MMA would never work in a real fight.

[TFP]

This one's back again? Really? Okay...






Well, that's rather incorrect. MMA is not a "real life legit martial art that addresses many forms of fighting rolled up neatly into a nice little package", it's a competitive and training format which encourages a broader fighting range than, say, boxing, or Judo. It addresses exactly one form of fighting, which is MMA competitive fighting. And it really isn't that similar to JKD, anymore than krav maga is similar to BJJ.

no, it most certainly is. Just because they test it in the UFC doesn't make it not for SD anymore than say a Judo competition ruins Judo as a SD martial art.
as far as you denying it's similarity to JKD, you again couldn't be any more wrong. Both arts borrow what works from others (Gung fu, western boxing, fencing, wrestling, Judo, etc) discards what doesn't and both arts then let the individual shape the art to themselves. Insanely similar TBH.






Ha, I get that that was a typo, but it just opens up to such a perfect response, I really can't resist....


Your "shirt" answer is complete pants. What do you know of "SD martial arts"? And why would you think that a competition format, designed for a context removed from and alien to self defence would therefore give you something that works better or more than arts/systems designed specifically for such a context?


I know plenty about it. I've train in SD martial arts, trained under multiple instructors who teach law enforcement and military. As much as you hope upon hope to distance MMA from your beloved SD martial arts, the simple truth is that the core of MMA comes from SD martial arts.
infact in the last street altercation I got into I used many facets of my MMA training to defend myself from multiple "bad guys". From using a Greco clinch against a car eventually using a modified Judo/Head and Arm toss which landed him on the hood of the car, as he slide off the car I switched to a Muay Thai clinch landing 2 knees to the chin, spun him around and applied a standing Rear Naked Choke and sat on the hood of the car so no one could get behind me , I had to use it to hide my face in between his shoulder blades as his friends attempted to punch me and his girlfriend tried to claw me with her keys and nails.
I was able to use these different techniques, not because I studied and mastered each art, but because I had learned and modified my Mixed Martial Art training to what actually works and what I can actually apply in real life.








MMA is a competition format, but it's also a training methodology (geared towards success in that competitive format, of course). To that end, it's not really something that allows, or even encourages genuine mixtures of martial arts (remember, the term was coined, not for single athletes who combined a variety of arts in their approach, but for the format which had different arts competing against each other... a mixture of martial arts in the competition), it encourages multiple ranges to be trained. Really, MMA should be called "Multi-Ranged Unarmed Combat Sports", but the initialism just doesn't flow as well... (hmm... MRUCS... nah.

your wrong style vs style is what you're talking about. MMA is what came after. Do you think Judo is a SD Martial art?






Needing to be well rounded for what, though? That's been the main question... needing to be well rounded to handle themselves in a competitive format which engages in multiple ranges against a similarly skilled opponent in an agreed and specified context and contest is one thing, but it really doesn't mean that it proves anything for anything else. Essentially, it showed that, in order to be successful in MMA competition, you needed to be well trained in MMA-style methodology. That was it


well rounded to be able to be as advantageous in your attack or defense in an MMA cage or the street.




I should hope not! The stuff I see in the cage, in actual usage, can be desperately ill-advised... real fights aren't what you've been looking at on you-tube, you know...


nice attempt at a put down, but I actually train, have fought and have put on many of my own MMA promotions as well as work with some of the largest promotions in the world.

MMA is 100% legitimate for the street and SD, to think otherwise is close minded, IMO

 

[K-man]

MMA is 100% legitimate for the street and SD, to think otherwise is close minded, IMO

Even if I were to agree with you to a certain degree, your assertion that anyone disagreeing with you is closed minded? Yeah, right!
:lfao:

 

[TFP]

Even if I were to agree with you to a certain degree, your assertion that anyone disagreeing with you is closed minded? Yeah, right!
:lfao:

Im not saying disagreeing with me is close minded I'm saying not giving MMA a chance as a SD martial art is close minded. I have no problem with different opinions for sure.

 

[TFP]

Yep. Of course, you've hit upon one of the big differences there... you list "get away from a mugger". Where, in MMA training, does it teach you to escape and run? This is part of the limitations of sporting approaches, and what removes such things from being "reality"... training in MMA (or other sporting methods) will encourage, in fact, insist upon engaging the opponent. You don't run away in the cage, you have to stay and fight. And, if you want to win, you have to aggressively engage... even if it doesn't go to a knockout or submission, the judges will score your performance... and, if you aren't aggressive, you don't get points. You may even have them taken. You simply can't win without having the focus being move in and engage. That can mean that, if you rely on MMA training for handling all "real world" encounters, you go in and engage when it's just not a smart, or preferred option. On the same token, MMA training doesn't really deal with "stop someone from harming you" either... for much the same reasons. Defences are there to prevent you losing, not to stop the other guy hurting you, in the end.

i honestly can't tell if you're being serious here!! I'm guessing so!! There is plenty of disengaging in MMA, plenty of staying away and only engaging when you want. One of the best MMA fighters of our time is known for this elusive tactics in the cage, confusing his opponents with elusive movements.

Lol, you act like someone needs to be taught how to "run away"........ Are you serious here? In MMA like any other martial art, if you don't want to engage and you want to flee, you simply do that . Thing is with MMA training it will be just as easy if not more easy to flee if that is what you want to do.

 

[RTKDCMB]

MMA is 100% legitimate for the street and SD, to think otherwise is close minded, IMO

Legitimate, effective and well suited are 3 entirely different things.

 

[TFP]

Legitimate, effective and well suited are 3 entirely different things.

Of course they arn't, especially if you want to deflect away from the fact that MMA is a great art to learn for SD.:boing1:

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, one more time.

no, it most certainly is. Just because they test it in the UFC doesn't make it not for SD anymore than say a Judo competition ruins Judo as a SD martial art.

Read again. I was saying that your description, specifically the comment that MMA "addresses many forms of fighting" was incorrect. It addresses one. That's it. Just one. MMA. Just the one.

And there is nothing about any comment of "testing"... but sure, Judo's context isn't self defence either. That, though, doesn't mean it can't be used in a self defence context... which, if you paid attention, is exactly what I say about MMA.

as far as you denying it's similarity to JKD, you again couldn't be any more wrong. Both arts borrow what works from others (Gung fu, western boxing, fencing, wrestling, Judo, etc) discards what doesn't and both arts then let the individual shape the art to themselves. Insanely similar TBH.

No.

For one thing, you're looking at a superficial similarity, the actual specifics and context, as well as the reasoning behind the approaches, are wildly different. Additionally, the application of JKD's "absorb what is useful, discard what is not" doesn't actually fit MMA's methodology... there, it's "do what gets you a win"... wildly different, mate.

I know plenty about it. I've train in SD martial arts, trained under multiple instructors who teach law enforcement and military. As much as you hope upon hope to distance MMA from your beloved SD martial arts, the simple truth is that the core of MMA comes from SD martial arts.

First off, I don't feel there are any such things as "self defence martial arts"... nothing I've ever seen fits the description, when looked at objectively. Secondly, I don't hope to distance MMA from anything other than things that aren't MMA. But I do have to say, if you've trained in SD-centric systems, either they didn't know what they were teaching, or you didn't pay attention.

infact in the last street altercation I got into I used many facets of my MMA training to defend myself from multiple "bad guys". From using a Greco clinch against a car eventually using a modified Judo/Head and Arm toss which landed him on the hood of the car, as he slide off the car I switched to a Muay Thai clinch landing 2 knees to the chin, spun him around and applied a standing Rear Naked Choke and sat on the hood of the car so no one could get behind me , I had to use it to hide my face in between his shoulder blades as his friends attempted to punch me and his girlfriend tried to claw me with her keys and nails.

Okay... where's the self defence training from MMA coming out? Honestly, what I read here is a lack of awareness, a lack of de-escalation, a lack of escape strategies, a lack of focus on the reality of the situation, and a lack of ability to tactically deal with a group. I also note that it's essentially a one-on-one encounter where you went overboard, and brought his friend and girlfriend into it. You took too long, didn't manage the group, didn't have any self defence aspects, and only are concerned with fighting. To me, that entire story is a fail, from a SD perspective... but it's also what I'd expect from an MMA practitioner (tactically).

I was able to use these different techniques, not because I studied and mastered each art, but because I had learned and modified my Mixed Martial Art training to what actually works and what I can actually apply in real life.

Which is different to any other fighting system how?

your wrong style vs style is what you're talking about. MMA is what came after. Do you think Judo is a SD Martial art?

No, son, I was talking about modern MMA. I mentioned the origin of the term to demonstrate where it was not necessarily the best description of what is currently seen. Read properly, yeah?

Oh, and no. Judo is not a self defence martial art. It's a competitive martial art. It can, of course, be used in a self defence context.... but I have no idea what that has to do with anything I wrote....

well rounded to be able to be as advantageous in your attack or defense in an MMA cage or the street.

Which are two very different things. Cross over? Sure. But that's not the same.

nice attempt at a put down, but I actually train, have fought and have put on many of my own MMA promotions as well as work with some of the largest promotions in the world.

That wasn't a put down, son. It was me saying "sure, I'll wait for you to come back".

MMA is 100% legitimate for the street and SD, to think otherwise is close minded, IMO

Oh boy... again, try reading what was actually written, instead of deciding you know what I'm saying before taking in the words.

Im not saying disagreeing with me is close minded I'm saying not giving MMA a chance as a SD martial art is close minded. I have no problem with different opinions for sure.

How about reality? Any problem with that? Go back to the start of the thread. I have said, repeatedly, that MMA is not designed for self defence. It is designed for a very different context (competition in a cage)... but it can certainly provide physical skills that can be very applicable and usable in self defence. Thinking that's me saying that I don't give MMA a chance is just plain ignoring the reality of what I'm saying.

Additionally, MMA is not trained as a self defence art. Why? Because that would take time away from match preparation, which is the real reason behind MMA. Can it be used for SD? Yes. But saying that that makes it designed for it is to ignore reality.

i honestly can't tell if you're being serious here!! I'm guessing so!! There is plenty of disengaging in MMA, plenty of staying away and only engaging when you want. One of the best MMA fighters of our time is known for this elusive tactics in the cage, confusing his opponents with elusive movements.

There is a huge difference between disengaging due to a stalemate or because the opponent is gaining the upper hand in order to then re-engage, and looking for an opportunity to escape (tactically). If you aren't aware of that, then you have no idea about contextual tactical methodology, and are way out of your depth in this conversation.

Lol, you act like someone needs to be taught how to "run away"........ Are you serious here? In MMA like any other martial art, if you don't want to engage and you want to flee, you simply do that . Thing is with MMA training it will be just as easy if not more easy to flee if that is what you want to do.

Actually, yes, you do need to be taught how to "run away". It's called a tactical retreat, and there are a large number of rules and principles that need to be followed. Armies practice them for a reason.

Thing is with MMA training, you don't train to escape... so you don't. You don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training... I mean, you were up against three people, and still didn't think to escape? Case in point.

Legitimate, effective and well suited are 3 entirely different things.

Yes, they are.

Of course they arn't, especially if you want to deflect away from the fact that MMA is a great art to learn for SD.:boing1:

No, RTKDCMB was correct... they are very different things, and change meaning depending on the context. MMA is an okay approach for combative skills that have some application in self defence... it's not a great art to learn for SD. How can I say that? It's simply not designed for it. At all. It's designed for something rather different. And, unless you can recognise what the difference is, you're not in a position to argue.

 

[TFP]

Chris Parker do you realize the majority of people who train "MMA" do not ever plan on being an MMA Fighter?

 

[Chris Parker]

Firstly, you're not actually correct there... secondly, it's not actually relevant. I'll explain.

First, to why you're not correct. By training in MMA, you can only become an MMA fighter (someone who fights using MMA), so to train MMA and not want to, or plan to, be an MMA fighter is rather bizarre. It'd be like saying you are learning French, but don't want to speak it.... or learn karate without becoming a karateka. Not really possible. Now, of course, you didn't mean that... you meant that not everyone who trains in MMA wants to, or plans on eventually, fighting in the ring competitively (either amateur or professional)... in which case, sure. But to say that that's not part of the reason they started MMA in the first place is to not acknowledge the actual drives, values, and perceptions that went into making the decision to walk into that gym. It's there in every single MMA trainee... if it wasn't, they wouldn't know about MMA in the first place... nor would they have a frame of reference for "success" to work towards (and no, I'm not talking about their personal success in competition if they don't want to compete, I'm talking about what makes them think it leads to success in application... in other words, exactly where your personal framework has come from). You're missing huge amounts of detail on the actual reasons here, from a psychological standpoint.

Now, why isn't it relevant? Because I'm not discussing what the art is offering a potential student, what benefits or requirements a student has, or anything similar. I'm looking (very objectively) at what the reality is. That's it. It really doesn't matter what the trainee wants to get out of MMA, as that doesn't alter what MMA is... wanting to get a healthy meal but being in Pizza Hut or McDonalds doesn't mean that whatever you order will automatically become healthy.

 

[SENC-33]

You train with a mindset......or at least you should. MMA instills the mindset of a sport fighter not self defense. I haven't read the entire thread but I thought I saw Bas mentioned in a post and he is a great example of a guy who has delved into both worlds. With that being said I can guarantee you that were he put in a dangerous situation he wouldn't be carrying the mindset of an MMA fighter into a confrontation.

Obviously MMA training can teach you to fight but in my opinion it instills a less than stellar approach to defending yourself.

 

[TFP]

Okay, one more time.


Read again. I was saying that your description, specifically the comment that MMA "addresses many forms of fighting" was incorrect. It addresses one. That's it. Just one. MMA. Just the one.

You are simple wrong. Many MMA schools offer different arts on different nights and then fuse them on other nights. I believe you just have little to no experience with the MMA community and thus are making assumptions.


And there is nothing about any comment of "testing"... but sure, Judo's context isn't self defence either. That, though, doesn't mean it can't be used in a self defence context... which, if you paid attention, is exactly what I say about MMA

so Judo isn't a self defense martial art? Hmmm....... Lol, didn't the founder of Judo as we know it today, seek it out for SD reasons? Any art that is designed to help you defend yourself and family from harm is a SD martial art.


No.


For one thing, you're looking at a superficial similarity, the actual specifics and context, as well as the reasoning behind the approaches, are wildly different. Additionally, the application of JKD's "absorb what is useful, discard what is not" doesn't actually fit MMA's methodology... there, it's "do what gets you a win"... wildly different, mate.

you honestly don't have any idea about actual MMA training do you? You can't get past the UFC and the contests involved there and the rules.


First off, I don't feel there are any such things as "self defence martial arts"... nothing I've ever seen fits the description, when looked at objectively. Secondly, I don't hope to distance MMA from anything other than things that aren't MMA. But I do have to say, if you've trained in SD-centric systems, either they didn't know what they were teaching, or you didn't pay attention.

so know there are no martial arts that serve the practitioner for SD? Your last sentence there, did you come to that conclusion from the story I described?


Okay... where's the self defence training from MMA coming out? Honestly, what I read here is a lack of awareness, a lack of de-escalation, a lack of escape strategies, a lack of focus on the reality of the situation, and a lack of ability to tactically deal with a group. I also note that it's essentially a one-on-one encounter where you went overboard, and brought his friend and girlfriend into it. You took too long, didn't manage the group, didn't have any self defence aspects, and only are concerned with fighting. To me, that entire story is a fail, from a SD perspective... but it's also what I'd expect from an MMA practitioner (tactically).

all fair complaints, but the context of what I was explaining was to show how mixed martial arts helped me defend myself. As in what different arts blended to save me during that encounter. I didn't go into detail about the whole situation from start to finish, how it was 3 on about 5 (later more from each side). How we attempted to de-escalate the situation, how we avoided and fled 2 different times etc.


Which is different to any other fighting system how?

well a lot of arts show you one way and not a lot of arts teach you different blended techniques from numerous arts.




Oh, and no. Judo is not a self defence martial art. It's a competitive martial art. It can, of course, be used in a self defence context.... but I have no idea what that has to do with anything I wrote......

I think ALOT of people will disagree with you here.




That wasn't a put down, son. It was me saying "sure, I'll wait for you to come back".

hmm sure seemed to me you were suggesting my knowledge comes from watching YouTube and not actual experience






I have said, repeatedly, that MMA can certainly provide physical skills that can be very applicable and usable in self defence.

well good! Welcome aboard!


Additionally, MMA is not trained as a self defence art. Why? Because that would take time away from match preparation, which is the real reason behind MMA. Can it be used for SD? Yes. But saying that that makes it designed for it is to ignore reality.


lol, again most who train MMA are not preparing for a match and many schools train self defense specific training. But you wouldn't know that because you don't have much MMA experience.


There is a huge difference between disengaging due to a stalemate or because the opponent is gaining the upper hand in order to then re-engage, and looking for an opportunity to escape (tactically). If you aren't aware of that, then you have no idea about contextual tactical methodology, and are way out of your depth in this conversation.


not re-engaging because of fear or danger has to be taught how to be done. There is some magical way not fight and to run/escape if you want to. Of course you can learn to be more aware, etc. but don't act like fleeing is something an MMA practitioner won't be able to do. You were suggesting an MMA practitioner wouldn't know how to get away because all they are taught to do is attack. That's absurd and shows your extremely limited knowledge in the art.


Actually, yes, you do need to be taught how to "run away". It's called a tactical retreat, and there are a large number of rules and principles that need to be followed. Armies practice them for a reason.

armies!? Are you being serious!??? You think MMA practitioners only know how to attack, re-engage and under a certain set of rules.... toy are absolutely wrong....


Thing is with MMA training, you don't train to escape... so you don't. You don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training... I mean, you were up against three people, and still didn't think to escape? Case in point.


you're wrong and you also don't know the whole story. Making a conclusion off of what I wrote about a small context of the night, I know not your fault because I didn't give the whole story, was just showing a mix blend of fighting worked for me in defending myself.


.

Its interesting to see you talk about MMA as if you know the art. What experience do you have with it?

 

[TFP]

Firstly, you're not actually correct there... secondly, it's not actually relevant. I'll explain.

First, to why you're not correct. By training in MMA, you can only become an MMA fighter (someone who fights using MMA), so to train MMA and not want to, or plan to, be an MMA fighter is rather bizarre. It'd be like saying you are learning French, but don't want to speak it.... or learn karate without becoming a karateka. Not really possible. Now, of course, you didn't mean that... you meant that not everyone who trains in MMA wants to, or plans on eventually, fighting in the ring competitively (either amateur or professional)... in which case, sure. But to say that that's not part of the reason they started MMA in the first place is to not acknowledge the actual drives, values, and perceptions that went into making the decision to walk into that gym. It's there in every single MMA trainee... if it wasn't, they wouldn't know about MMA in the first place... nor would they have a frame of reference for "success" to work towards (and no, I'm not talking about their personal success in competition if they don't want to compete, I'm talking about what makes them think it leads to success in application... in other words, exactly where your personal framework has come from). You're missing huge amounts of detail on the actual reasons here, from a psychological standpoint.

Now, why isn't it relevant? Because I'm not discussing what the art is offering a potential student, what benefits or requirements a student has, or anything similar. I'm looking (very objectively) at what the reality is. That's it. It really doesn't matter what the trainee wants to get out of MMA, as that doesn't alter what MMA is... wanting to get a healthy meal but being in Pizza Hut or McDonalds doesn't mean that whatever you order will automatically become healthy.

You just continue to show you don't know what you're talking about! Plenty (most) people who train MMA do not have a goal or desire to fight an MMA match. It's just the facts buddy! Just like a lot of people in Judo/Karate/BJJ/etc are not looking to compete. You like to circle talk, it's funny.

 

[TFP]

You train with a mindset......or at least you should. MMA instills the mindset of a sport fighter not self defense. I haven't read the entire thread but I thought I saw Bas mentioned in a post and he is a great example of a guy who has delved into both worlds. With that being said I can guarantee you that were he put in a dangerous situation he wouldn't be carrying the mindset of an MMA fighter into a confrontation.

Obviously MMA training can teach you to fight but in my opinion it instills a less than stellar approach to defending yourself.

Less than stellar in what sense? being on the ground? Not training to poke an eye out? Not training in awareness? Not training with weapons?

what art would you suggest for SD?

 

[SENC-33]

Less than stellar in what sense? being on the ground? Not training to poke an eye out? Not training in awareness? Not training with weapons?

what art would you suggest for SD?

I have worked out in many "MMA" establishments. They don't teach SELF DEFENSE period. Can you train in an MMA establishment and defend yourself? Sure you can.....but you had best throw reality into the equation at some point in your training.

I don't think there is a best SD art which is why I don't practice one. I pull from every source and only techniques that have been proven and pressure tested through combat, law enforcement, security situations, etc. make it into my training regiment. Some people mistake what I do with MMA because it is indeed a "mix" of many things but there is a huge difference in MMA and RBSD. In RBSD I don't spend very much time training to "trade punches and kicks". My time is spent training to strike first, strike hard and finish the job. I'm not going to hug my attacker or hold his hand or congratulate him after an altercation so I don't train with that mindset

 

[TFP]

I have worked out in many "MMA" establishments. They don't teach SELF DEFENSE period. Can you train in an MMA establishment and defend yourself? Sure you can.....but you had best throw reality into the equation at some point in your training.

I don't think there is a best SD art which is why I don't practice one. I pull from every source and only techniques that have been proven and pressure tested through combat, law enforcement, security situations, etc. make it into my training regiment. Some people mistake what I do with MMA because it is indeed a "mix" of many things but there is a huge difference in MMA and RBSD. In RBSD I don't spend very much time training to "trade punches and kicks". My time is spent training to strike first, strike hard and finish the job. I'm not going to hug my attacker or hold his hand or congratulate him after an altercation so I don't train with that mindset

Thanks for the response what is RBSD? I would like to look into it.


oh and just because you use CAPS and say "period" no give backs doesn't make it so. I would assume that each MMA gym is different in its take on SD and how much they put into it if anything. I know most the gyms I have trained at have addressed SD but of course that doesn't mean all do.

 

[SENC-33]

Thanks for the response what is RBSD? I would like to look into it.


oh and just because you use CAPS and say "period" no give backs doesn't make it so. I would assume that each MMA gym is different in its take on SD and how much they put into it if anything. I know most the gyms I have trained at have addressed SD but of course that doesn't mean all do.

Reality Based Self Defense (RBSD)......CAPS and Periods aside I am telling you what I have observed in regards to establishments who market MMA

 

[Steve]

Are "real fight" and "self defense" synonyms? Would a "self defense" art work in a real fight?

 

[K-man]

Are "real fight" and "self defense" synonyms?

No.

Would a "self defense" art work in a real fight?

Maybe. As usual, it all depends.

:asian:

 

[Steve]

Are "real fight" and "self defense" synonyms?

No.

Would a "self defense" art work in a real fight?

Maybe. As usual, it all depends.:asian:

So then, if the question is, "Would MMA work in a real fight?" is the answer, 'Sometimes?"

And wouldn't that be the same answer for any style of martial art?

 

[KydeX]

So then, if the question is, "Would MMA work in a real fight?" is the answer, 'Sometimes?"

And wouldn't that be the same answer for any style of martial art?

Probably