Modern Arnis for Self Defence not for fighting ?
- Thread starter Black Grass
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ARNIS PRINCESS
Yellow Belt
Mao and Arnisador -
Perhaps you can clear something up for me-
You both had a problem with Renegade using a person's name in an incident he was relating-
Many people have used other peoples names in past posts and nobody seems to have a problem with that.
I am sure that both of these quotes could have been stated without the person's name, but they were not. They were part of the story, just as the name in Renegade's post was part of the story. I didn't take it from the perspective that Renegade was trying to belittle the person. He even went so far as to say that the point he was trying to make was that most people don't train for real live fights.
If you feel that names should not be used in posts, then perhaps that rule should apply to everybody at all times not to just certain people when they strike a nerve.
ARNIS PRINCESS
Perhaps you can clear something up for me-
You both had a problem with Renegade using a person's name in an incident he was relating-
Many people have used other peoples names in past posts and nobody seems to have a problem with that.
I am sure that both of these quotes could have been stated without the person's name, but they were not. They were part of the story, just as the name in Renegade's post was part of the story. I didn't take it from the perspective that Renegade was trying to belittle the person. He even went so far as to say that the point he was trying to make was that most people don't train for real live fights.
If you feel that names should not be used in posts, then perhaps that rule should apply to everybody at all times not to just certain people when they strike a nerve.
ARNIS PRINCESS
That's too strong. I agreed that it would have been better had he not done so.
I am confident that all would understand the basic rule of common courtesy that is at work with respect to the reference to Mr. Smith--Mao has addressed this issue.
As to the suggestion that I agreed with Mao because Mr. Hartman's comments happened to "strike a nerve" with me, rather than because I felt that Mao was in the right, I would say: I see that you feel you have a stake in this matter. However, if I have offended Mr. Hartman then I think it would be best for him to contact me directly to discuss the issue.
Arnis Princess,
I will not belabor the point in public. It is less than professional.
I think that tapi tapi can be trained in more than one way. If you get caught up in all the locks (no pun intended) you miss the point. What it teaches is a flow. Muscle memory. The idea is not to expect to continously lock up someone. Along with each lock should be a hit, either following up w/ the cane or your empty hand or a take down or something. Just as the point to the 6 count drill is not to expect to do the dance with an opponent but to work each movement and explore their applications. Many of us had heard the Prof. say to explore the anyos or other movements saying " it is all there, you have it already". If you explore, many counters become serindipitiously apparent. This has led myself, Whoopass and others to even more tapi tapi. Tapi tapi means counter for counter. It is another training tool.
In my experience, joint locks and disarms are often incidental. You can't just stand back and think "when he throws this punch, I'm gonna whip this really cool joint lock on him." As Prof. Presas had said so often, it's all about the flow. Tapi tapi teaches to flow from one lock to the next and the next and so on. Of course you stand there and fight that way. What if he disengages and steps back. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has heard "when he pulls go with him, when he pushes take him there and when there is nothing, hit."
I will not belabor the point in public. It is less than professional.
I think that tapi tapi can be trained in more than one way. If you get caught up in all the locks (no pun intended) you miss the point. What it teaches is a flow. Muscle memory. The idea is not to expect to continously lock up someone. Along with each lock should be a hit, either following up w/ the cane or your empty hand or a take down or something. Just as the point to the 6 count drill is not to expect to do the dance with an opponent but to work each movement and explore their applications. Many of us had heard the Prof. say to explore the anyos or other movements saying " it is all there, you have it already". If you explore, many counters become serindipitiously apparent. This has led myself, Whoopass and others to even more tapi tapi. Tapi tapi means counter for counter. It is another training tool.
In my experience, joint locks and disarms are often incidental. You can't just stand back and think "when he throws this punch, I'm gonna whip this really cool joint lock on him." As Prof. Presas had said so often, it's all about the flow. Tapi tapi teaches to flow from one lock to the next and the next and so on. Of course you stand there and fight that way. What if he disengages and steps back. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has heard "when he pulls go with him, when he pushes take him there and when there is nothing, hit."
I would agree with this. It applies even to simple drills like single and double sinawali--one doesn't expect to follow them in lock-step but rather one expects that after any individual hit one might enter, disengage, change direction, trap, or what have you. It's important to tarin with that mindset. I agree that the joint locks and disarms are incidental, or better yet I might say that they are targets of opportunity and to use your word of serendipity--they do indeed "just happen" if they happen. But they don't happen--at all--between escrimadors of equal skill, in my experience. For that the basic strikes are what carry the day.
Yes, there's a world of wisdom there. I've often thought that one could build an entire art around kuzushi--and other times I've thought that nearly every decent art is built around it, even if they off-balance the opponent by the use of striking techniques.
This is in response to the following comment by arnisador:
I think IFAJKD makes a good point in one of his tapes where he states that if you end up in a situation where you have to trap/disarm in a stickfight, you probably screwed up somewhere along the way.
Cthulhu
I think IFAJKD makes a good point in one of his tapes where he states that if you end up in a situation where you have to trap/disarm in a stickfight, you probably screwed up somewhere along the way.
Cthulhu
Maybe yes, maybe no 
From your previous postings, I'm sure you're experienced enough to know that 'what if I do this?' questions are pretty pointless in the MA.
I can answer a 'what if' question with a theoretic response, but I can never truly know what will happen if you do such-and-such until you actually do such-and-such to me.
A lot of what we do, particularly intricate stuff like trapping and disarms, are very dependent on 'ideal' situations. A fight, by its very nature, is certainly not an ideal situation. The Vunak interview IFAJKD posted can be used as an example. One can infer from the interview that Vunak found the Jun Fan/Wing Chun-based trapping fairly useless/pointless unless he was fighting somebody who occupied the centerline, e.g., another Jun Fan/Wing Chun fighter...an 'ideal' situation.
Ideally, I would like to stay in largo mano range, where - in response to your proposed scenario - I could simply back up. However, my back could be against something, there could be other opponents behind me, I could trip and bust my a$$, and so and and so forth. With this in mind, I gave my little silly answer
Does this mean that one should not train trapping/disarming/tapi-tapi/etc? Hell no! If you ever do get into some sort of clash or end up in trapping range unexpectedly, then superior knowledge in that range will definitely be in your favor, whether you actually get a disarm/trap, or just mindf**k your opponent long enough to blast your way out.
I would tend to think that if you are actively looking for a trap/disarm, it probably won't happen. You'd be so focused on that goal, the reality of the fight could become lost to you. However, if you've trained them enough, when the situation presents itself, the trap/disarm would probably come automatically.
Cthulhu
rambling on again
From your previous postings, I'm sure you're experienced enough to know that 'what if I do this?' questions are pretty pointless in the MA.
I can answer a 'what if' question with a theoretic response, but I can never truly know what will happen if you do such-and-such until you actually do such-and-such to me.
A lot of what we do, particularly intricate stuff like trapping and disarms, are very dependent on 'ideal' situations. A fight, by its very nature, is certainly not an ideal situation. The Vunak interview IFAJKD posted can be used as an example. One can infer from the interview that Vunak found the Jun Fan/Wing Chun-based trapping fairly useless/pointless unless he was fighting somebody who occupied the centerline, e.g., another Jun Fan/Wing Chun fighter...an 'ideal' situation.
Ideally, I would like to stay in largo mano range, where - in response to your proposed scenario - I could simply back up. However, my back could be against something, there could be other opponents behind me, I could trip and bust my a$$, and so and and so forth. With this in mind, I gave my little silly answer
Does this mean that one should not train trapping/disarming/tapi-tapi/etc? Hell no! If you ever do get into some sort of clash or end up in trapping range unexpectedly, then superior knowledge in that range will definitely be in your favor, whether you actually get a disarm/trap, or just mindf**k your opponent long enough to blast your way out.
I would tend to think that if you are actively looking for a trap/disarm, it probably won't happen. You'd be so focused on that goal, the reality of the fight could become lost to you. However, if you've trained them enough, when the situation presents itself, the trap/disarm would probably come automatically.
Cthulhu
rambling on again
Modern Arnis is at its best in the middle and close quarter range. As a Modern Arnis player thats where you want to be so why backup? This is where tapi-tapi would come into play wouldn't it. Modern arnis is light on footwork when compared to some styles and I think its because once your in your in, until you or opp. is out as in (KO). Its getting into this range (relatively safely) that is the tricky part. This is where tactics and strategy come into play.
Black Grass
Black Grass
I understand the point but as a practical matter if one's opponent is that quick in comparison then I still feel the disarm is unlikely to happen. One might engage in stick grappling and might conceivably end up with a disarm but I would foresee furious punyo (sp?), limb destruction, and live hand techniques with no one person staying still long enough to be trapped and/or disarmed. I would also expect one party to try to retreat and fight from a more comfortable range. If he was that quick getting in, he isn't going to be trapped that easily and he isn't planning on giving up that stick. I would still see a disarm as a theoretical rather than practical solution there.
I fundamentally don't believe that the Professor ever meant to say that in a real Filipino-style stickfighting match between equally skilled opponents that one might try, or accidentally succeed in, disarming the opponent by other than striking the hand/arm. Teaching counters and learning about luring an opponent into a trap is useful for any number of reasons and I think you have laid out part of the argument for it, Mao, including growing in the flow and being ready to take advantage of what comes one's way, but I still see an actual disarm as a low-odds maneuver. I speak as someone who really enjoys practicing the disarms but who has always thought of them as moves to use on one's drunk brother-in-law but not in a dark alley (not that either of those are apt to be stick fights).
I'd be curious if those who spar against partners of roughly equal skill would agree with me on this--that disarms that are taught as such, as opposed to defanging the snake by striking the hand or the chance of a stick falling loose unexpectedly when struck, are an exceedingly rare occurrence.
I would say that Modern Arnis is good at all ranges. The focus that Remy put on the art at the end was short range. When I started in the art most of what I was would taught was Largo Mano. The short range stuff was when the person would catch you off guard.
When I fight in tournaments I snipe at people at long range. This has proved very sucsessful for me. When I have had some one willing to charge me I have the rest as my back up.
Once again it's all in how you train it. It also changes if we are talking about blades.
When I fight in tournaments I snipe at people at long range. This has proved very sucsessful for me. When I have had some one willing to charge me I have the rest as my back up.
Once again it's all in how you train it. It also changes if we are talking about blades.
I know just what you mean, but I don't think I've ever seen a Modern Arnis practitioner other than the Professor who could do it consistently and confidently. He could be the Eye of the Storm, standing so close to a person and controlling that person's stick while still retaining use of his own. This is the balintawak training coming through, I believe, and I don't think it had as a big a presence in Modern Arnis as would have been necessary to have it be transmitted well.
This is correct. Remy was trying to move the art in this direction. I think this is one of the reasons that he hooked me up with GM Buot. I have always talked to him about teaching concepts. I feel that he may have thought with enough of us duing both arts we could work as a collective to take the art to the next level for the people.
Remy lacked a vocabulary that could describe subtle details. With the help of some of his senior students he could possibly bridge that gap.
My memory is also that much of it was largo in the 80s and that the range on which he focused shortened as time went on. I don't know what to make of this--I know he was emphasizing tapi-tapi at the end but he had hardly repudiated the earlier teachings. The title MOTT shows how central he thought tapi-tapi was to the art, but: How did he see it all fitting in? Once again, we ask if anyone has the complete system of Modern Arnis. I know you have worked with others to fill in the big picture, Mr. Hartman. We really needed the Professor to write his own "Tao of Modern Arnis" a la the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" so we'd have his philosophy laid out. Yes, I know...that wasn't his way.
This has been my approach too. I did a fair amount of stick sparring in California with a very fast kung fu practitioner who was also a Modern Arnis black belt--if he got inside he would largely abandon the stick and try to crawl all over me, and this is what he wanted to do as a tactic. I stayed at largo and abanico'd him as much as possible, using the butt end and abanico corto if he broke through. He was too fast to trap.
D
DWright
Guest
Modern Arnis is a great full contact art. I started in Arnis to supplement my police baton training. By the end of my first seminar with Remy I was able to apply several Arnis techniques on a drunk who was resisting arrest. The old fashioned chicken wing done with a cane/police baton will assist an officer in straining a resisting drunk out their own car window.
The beauty of Arnis is that once you learn a technique you then learn to apply it empty handed or with a knife, or with two canes.
Not many Arts use this progression.
The beauty of Arnis is that once you learn a technique you then learn to apply it empty handed or with a knife, or with two canes.
Not many Arts use this progression.
I think if you look at most FMA systems you will see more simulaities than differences. It's how the tools are used and how the systems are taught that make them unique.
