The Problem with Today's Ninjutsu...

[Yamabushii]

Omar, I think 10 years of training is what you mentioned when you joined this site 6 years ago, right?

I have also never met Yamabushii in person, so I have no particular knowledge of or opinion regarding his skill level.

What I will say, from my perspective of having trained martial arts for 42 years and BJJ for 24 years, is that I know people who have "only" been training for 10-15-20 years who are much more skilled, more accomplished, and more knowledgeable in their martial art(s) than I am in mine. Mat hours, quality of instruction, and even natural talent all play a role.

It can be fun to play the "I've been training longer than you've been alive, kid" card. But I know all too well how much I have to learn from some of these "kids,"

Negative. At that time it was only 10 years in Ninpo, but overall around 20 years in martial arts as a whole. Still not as much as some of the others here, but I'm really in no competition with anyone else.

 

[drop bear]

Omar, I think 10 years of training is what you mentioned when you joined this site 6 years ago, right?

I have also never met Yamabushii in person, so I have no particular knowledge of or opinion regarding his skill level.

What I will say, from my perspective of having trained martial arts for 42 years and BJJ for 24 years, is that I know people who have "only" been training for 10-15-20 years who are much more skilled, more accomplished, and more knowledgeable in their martial art(s) than I am in mine. Mat hours, quality of instruction, and even natural talent all play a role.

It can be fun to play the "I've been training longer than you've been alive, kid" card. But I know all too well how much I have to learn from some of these "kids,"

Regardless. I have been training longer than you in a style more legitimate than you is style bashing.

So there is that.

 

[drop bear]

Negative. At that time it was only 10 years in Ninpo, but overall around 20 years in martial arts as a whole. Still not as much as some of the others here, but I'm really in no competition with anyone else.

Bear in mind it isn't something you have to defend.

 

[Yamabushii]

Bear in mind it isn't something you have to defend.

You're a good man, sir. I truly appreciate it.

At the end of the day, my students and I are just open books for all sorts of martial knowledge. Most of my students have experience in other arts. One of my students has trained far longer than me, has almost 3x as many black belts as I do, and is a two-time martial arts hall of famer. We joke sometimes when I ask him what the heck he is doing with me, but at the end of the day, he finds value in what I teach and how I teach, and in turn, I respect his experience and learn from him at the same time. The same goes for most of my students who have prior martial arts experience, including folks from MMA, BJJ, wrestling, boxing, taekwondo, tang soo do, and Judo. May have left out a few, but comparing people based off the level of years they have been training really speaks to other people's character more than the points they are desperately trying to make. And a quick look into Chris Parker's posts shows he has a tendency to speak (type) in a fairly condescending manner - something I've distanced myself from WRT some of the more traditional Ninpo orgs I have dealt with in the past.

At the end of the day, if Chris or anyone else from the forum here would like to stop by my dojo if they ever find themselves in the area, I'll welcome anyone with open arms for an even exchange of information. To me, martial arts isn't a pissing contest. It's just to learn what we can in a short lifespan, and the proof can then present itself without putting each other down on online forums.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Lucinda Dickey was a true representative of the art of Ninjutsu

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To my knowledge, was either by the national government, the domain (now prefecture) level, or daimyos. If anyone else here knows different, I'm listening.

Would there be a modern-day position analogous to the daimyo (from a social perspective)?

But here's something else to consider: if there were ninjas doing "ninja stuff" on their own with no authorization from those who held some form of legitimate office, then wouldn't that reduce them to thugs, criminals, and gang members? A precursor to the Yakuza, if you will?

It seems it'd make them analogous to ronin - which could arguably be what you're saying. The question is, would that mean they're no longer ninja (I don't think ronin were considered "non-samurai")?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Omar, I think 10 years of training is what you mentioned when you joined this site 6 years ago, right?

I have also never met Yamabushii in person, so I have no particular knowledge of or opinion regarding his skill level.

What I will say, from my perspective of having trained martial arts for 42 years and BJJ for 24 years, is that I know people who have "only" been training for 10-15-20 years who are much more skilled, more accomplished, and more knowledgeable in their martial art(s) than I am in mine. Mat hours, quality of instruction, and even natural talent all play a role.

It can be fun to play the "I've been training longer than you've been alive, kid" card. But I know all too well how much I have to learn from some of these "kids,"

I've been training for about as long as you have, and I'll second this. I think your 42 years (specifically, the latter half of it) probably goes farther than my 41 years. And, like you, I've known people who developed in several ways much faster than me, for many of the same reasons. I suspect I have a theoretical/conceptual understanding that is well above average, but there are certainly those who - with less calendar time - have become better teachers, technicians, and/or fighters than me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bear in mind it isn't something you have to defend.

Agreed. But it does help to give some context to discussions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You're a good man, sir. I truly appreciate it.

At the end of the day, my students and I are just open books for all sorts of martial knowledge. Most of my students have experience in other arts. One of my students has trained far longer than me, has almost 3x as many black belts as I do, and is a two-time martial arts hall of famer. We joke sometimes when I ask him what the heck he is doing with me, but at the end of the day, he finds value in what I teach and how I teach, and in turn, I respect his experience and learn from him at the same time. The same goes for most of my students who have prior martial arts experience, including folks from MMA, BJJ, wrestling, boxing, taekwondo, tang soo do, and Judo. May have left out a few, but comparing people based off the level of years they have been training really speaks to other people's character more than the points they are desperately trying to make. And a quick look into Chris Parker's posts shows he has a tendency to speak (type) in a fairly condescending manner - something I've distanced myself from WRT some of the more traditional Ninpo orgs I have dealt with in the past.

At the end of the day, if Chris or anyone else from the forum here would like to stop by my dojo if they ever find themselves in the area, I'll welcome anyone with open arms for an even exchange of information. To me, martial arts isn't a pissing contest. It's just to learn what we can in a short lifespan, and the proof can then present itself without putting each other down on online forums.

My favorite students were mostly those with significant prior training. All of those were better than me at something - usually at least one thing that I taught, which was really cool. I got to learn from them, sharpen myself on them where they were better, and let them share some of that knowledge with other students. They also tended to question things better (and more) than those new to MA.

 

[dunc]

I agree with this

To me, martial arts isn't a pissing contest. It's just to learn what we can in a short lifespan, and the proof can then present itself without putting each other down on online forums.

I think you have to ask yourself are you making fast / efficient progress towards your objectives, are you enjoying the ride and are you honest with yourself and your students about what you’re teaching

Doing these things over time isn’t easy actually, particularly if you’re running a dojo

In terms of online forums, where it’s almost impossible to discern the skill level of posters, I find it helps to have some understanding of people’s credentials. I think it makes sense to attribute more weight to comments made by people with strong credentials vs a beginner for example. Credentials in martial arts are probably a function of time (measurable eg 10 years), effort (not so measurable), quality/quality of instruction (pretty measurable, eg taught by XXX) & natural talent (not measurable). So it’s possible to get some idea of someone’s credentials on a forum like this (albeit not a complete view). That’s not to say you should discount beginners’ comments or take experts’ opinions without challenge/scrutiny

Also martial artists like to differentiate themselves from others in their style & their style from other styles. It’s natural for people to believe that their approach is better than others. So of course people will pop up on this forum and tell you that you’re doing it all wrong

The problem is that in martial arts it’s very, very hard to discern what is actually better. Historical accuracy is a fallacy and there‘s no way to prove it one way or the other. Practicality is very hard to prove outside of a specific sporting context. Even in sporting contexts there are techniques that are used successfully at the highest levels, but are easily countered if you know how

So in terms of marketing (the OP) I’m kinda a product guy. I believe it’s best to constantly seek out the best instruction you can, work hard to develop your skills (enjoying the grind of failing to learn) and always be honest about what you can offer your students. If you do that then I find the students come

But you will never get rid of the folk online who will disagree with your approach or what you’re offering

 

[Oily Dragon]

Lucinda Dickey was a true representative of the art of Ninjutsu

Is it true that only a ninja can destroy a ninja?

 

[Mider]

I’ve seen a few guys who are well respected

 

[Yamabushii]

My favorite students were mostly those with significant prior training. All of those were better than me at something - usually at least one thing that I taught, which was really cool. I got to learn from them, sharpen myself on them where they were better, and let them share some of that knowledge with other students. They also tended to question things better (and more) than those new to MA.

I agree 100%. Students can be just like teachers, it just depends on if instructors allow their egos to get in the way of seeing that or not.

 

[Yamabushii]

I agree with this

I think you have to ask yourself are you making fast / efficient progress towards your objectives, are you enjoying the ride and are you honest with yourself and your students about what you’re teaching

Doing these things over time isn’t easy actually, particularly if you’re running a dojo

In terms of online forums, where it’s almost impossible to discern the skill level of posters, I find it helps to have some understanding of people’s credentials. I think it makes sense to attribute more weight to comments made by people with strong credentials vs a beginner for example. Credentials in martial arts are probably a function of time (measurable eg 10 years), effort (not so measurable), quality/quality of instruction (pretty measurable, eg taught by XXX) & natural talent (not measurable). So it’s possible to get some idea of someone’s credentials on a forum like this (albeit not a complete view). That’s not to say you should discount beginners’ comments or take experts’ opinions without challenge/scrutiny

Also martial artists like to differentiate themselves from others in their style & their style from other styles. It’s natural for people to believe that their approach is better than others. So of course people will pop up on this forum and tell you that you’re doing it all wrong

The problem is that in martial arts it’s very, very hard to discern what is actually better. Historical accuracy is a fallacy and there‘s no way to prove it one way or the other. Practicality is very hard to prove outside of a specific sporting context. Even in sporting contexts there are techniques that are used successfully at the highest levels, but are easily countered if you know how

So in terms of marketing (the OP) I’m kinda a product guy. I believe it’s best to constantly seek out the best instruction you can, work hard to develop your skills (enjoying the grind of failing to learn) and always be honest about what you can offer your students. If you do that then I find the students come

But you will never get rid of the folk online who will disagree with your approach or what you’re offering

It can be challenging while running a dojo for sure. I've been very clear with my students to expect some adjustments to our curriculum a couple times a year as we all continue to grow, myself included, and they're okay with it as long as they're learning to be effective. Fairly occasionally I have friends from different martial arts either teach or drop in as guests to share their perspectives on how they would approach certain situations when sparring. Personally I'm finding success with discarding any techniques that are overly complex and focusing on simplicity, and if they can't work against someone actively resisting during sparring, then how the technique is taught needs to be improved. If it doesn't work against your sparring partners in the dojo, it won't work outside. To us, history and lineage are no longer relevant in the context of the effectiveness of a technique, but can be helpful simply for the sake of historical knowledge.

I like to keep multiple teachers in martial arts. Granted I don't get to see them as much as I'd like, but I do visit when I can. So I do completely agree with you, in all you've said.

I’ve seen a few guys who are well respected

In the ninpo community? I have as well - there certainly are some of them.

 

[Mider]

It can be challenging while running a dojo for sure. I've been very clear with my students to expect some adjustments to our curriculum a couple times a year as we all continue to grow, myself included, and they're okay with it as long as they're learning to be effective. Fairly occasionally I have friends from different martial arts either teach or drop in as guests to share their perspectives on how they would approach certain situations when sparring. Personally I'm finding success with discarding any techniques that are overly complex and focusing on simplicity, and if they can't work against someone actively resisting during sparring, then how the technique is taught needs to be improved. If it doesn't work against your sparring partners in the dojo, it won't work outside. To us, history and lineage are no longer relevant in the context of the effectiveness of a technique, but can be helpful simply for the sake of historical knowledge.

I like to keep multiple teachers in martial arts. Granted I don't get to see them as much as I'd like, but I do visit when I can. So I do completely agree with you, in all you've said.



In the ninpo community? I have as well - there certainly are some of them.

Idk 8f it’s Ninpo, but I like Master Steven Hayes stuff and guys who’ve trained under him

 

[Yamabushii]

Idk 8f it’s Ninpo, but I like Master Steven Hayes stuff and guys who’ve trained under him

Haha I'd rather keep my opinion of Mr. Hayes' ninpo history off the forums, but I really do like his student Hardee Merritt who runs the Chapel Hill (North Carolina) Quest Martial Arts dojo. His approach to ninpo taijutsu is pretty outstanding, but mind you, his ability to teach ninpo techniques so effectively comes from a more modern background in BJJ, which he holds a black belt in.

 

[drop bear]

It can be challenging while running a dojo for sure. I've been very clear with my students to expect some adjustments to our curriculum a couple times a year as we all continue to grow, myself included, and they're okay with it as long as they're learning to be effective. Fairly occasionally I have friends from different martial arts either teach or drop in as guests to share their perspectives on how they would approach certain situations when sparring. Personally I'm finding success with discarding any techniques that are overly complex and focusing on simplicity, and if they can't work against someone actively resisting during sparring, then how the technique is taught needs to be improved. If it doesn't work.

I really love that I do systems now where this is basically built in.

Where the technique that catches you is the technique that works.

That people are playing and experimenting with their own games.

And there is this collaboration of ideas and experience.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Haha I'd rather keep my opinion of Mr. Hayes' ninpo history off the forums, but I really do like his student Hardee Merritt who runs the Chapel Hill (North Carolina) Quest Martial Arts dojo. His approach to ninpo taijutsu is pretty outstanding, but mind you, his ability to teach ninpo techniques so effectively comes from a more modern background in BJJ, which he holds a black belt in.

Interesting. Anything particularly special about his method beyond BJJ? I live in that area and am always interested in a new place, if it fits my schedule.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Would there be a modern-day position analogous to the daimyo (from a social perspective)?

The last time that the US has had something like this would have been during the Civil War, when local civic and community leaders would be tasked with raising a battalion of men from the communities, that they would then command at the rank of colonel. Not exactly the same, but the closest thing we had. I know of no country in modern times - least of all any Western first world country - where entities outside of that country's national executive branch can raise armies independently of it.

 

[Yamabushii]

Interesting. Anything particularly special about his method beyond BJJ? I live in that area and am always interested in a new place, if it fits my schedule.

Oh you are lucky for sure. From the videos of his school I've seen, he does a solid job showing ninpo techniques through a more realistic lens. Here are two videos, one is a short and the other is a video where Youtuber Sensei Seth visits Hardee Merritt's dojo and sits in a class or two.

If you do go, I'd love to hear about your experience. I've thought about taking a long drive down to experience one of his classes in person.