activity in the group.

Indeed. Ric "Bong Sun" Jornales (sp?) is one of the nicest people I've ever met in the martial arts. We met him several times in Michigan that I recall. He would put on weapons demonstrations with a great many weapons, laid out in a row. He had his own style, then called Arnis-Kali Sipa-Sikaran (now shortened to Arnis Sikaran?). He usually brought some of his students who were quite serious and quite good. I remember in particular him teaching Mr. Hartman and me the staff once after regular camp hours. (Speaking of after regular camp hours, Mr. Jornales also liked to go out dancing.) The Professor treated him like a son and made his affection and respect for him publicly known--the Professor often had his arm around Mr. Jornales and spoke glowingly of him.

I say again that Mr. Jornales is one of the nicest people I've ever met while doing the martial arts, and I've met many nice people in the arts. He would give you the shirt off his back. He's simply a great guy.

Let me change the direction of this a bit. On a note somewhat related to this whole topic (rank and titles), from:
http://www.islanderskarate.com/ModernArnisSeminars.asp
(which is apparently fairly up-to-date) we have the line:
Ken Smith has studied Modern Arnis for the past eight years.

This seems a short time for someone to become a 5th degree black belt, Master of Tapi Tapi, and achieve master level (I am unsure what the relationship is between Master of Tapi-Tapi and master, but I believe the latter may be connected with achieving the rank of lakan lima whether or not one is not a MOTT), even if one had previous martial arts experience.

Most if not all the MOTTs make the claim that they have traveled extensively with the Professor, as does Mr. Delaney. I must wonder if this is, at least in some cases, an exaggeration of the truth--that they went to many seminars and camps at which the Professor taught but were not traveling and training with him. It is hard to imagine how so many people could be traveling and training with him seemingly at once. I have to suspect that someone is exaggerating.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

You are correct Arnisador. Most of the MA (Modern Arnis) people would attend seminars, not travel with Remy. There were three exceptions to this.

1. Tim Hartman(myself)
2. Chuck Gauss
3. Jeff Delaney

For many years starting in the mid to late 80's Remy would use me as his primary demonstration partner. It was common for Remy to call out "Where is Tim?" when it was time for some one to get cracked. Remy let me go to the seminars & camps free. I hadn't paid to attend in over 8 years. There were a couple occasions were the hosts were obstinate and insisted on charging, but if I paid for 4 events in the last five years that would be a lot.

Chuck Gauss came on the scene in the early 90's. Remy like Chuck and the two of us would share the beatings. For a while you would run into Chuck, myself or both of us at most seminars in North America. Chuck and I would laugh at each other while Remy would lay the smack down. I gave us the nickname of the "Pinata Brothers".

Jeff Delaney was very visable for the last year and a half. He was the last to manage Remy's website and would have a lot of contact with him.

For the last 2-3 years Chuck and I would attend less seminars and more camps. We both had our own seminar series to help spread the art. This made it harder for us to attend weekly seminars. We still made the rounds just not as much. I can't speak for Chuck, but in 2000 alone I assisted at 7 camps and 4 seminars. I also taught 10 of my own seminars and 2 camps.

Since Arnisador brought up Ken Smith's claim I will say something about it. Ken would go to several camps a year, but when it came to seminars he would only attend the ones near home. Mao himself quoted Ken to me saying "Remy comes to Chicago enough in a year I don't need to follow him around". Remy would go to the Chicago area 3-4 times a year. In this case I would say that there was a lot of exaggertion in the statment that he made. He is not the first nor the last to make things sound larger then they are.

:asian:

 

[Mao]

As distasteful as I think it is, I must clarify something. What was said to me was "people in Chicago don't travel to seminars too much because they don't have to, The Professor is here all the time." This having been said, I have seen all the MOTT's as well as Renegade move, with and without canes. As far as Chuck, Ken, Dr. Shea and Tim are concerned, I consider them all very talented. I think that the best way to formulate an opinion is to be as informed as you can be. Go see them all. Go to a camp where they'll be and look at them. Train with them. Cross sticks with them. Go empty hand with them. Check them out. Then come and see me. You'll see that I'm the best technician/teacher hands down. Humor aside (is it really humor? ) Don't go by what you hear. Go see for yourself.

 

[Mao]

Also, if we're going to be so open and honest, I think that Tim will be the first to admit that he has an issue with Ken. Tim is human (I use the term loosely) and I think that his issue with Ken, at times, colors his views and opinion of him. Even so, they are both talented.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
Also, if we're going to be so open and honest, I think that Tim will be the first to admit that he has an issue with Ken.

More than Mr. Smith in particular I meant to say that not all of the people who are claiming to have "traveled and trained extensively with the Professor" (as so many claim) could really have been doing so. It just doesn't add up. I absolutely agree that crossing sticks with these people is the best way to form an opinion but I must repeat that 8 years seems like a short time to go from "just started Modern Arnis" to "Master of Tapi-Tapi/master of Modern Arnis", even if one had prior martial arts experience--wouldn't you find it suspicious if you learned that someone could go from beginner in an art to master of it in such a short time? Do you really think you for example could pick up a new art and master it in such a short time? I don't believe that I could. I do mean suspicious of the art here, by the way--the Professor gave out rank like candy, as I've said before. I am prepared to believe that Mr. Smith is talented and skilled but I don't think such a rapid rise reflects well on the art as a whole.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

For the record I never said nor meant to imply that Ken is a hack. Even though we don't see eye to eye, I still think that he is talented. That being said, the point Arnisador was making was how some of the MOTTs may being exaggerating how they would travel with Remy. The example used was Kenny's site. As talented as Kenny may be the only time you would see him out of Chicago was at a Camp.

Ken's site says "He has traveled with Professor Presas around the country training with the Grandmaster." This says traveled with. Not many people traveled with Remy, and as much as I dislike Delaney I have to give him credit for doing such.

:asian: :soapbox:

 

[Mao]

I get your meaning. I agree that there are many who have not really earned their rank. Then again, how do you define earned. Suppose that someone does much to promote the art. There are other styles that have been around much longer in which after a certain level the requirements are to attend a certain # of seminars and log a certain # of hours teaching.
And as for me taking up another art and mastering it in a short time............................of course I could!! After all, I am the Great and Powerful.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Long Live King Mao the Mighty!

:asian: :rofl:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Maybe I'm a little Old School, but the years in issue is valid. If Kenny was doing Modern Arnis ONLY and was training with Remy on a regular basis (more than a couple times a year) I would be able to accept it. This is providing that Kenny would be training like a mad man. Modern Arnis was or still is his secondary art. He does Isshinryu Karate as his primary art. Maybe he is in the process of switching over to do it as a primary style but that takes a while.

You can a the man out of karate, but you can't take the Karate out of the man.

 

[Mao]

The term training with is getting a little ambigious. If someone travels on the same flight, to the same place, to do the same thing, and stays at the same hotels, is that not traveling with someone? I think so. I do not think that Ken should be nor do I think that he desrerves to be cast in a bad light. Sh-t, I traveled with Remy. I trained in the same hotel room with him. We ate at the same restaurants, alone. If I met John Q. at the airport, went to the same destination, did the same thing, stayed in the same hotel, I would say that we traveled together. Ken is where Remy put him. Who are we to question his motives now, posthumously I might add. Renegade is where Remy wanted him. With his blessing. But He is not Remy's blood relative. He and Remy argued. Remy was mad at him. Remy refered to him as a "little child". This may sound a little harsh but I am only playing devils advocate here. Tim still had Remy's blessing to do what he is doing. I don't question that. Tim should not be cast in a bad light either. If you want details, one could go to islanderskarate.com and ask Ken. Just like one could ask Tim for his opinion or answer. I think Ken deserves to defend himself just like Renegade.

:soapbox:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
Maybe I'm a little Old School, but the years in issue is valid.

As Mr. Hartman is aware, I am very old school on this--very conservative--and I do think that this issue is valid. In my opinion it should take about 10 years to become a fully qualified instructor as a rule, though Modern Arnis has always advanced people more rapidly and, like BJJ, encouraged people to teach even before they became black belts.

Mao is quite right in asking what "earned" really means of course. I certainly don't think that one rule fits all arts.

Is it still so, I wonder, that Modern Arnis encourages people to teach prior to their becoming black belts? Do the IMAFs encourage people to teach even if they are not yet black belts? I would read Mr. Delaney's site as discouraging it but it is not perfectly clear. Do either of the IMAFs give out Basic Instructor certificates as the Professor's IMAF used to do?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
The term training with is getting a little ambigious.

Perhaps, but I think that there's a connotation to it that is not ambiguous--the Professor's intention to have a person with him for the purposes of training that person, as opposed to "merely" traveling and staying together. It is a semantics issue, but looking at http://www.modernarnis.net/about/master.shtml I see this claim made, in about the same words, by Dr. Schea, Mr. Ladis, Mr. Gauss, and Mr. Smith, and we know the same claim has been made by Mr. Delaney and Mr. hartman (and I am unclear, Mao, if you meant to make that claim for yourself or merely to indicate the ambiguity). That's a heck of an entourage--it just doesn't add up. Again, this is not about Mr. Smith or any one individual on the above list; it's about the plausibility of all them having "trained and traveled extensively with Professor Remy Presas since 1990" to quote from the description under Mr. Ladis' name. It's too many people to have been doing that to an extent that a modest person would find worth advertising (dare I say trumpeting). I don't know who isn't telling it quite straight but I do not believe that they all are telling the whole unblemished truth. Again, it just doesn't add up.

Ken is where Remy put him. Who are we to question his motives now, posthumously I might add.

I must agree, but in measure. This was the Professor's choice. But we might also remember that many of these choices were made after his surgery and during his long illness and so we may be justified in questioning them to a certain extent. But i fundamentally agree with you--we should try to respect the Professor's wishes, and the MOTTs represented his vision of the future of the IMAF.

Renegade is where Remy wanted him. With his blessing. But He is not Remy's blood relative. He and Remy argued. Remy was mad at him. Remy refered to him as a "little child".

Yes, this was a difficult situation. Given that the Professor wanted to promote him to 7th degree it's hard to know how things would have turned out had he accepted that. The MOTTs may have been Plan B in that regard--I do not know.

I think Ken deserves to defend himself just like Renegade.

I regret that his name continues to come up in this regard. I meant the aggregrate--not all of the claims can be accurate in my opinion. I cannot say whose claims are fully correct and whose aren't of course.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Mao,
Ken was just the example we referred to, nothing was meant as a personal attack. I'm blunt, to say the least, when it comes to my opinions. At times I've been referred to as a prick. So I'll go to Jim Ladis' claims."trained and traveled extensively with Professor Remy Presas since 1990" What is trained extensive? Once a year, month, week?

I would think that it would be safe to say that I have trained with Remy more than anyone else in the IMAF. When I was starting out, he would come to Buffalo at least four times a year. His office was here for several years. He was also dating a woman here. It was almost a monthly occurence to see Remy in Buffalo. Even if Remy never came to Buffalo, I would see him a lot on the road. I've been in the art over twenty years seeing him on the road. With all that time logged in, I still wouldn't say that I've trained with him extensively.

As you know, I've been training with GM Buot for over a year now. I go there once a month. I do private lessons with him, three hours each visit. I would say that this training is more time than anyone in the IMAF would get with Remy in several years. I still don't consider it extensive. It's only 36 hours a year. My average student would get over 100 hours logged in my school.

Much of the Modern Arnis seminars are review. Remy would have the Black Belts walk around the room and help teach. If you were lucky, he would drag you a side for a minute or two and work with you. This was common at most of the seminars for the last few years. Keeping this in mind, what definition of the word "extensive" is being used?

Mao wrote
I think Ken deserves to defend himself just like Renegade.
I'm not attacking Ken, but if he is not a member of this forum that is by his choice. When I helped Kaith with getting members on this site I sent out over 1500 e-mails to promote it. Ken was part of that list. I would also think, but may be wrong in thinking that you may have told the IMAFers by now about it. If he wants to put his 2 cents in, let him.

I want to close with that being blunt and direct doesn't mean it's a personal attack. I just don't like mixing words. This sometimes gets misinterpreted as being an attack.


:asian: :soapbox: :uhoh:

 

[Mao]

It is 12:30 a.m. and I am tired. I am not a beginner to modern arnis or martial arts in general. Of cource it should take more than 4,5,6, years or whatever to become a "master". I don't like the term anyway. No, arnisador, I was not including myself. Yes, some things should be questioned. Is Renegades offer, allegedly by Remy to be a 7th degree on paper? Is his alleged offer to be the succesor on paper? If not then Renegade believes that he should be under scrutiny. But why should he be if many people had seen him, over time, move, train and teach. I have seen him do these things. I have also seen Ken do these things. I wouldn't snipe at either of them. Perhaps Ken is not on this site because he doesn't want to argue. Perhaps he has better things to do. I don't know. I am getting a little tired of "taking up the cross" on this issue. People will think what they will and do what they will. I have remained in contact with Kelly Worden. We are friends and I can speak to some issues concerning him, with his knowledge......because I asked for details. One could do the same with Ken. I'm sure that many have heard the prayer "God grant me the serenity.....". Well, I think that I have the wisdom to know the difference in this case. How can this issue be solved? Can it be? I have faith in those with whom I assiciate. This includes Ken, Dr. Shea, Chuck and even Renegade among others.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just a few comments:

on the membership here : Everyone is welcome, provided they can behave in a reasonably civilized manner. To the best of my knowledge, invitations to take a look at this forum went out to over 2000+ individuals. Postings were done on RMA, and several other forums. Many of you have linked your sites to us. We get a LOT! of traffic (down a bit this month due to holidays). To the best of my knowledge, we have members of 3 of the 4 MA orgs here. AFAIK, none of the MOTTs are here, in a membership way. They may be lurking. JD was sent -2- invites. No reply was received. He, and every student of -any- martial art is welcome here.

on who/what/where with Remy: Many people trained with him. Now, you can define "trained extensively" in several ways.
1- saw him do a lot of seminars
2- took alot of classes he was involved with.
3-etc.

I personally define it as "Trained on a regular basis (several hours a month minimum), with serious interaction (not 2-3 min), over a period of several years. Also assisted with multiple seminars, all over the world, regularly.
If ya meet that, then I think ya qualify.


I've been to all parties websites. 3 outta 4 claim to be the top dog. 2 have obviously questionable comments on them. You guys in the know, who've driven the miles, and worn out the gear by the truckload...you know the truth. The rest of us, don't. We have to trust those who head our respective orgs to be honest, and truthful with us. Funny thing....you'd think we were owed that much. Because, if you can't tell us the truth about our lineage...how can we trust you to train us, and guide our martial development? The politics and game playing continue to blur the truth into a piccassoesque display.

I could go on, but I rapidly loose my train of thought....try and play nice the next few days folks...I gotta go deal with the family, and thats enough stress.

Peace.

:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

I'll vouch for his once a month classes. He swings by my city on the way and drags me to the local bar.
:shrug:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade
What is trained extensive? Once a year, month, week?

This, and Mr. Hartman's comment that training with the Professor largely meant a few minutes stolen here or there as opposed to a couple of hours at a time on a regular basis, goes to the heart of my objection to the use of the "traveled and trained extensively" claims. If Mr. Ladis (say) has been doing this since 1990 then I am surprised that I have not seen him more often. I have made no camps in the past couple of years but made many in the early 1990s and have continued to attend the seminars.

I've been in the art over twenty years seeing him on the road.

Mr. Hartman, is this statement strictly correct? I remember you starting sometime in 1981-1983 but I don't recall exactly when it was. You demonstrated some techniques for me well before I began studying under you seriously which was not later than the summer of 1987.

Much of the Modern Arnis seminars are review. Remy would have the Black Belts walk around the room and help teach. If you were lucky, he would drag you a side for a minute or two and work with you. This was common at most of the seminars for the last few years.

This has been my experience, but I am ware that some people did have the chance to train with him outside of a camp or seminar situation. It has always been my understanding that these were brief and irregular sessions that would not constitute "extensive training", e.g., the occasional impromptu hotel room session as mentioned by Mao.

I don't believe that all those people travled and trained extensively with the Professor under any but the most forgiving interpretation of those terms. I think it's hyperbolic language and to those who have had the experiences to which Mr. Hartman refers--seeing how the Professor truly "trained" people--it rings hollow. Frankly, extensive training wasn't something I ever saw the Professor does--directing Mr. Hartman to Mr. Buot was probably the closest he ever came to that.

It's not my intention to suggest that Mao should defend anyone who isn't here, in case that isn't clear. I am continuing to study the two IMAFs and MARPPIO. These exaggerated claims do not improve the standing of the IMAF, Inc. in my eyes.

 

[Mao]

I feel the draw to defend not only "someone who isn't here" but the IMAF,inc. in general considering I am on the board. I do not take my affiliations lightly. I have tremendous respect for Dr. Shea even beyond the martial arts arena. There are more than a couple of org's. that tout certain training that is perhaps a little embelished. There are those who claim to have been 'training in " bando who in reality have only been to a few seminars. I would call that "dabbling" in at best. Dr. Gyi himself has been under fire recently. He brought bando the U.S. for crying out loud! Why is he under fire? For embelishing his military history. Does this negate his martial talent? I would say not. Renegade would agree, I believe. People train with him in spite of this. Why? Because he has so much to offer. Again we must go see in order to make an informed decision. We must be careful to not take every word as gospel. Arnisador questions Renegades "over 20 years" comment". If you look at it carefully you may find that he said "in the art...", he did not sayI]specifically[/I] modern arnis. It could be that he has been into FMA for that long but not necessarily modern arnis specifically. Does this nagate his ability? Is this the sort of hair splitting we should be doing?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao
Arnisador questions Renegades "over 20 years" comment". If you look at it carefully you may find that he said "in the art...", he did not sayI]specifically[/I] modern arnis. It could be that he has been into FMA for that long but not necessarily modern arnis specifically.

Mr. Hartman was not studying any martial art prior to Modern Arnis, at least not in any formal sense. He began about 20 years ago but I don't recall exactly when.

Does this nagate his ability?

Actually, I was questioning his ability in mathematics.

 

[Mao]

Well, I don't question his mathematics, or his spelling.........they both su-k. Hee hee
It occurs to me that Renegade told me once that he was a student of Mr. Jornales first. I'm sure that he won't hesitate to speak if he remembers it differently. Izint that rite Regenade?