i'm not surprised either, this is exactly what i hoped to find, and yes it has been (and will continue to be) an informative read.
No problem.
i am coming across like a fantasy fan, i see that. actually i have tried to stay as far away from 'claiming' Ninpo, or any martial art (the only one i earned a black belt in was Tang Soo Do), and instead have focused purely on relevant self defense(as i see it). privately, i have always held everything i've learned against the lessons i gleaned from the Bujinkan and other practioners, because i always felt that it aligned most specifically with my intention, part of that being to 'not look like a fight' and avoid calling attention to myself in this way.and there are techniques i learned from Ninpo practioners that i have never seen anywhere else, probably because they are too nasty for most modern schools. also some of the things i often see( in Aikido for instance) lack certain elements that would make them more realistic, the use of distancing, using the body to pin an arm rather than grabbing the wrist, subtle things that were related to me by observing Hatsumi"s Budo Taijutsu and I valued that instruction.
Hmm... without a more involved history in the art, the best I would suggest is that you've developed your own perception of what things like Hatsumi's art are about, and contain... and I don't know that it's particularly accurate. That doesn't mean it's not valuable to you, just that your take on things might not actually match the reality of them. Just something to be aware of.
when i was a kid i knew every dinosaur, because there were only like 12 of them. when my daughter was into them, few of those even existed anymore and there were 2000 new ones, this is kinda like that. there was very little to go on, last time i was looking. but so many hilarious fakes, i watched their videos too( we actually had to buy the VHS tape back then). amazing how much you can learn about what not to do, that can be useful too. i'm bummed that Hatsumi is not taken seriously though, but that video is undefendable, even though i want to, i can't.
Honestly, and this is one of the most important take-aways here, I don't think Hatsumi would care less what people think of his art, his performances, his techniques, or anything else. He has his audience, and plays to them... and, so long as they are appreciative, what does it matter what anyone else thinks? Same with the members of the Bujinkan. I'm under no illusion that my comments here will change the minds of any Bujinkan membership... it may get one or two to think about things a slightly different way, but that's about it. It's more about my being true to the reality of the situation as I see it... which has taken me to a perception that, understandably, can be a bit confronting for Hatsumi's supporters and fans... students of his or not.
And, really, it doesn't matter. Hatsumi will do what Hatsumi does, and his students will either follow it, or not. If they do, my words won't change their mind, and if they don't, then they stop being his students... it would be neither the first, nor the last time that would happen.
There was another school you mentioned earlier but not in this last post, the Kumogakure Ryu. I always liked what I saw of it's approach, i wonder now if it was legitimate in any way. is it true the the Kumogakre Ryu was related to Ba Gua?
Ah, Kumogakure Ryu... this is quite an intriguing topic... yeah, I left it off, and there are, of course, reasons for that...
Kumogakure Ryu has a fairly unique position in the Bujinkan ryu-ha... it's one of the three "ninjutsu" arts, along with Togakure Ryu and Gyokushin Ryu, and it's claimed history basically says that it was an off-shoot of Togakure, being founded around 1532 by one Iga Heinaizaemon Ienaga, so the idea of it being related to Ba Gua is... well, I honestly don't know where that idea even comes from. In fact, Kumogakure Ryu is quite contradictory in terms of information about it's technical and informational make-up...
Over the decades, realistically, the Bujinkan has taught using kata and methods from only 6 of the 9 schools, being Togakure, Gyokko, Koto, Shinden Fudo (Dakentaijutsu), Kukishinden, and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. The other three, Gikan, Gyokushin, and Kumogakure, have never really been officially revealed... there are a number of videos of Hatsumi and others teaching things that are claimed/referenced as these arts, however they are often contradictory to other sources claiming to be the same arts... combined with reports that Gyokushin and Kumogakure Ryu have no actual techniques or technical methods at all. So, you'll get one report stating some basic principles and technical traits of a school, then someone will show specific techniques (that contradict the first report), then someone will also say that Hatsumi told them there are no techniques... followed by someone else saying that Hatsumi has shown them techniques from it. So, yeah... in a real way, these arts might as well not exist practically.
Okay, so that's one side of things... the lack of material, and claimed history. We have that with three schools, so why did I say that Kumogakure is unique? Because it wasn't there originally.
In the 70's, Hatsumi was presenting himself as the soke of 8 ryu, not 9... being Togakure Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishinden Happo Biken (note: not Kukishinden Ryu... there are reasons, but I'm not getting into that here... at least, not yet...), Shinden Fudo Ryu, Gikan Ryu (another interesting case... the dispute over proper sokeship came up in a court case involving Hatsumi and Tanemura... and Tanemura was recognised as having the legitimate claim...), and Gyokushin Ryu. This was how he described himself in his letter to the Kuki family, when he was presenting himself as the 28th Soke of Kukishinden Happo Biken, and they were asking about his connection to their school, and how it differed, considering his teacher was their former Shihan. Then, a few years after Takamatsu died, he announced he was also the soke of Kumogakure Ryu, with a lineage presented having it travel through the Toda family to Takamatsu, then to Hatsumi. It is interesting to note, however, that in no older records are there any mention of Kumogakure Ryu coming via Toda to Takamatsu... nor of Takamatsu mentioning it that I have found... for instance, there is no mention of it in Andy Adams' "Ninja: The Invisible Assassins", one of the earliest properly researched books in English from the 60's... although most of the other schools are (Shinden Fudo Ryu is just referred to as Fudo Ryu, Kukishinden is called Kukishin, Takagi Yoshin is just Takagi, Gyokko, Koto, and Togakure are all named as well... Gikan and Gyokushin are also missing, for the record).
So, is it true that Kumogakure Ryu is related to Ba Gua? Let's safety say... no.
Chris, thanks for clarifying the "Hatsumi Kensei" thing. I was shocked to hear that. It didn't sound right, but so much about Ninjutsu never does.
Oh, read on... there's a bit of clarification below that you may find interesting...
On the "suffering" translation you're right, I could have been more clear. I didn't mean literal pain suffering, but as you said the endurance of it. From Chinese Ren fa/Jan fat.
Which is the central idea I think of when I think of ninpo, the ability to withstand. That's where I see overlap with the concept of kung fu, since both imply a willingness to train to overcome obstacles, hardship, whatever. I know Ren Fa is also found in Shaolin scripture, I'll try to find where I read that.
Does that make more sense? I won't be able to finish reading your posts until after the holidays, but they sure look informative from space.
Hope you get something out of them.
@tim po Youāll find that folks on here hold differing views on Hatsumi, his skill and the veracity of the traditions he teaches
As with every human endeavour folks align themselves into a particular tribe or group and work hard to provide arguments to reinforce their tribeās position
Sports martial artists have an issue with his assertion that certain techniques canāt be sparred and the lack of sparring in the general Bujinkan community
Koryu practitioners have an issue with his assertion that the traditions need to continually evolve in order to survive and that this is part of the tradition
Independents tend to look for gaps in what he teaches and illustrate how they have filled those gaps with their own training/research in order to differentiate themselves
I have an agenda because Iāve been deeply involved in the Bujinkan for over 30 years
and so on
Youāll have to make up your own mindā¦
Hmm... cautioning against bias is perfectly valid, however I would say to be careful trying to generalise such bias'. For example, I have not heard of any koryu practitioner or teacher having any issue with Hatsumi's assertions about "evolving"... we do say that his approach is not koryu, which it isn't... but to attribute a value to that is to misunderstand the statement. Additionally, to say that "independents tend to look for gaps in what (Hatsumi) teaches..." again, flagrantly misrepresents the situation.
Speaking for myself, who is both independent Takamatsuden and koryu, both statements are thoroughly inaccurate. As koryu, we don't care what Hatsumi does or believes about how his martial arts should be done, or what should happen with his schools... they're his, and it's up to him. We do care when Bujinkan practitioners make out that what they're doing is koryu, and more so when they try to explain koryu or koryu mentality to us. Speaking as an independent, we don't look for anything in what Hatsumi does, especially not "gaps"... we do, however, aim to be true to our understanding and values... and that is what leads to separation in the main.
This is the thing about not being Bujinkan... we don't really care what the Bujinkan does. I know I don't. I care about the arts themselves, and, frankly, don't see them in the Bujinkan at all.
The other point is that having a particular vantage point does not necessarily mean that the perception is invalid... having a different perspective doesn't mean it's not a correct, or valuable one. But rarely does it go to the idea of "reinforcing their tribe's position"... that, really, is more cult-speak than anything else. Koryu aren't a "tribe". Independents aren't a "tribe". Sports practitioners aren't a "tribe". None of these groups agree even with each other, so none are reinforcing the ideas or positions of some imaginary group-mind. Nor is any of this necessarily rising to the level of "agenda".
The reality is simple; we all speak from our own experience and understanding. That's all. Can those experiences and that understanding be skewed, or off? Certainly. Can they be imbalanced, or unnecessarily inaccurate? Sure. That's why you take all the information you can get, and weight it against your own experience and understanding... but, and this is the important point in all of this, not all experience and understanding is equal. The opinions of someone with only one viewpoint contrasted with one with multiple cannot be equally assessed... by the same token, the more emotionally invested cannot be deemed equivalent to the measured. As you say, it's up to the reader to try to figure which is which...
You can probably google my post about the living cultural treasure ( JÅ«yÅ Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha) and reach your own conclusions
Say, there's a good idea...
List of all (ALL) recipients of the Juyo Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha award (performing arts), and the categories they were given it in:
en.wikipedia.org
Again, there is no category for martial arts. There is no martial artist who has EVER been given such an award. None.
And, as already explained, Hatsumi was not given this award... he was given an award for the promotion of Japanese culture, which is an award from the royal family (but not the Emperor)... I mean, you can continue to argue against the facts, but it's not going to help your cause.
My comment about the sword association was based on my personal experience (hence I donāt know the exact details), but probably it will be googleable. Basically when he was teaching sword these old dudes turned up to training in the Ayase Budokan taking notes and having long discussions with Soke and the shihan. I was there. After a while folks shared that heād earned the highest award as a sword master from this group, and he has the certificate on his office wall (along with all the other stuff like that) for all to see
Okay, this took a bit more digging... again, as stated, there is no such thing as a "kensei" award, nor is anyone in any position to give one... but I did find what you're talking about.
Hatsumi was given an award labeled "Todo Hanshi" from a group called the Zen Nippon Todo Renmei, and it's then-president, Nakazawa Toshi. The award name basically means "model teacher of the path of the sword"... not quite the "Master Teacher of the Way of the Sword" as many Bujinkan pages put it... but there's quite a bit to unpack.
Firstly, the only record/account of this award is purely in relation to Hatsumi. It was awarded in February, 1995... which is some 6 years after the Zen Nippon Todo Renmei was formed. So, naturally, the question has to be, who is this group? Basically, they're a bit of an odd grouping, and a very small association (with a handful of members). They were formed in 1989, when a few former members of a Battodo Renmei decided to form their own association (haven't found the reason, but, it could be almost anything, from being kicked out, to being refused promotion, to, well, just wanting to do their own thing). They were headed by Nakazawa Satoshi (all the Bujinkan pages seem to get his name a bit wrong, for the record), who acted as the first chairman... and set about creating their own set of techniques.
What they focus on, though, isn't so much sword as martial artists would view it... its tate (stage fighting). The "head instructor", Hayashi Kunihiro, teaches stage fighting, focused on sword combat, and, well, that's what they do. He has also since created his own "ninjutsu" system, Hayashi-den Ninja Taijutsu... although what it's based on is another question.
So, what we have is a small, minor organisation of little relevance, with little credibility in terms of sword arts (stage fighting, tv and movie choreography, maybe... but that's all they actually do), who turned up at Hatsumi's class, and, without any real authority other than their own self-appointed one (and, to be clear, absolutely no authority over or credibility in assessing any other arts that are not part of their association), who decided (for their own reasons) to give Hatsumi an award, based on.... something?
To be honest, it looks like they were seeking to add to their own credibility by associating with Hatsumi, hence the new "ninja" art they also created... but their seal of approval is, bluntly, meaningless. You might as well say that he got the super Naruto award for the purplest hair... and, again, I can't see any legitimate sword association awarding Hatsumi anything for any purpose other than political reasons. Speaking purely as a sword practitioner of a range of schools, Hatsumi's sword is... terrible. Hey, if you like it, great... but that's a preference question, not a quality one.
There are several students of Hatsumi who also train in Koryu arts. One western Japan resident is Mark Lithgow. Iāve only heard that their teachers treat Hatsumi sensei with respect, but probably there are some Japanese Koryu practitioners who feel differently
Yeah... the Japanese will twist themselves into knots to avoid creating an uncomfortable situation... so speaking of him respectfully, considering his position, is almost expected, really... that's very different from thinking he has much to offer, or has genuine credibility.
A friend of mine here teaches an art he learnt from his father... who inherited the school from my friends godfather, the founder of the school in the UK. This founder spun some interesting stories about where the various aspects of the school came from (including claiming some Katori, some Takenouchi, and so on), however, it's patently obvious to anyone who knows these schools (or classical Japanese arts) that, no, what we have is a modern mash-up of some basic Judo, Karate, Aikido (well, not really, but they have some spinny-twisty locks that bear a superficial resemblance), largely Okinawan weapons (and Japanese weapons used in an Okinawan fashion), along with a lot of aping and coping (without understanding or insight) of some genuine schools. Still, my friend is convinced that, because his father and godfather taught the school, and there's no way they'd lie to him, it must be genuine... so, each year (at least, up to the global situation), he would go to Japan to try to research and retrace his godfathers' path, finding the origins of his art. It's a futile task, as he'll never find what isn't there, but he's developed a good network of Japanese martial arts teachers, and puts on demonstrations at a few Budokans in front of them... they all nod approvingly, thank him, and praise his efforts and skills... tell him how good his arts are... because that's the Japanese way.
I'm not saying that that's definitely what Mark's teachers are doing, but it would be completely within the Japanese approach... and, really, the majority of koryu teachers around, especially if you get them speaking candidly, may be diplomatic in their language, but will not be overly complimentary of him.
I agree with folks that the ground work in the Bujinkan is nonexistent and the only video where he shows anything like that is the one posted on this thread. If you look carefully at the clips heās showing variations of trap and roll, but his partners donāt have a clue what theyāre doing on the ground so he has no need to move in a big way and can mess around with catching them with āearly unexpected stuffā which he likes to do (because heās old and likes to be creative)
Yeah... look, Dunc, this smacks of the apologetic speech that is sadly all too common. Yes, there's basically no ne-waza in the Bujinkan's arts... there is a little bit (albeit nothing like the context of BJJ), but the issue isn't whether you can find some kind of connection to more commonly found techniques, it's how much understanding of the environment and context is present. That's what Hanzou is talking about. And, for context, it's what I see when I see Hatsumi's sword work as well (hence the above comments).
I get the creative bent that Hatsumi has... I get the appeal it has as well... and, if that's what you're after, or what you value, great! More power to you! But when that creative bent takes him into areas that he is less skilled or insightful in, making apologies for him, and making out that what he's doing is valid, or worse, excellent (not saying that's what you're doing, but it is far from uncommon in the Bujinkan), simply adds to the issues of reputation that the Bujinkan already has.
www.selfdefenseguides.info
stlbujinkan.com
