MMA would never work in a real fight.

[Dirty Dog]

So then, if the question is, "Would MMA work in a real fight?" is the answer, 'Sometimes?"

And wouldn't that be the same answer for any style of martial art?

Sometimes.

Unless the person has mastered Dim Mak. Or Sinanju.

 

[TFP]

Apparently sometimes MMA is a life saver.....
http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...-from-home-invasion-may-face-criminal-charges

 

[K-man]

So then, if the question is, "Would MMA work in a real fight?" is the answer, 'Sometimes?"

And wouldn't that be the same answer for any style of martial art?

That's been my arguement all along. My only comment is that the arts that I train are specifically targeted at finishing a fight quickly by any means and getting away. I would argue that some other arts are primarily aimed at competition and any SD component is a bonus. That said, I still think some MAs are more effective than others, but that may be from the perspective that I don't fully understand those arts, so I am not really in a position to judge. I know this possibly won't sit well with Chris but my feeling is that most martial arts should give you the ability to defend yourself on the street against an untrained opponent.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Sometimes.

Unless the person has mastered Dim Mak. Or Sinanju.

That's a bit unfair. Sinanju is a fictitious MA. Dim Mak (Chinese) or Kyusho (Japanese) is not a martial art but a vital component of martial art training. Many of the Dim Mak points are utilised by all other Martial Arts including the sport oriented arts. As for the fabled 'death touch'. That is easily explained by undiagnosed and probably untreatable injuries like a ruptured kidney or spleen, subdural haematoma, etc.

In Goju it is hard to find people who actually teach Kyusho as even today it is often regarded as something that is not taught to Gejin. I had a very interesting discussion with Hokama Sensei in Okinawa a few years back. At one stage he held my little toe in his so called 'snake grip' and I was totally incapacitated, much to the undisguised amusement of my so called friends who witnessed the event. Fortunately that video footage never made it to YouTube. However his video has a section on Kyusho. Unfortunately for me it is in Japanese overdubbed but enough to get the picture that the techniques demonstrated in kata are targeting those points. Also you have the points detailed in the Bubishi, the so called Bible of karate.

I believe if you are serious about reality based martial art you should have a reasonable understanding of Kyusho. Without that understanding you have absolutely no chance of explaining kata and bunkai to your students.

Here is a small example of Hokama Sensei teaching Kyusho.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NT-WEk8QQEg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=NT-WEk8QQEg
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Apparently sometimes MMA is a life saver.....
http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...-from-home-invasion-may-face-criminal-charges

I was about to report that from my local news.

The topic is flawed. It's not about the art and all about the fighter. How many people, martial artists included would have **** their pants in that situation...something to think about!

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's a bit unfair. Sinanju is a fictitious MA. Dim Mak (Chinese) or Kyusho (Japanese) is not a martial art but a vital component of martial art training. Many of the Dim Mak points are utilised by all other Martial Arts including the sport oriented arts. As for the fabled 'death touch'. That is easily explained by undiagnosed and probably untreatable injuries like a ruptured kidney or spleen, subdural haematoma, etc.

In Goju it is hard to find people who actually teach Kyusho as even today it is often regarded as something that is not taught to Gejin. I had a very interesting discussion with Hokama Sensei in Okinawa a few years back. At one stage he held my little toe in his so called 'snake grip' and I was totally incapacitated, much to the undisguised amusement of my so called friends who witnessed the event. Fortunately that video footage never made it to YouTube. However his video has a section on Kyusho. Unfortunately for me it is in Japanese overdubbed but enough to get the picture that the techniques demonstrated in kata are targeting those points. Also you have the points detailed in the Bubishi, the so called Bible of karate.

I believe if you are serious about reality based martial art you should have a reasonable understanding of Kyusho. Without that understanding you have absolutely no chance of explaining kata and bunkai to your students.

Here is a small example of Hokama Sensei teaching Kyusho.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NT-WEk8QQEg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=NT-WEk8QQEg
:asian:

Dude, if my tongue had been any further in my cheek, I'd be suturing the hole right now. Relax a bit.

 

[Chris Parker]

You are simple wrong. Many MMA schools offer different arts on different nights and then fuse them on other nights. I believe you just have little to no experience with the MMA community and thus are making assumptions.

You're missing what you're being told. MMA trains to deal with one form of fighting... MMA competition. Those that train in different arts on different nights aren't training MMA itself (despite the name used), although an MMA gym will commonly have different nights dedicated to different aspects (which can be labelled as the different arts it's drawn from). In other words, you're wrong, and I'll deal with the experience thing in a bit. But you're out of your depth here.

so Judo isn't a self defense martial art? Hmmm....... Lol, didn't the founder of Judo as we know it today, seek it out for SD reasons? Any art that is designed to help you defend yourself and family from harm is a SD martial art.

What are you talking about? The founder of Judo (Kano Jigoro) sought out Judo for SD reasons? Huh? He didn't "seek out" Judo, he created it. He sought out Jujutsu (classical), not for self defence specifically, but for a way to prevail over larger persons (you're going to be confused by that, and think it's the same thing... it's not). He was actually discouraged from looking at the older systems, as his father considered them and their methods "out of date" even then for self defence methods.

You might want to look a bit further into the history of Japanese arts if you're going to try arguing them with me, mate.

you honestly don't have any idea about actual MMA training do you? You can't get past the UFC and the contests involved there and the rules.

Er... there was no mention of the UFC or rules there. There was, however, knowledge of what JKD and MMA are, independent of each other. Your take on JKD was, frankly, wrong. And that was what I pointed out. Oh, and for the record, so's Dana's take on Bruce and JKD, before you bring his comments up.

so know there are no martial arts that serve the practitioner for SD? Your last sentence there, did you come to that conclusion from the story I described?

No martial arts that can serve the practitioner for self defence? No, that's kinda the opposite of what I've said explicitly a number of times... what I've said is that there aren't any that are designed for modern self defence needs and situations. Bit of a difference there. Oh, and the last sentence comes from everything you've posted, not the story. That showed something else.

all fair complaints, but the context of what I was explaining was to show how mixed martial arts helped me defend myself. As in what different arts blended to save me during that encounter. I didn't go into detail about the whole situation from start to finish, how it was 3 on about 5 (later more from each side). How we attempted to de-escalate the situation, how we avoided and fled 2 different times etc.

Then you missed in your aim. There are single arts that have exactly the same methods, nothing to do with MMA at all, nor any evidence that MMA is better, or even suited in it's design. All it showed was that you used a couple of techniques you can identify from MMA in a fight. But tell me, where in MMA training do you train de-escalation? What do you know about it? Do you use aggressive or passive de-escalation? Verbal, physical?

well a lot of arts show you one way and not a lot of arts teach you different blended techniques from numerous arts.

Oh dear lord... there's a reason, you know....

I think ALOT of people will disagree with you here.

Really? How so? You think that people (Judoka, I'm not that interested in the opinions of people who don't know the art) will disagree that it's a competitive system that can be used in self defence? Seriously?

Again, you might want to get some more education before you keep arguing with me.

hmm sure seemed to me you were suggesting my knowledge comes from watching YouTube and not actual experience

That was you reading into it, then.

well good! Welcome aboard!

Seriously? That's been my opinion and comment from the damn beginning, son. Go back and read it.

lol, again most who train MMA are not preparing for a match and many schools train self defense specific training. But you wouldn't know that because you don't have much MMA experience.

Again, I'll deal with the "experience" question in a bit... but mate, no. MMA is a training methodology specifically for match competition. That's it. There is nothing else to it. I've seen attempts at MMA Self Defence, and frankly, they're all deeply lacking (some knife defence that pretty much ensured the "defender" would be stabbed repeatedly)... it's not a self defence system, and shouldn't pretend to be.

not re-engaging because of fear or danger has to be taught how to be done. There is some magical way not fight and to run/escape if you want to. Of course you can learn to be more aware, etc. but don't act like fleeing is something an MMA practitioner won't be able to do. You were suggesting an MMA practitioner wouldn't know how to get away because all they are taught to do is attack. That's absurd and shows your extremely limited knowledge in the art.

Oh deal lord... Son, you're simply out of your depth here. You are showing no understanding of the effects of training specific tactical responses, the creation of neural pathways, the power of such training, and more. Additionally, escape methods absolutely do need to be trained as a tactical response... there are good ways to do it, and very bad ways to do it. And, if you don't train it (specifically), you're simply not likely to even know the good methods, let alone use them.

armies!? Are you being serious!??? You think MMA practitioners only know how to attack, re-engage and under a certain set of rules.... toy are absolutely wrong....

No, mate, I'm saying they only learn application in a particular context and environment, which is designed to encourage attack and re-engangement, and punish/discourage escape or fleeing.

And, one more time, yes, I'm serious about armies... your lack of grasp on tactical application and the reasons for training.

you're wrong and you also don't know the whole story. Making a conclusion off of what I wrote about a small context of the night, I know not your fault because I didn't give the whole story, was just showing a mix blend of fighting worked for me in defending myself.

Your story failed.

Its interesting to see you talk about MMA as if you know the art. What experience do you have with it?

Okay, the experience question.... I have been following the development of MMA since the first UFC. I have attended some dozen or so MMA gyms. At one of my old teaching locations there was an MMA class directly before mine... which I would often watch and observe. I have a number of friends and acquaintances who are, or have been, training in MMA. And I've trained in MMA gyms (for short times), as well as training in BJJ specifically, and dabbling in Kickboxing and boxing. I have had long conversations with others (training in MMA) for a number of years. All told, I've been involved in the MMA world, directly and indirectly, for some 20 years now.

In other words, my MMA experience and exposure is significantly higher and more indepth than your exposure to Traditional Martial Arts and actual self defence training.

You just continue to show you don't know what you're talking about! Plenty (most) people who train MMA do not have a goal or desire to fight an MMA match. It's just the facts buddy! Just like a lot of people in Judo/Karate/BJJ/etc are not looking to compete. You like to circle talk, it's funny.

"Circle talk"? I answered your questions pretty succinctly. It seems you didn't follow what I was saying, though. I didn't say they had a desire to fight an MMA match (but seriously, you need to choose your examples a little better... for the record...), I said that there was a part of all of them that saw themselves in that role. It's necessary, honestly. Without it, there would be no way of relating to what they would be looking for, and no drive to attend the gym in the first place.

I'm talking about psychological drives, both conscious and unconscious. Sorry if that leaves you behind a bit.

Less than stellar in what sense? being on the ground? Not training to poke an eye out? Not training in awareness? Not training with weapons?

Less than stellar in regards to tactical approach, strategic principle, environment, aims, technical preferences, and so on.

what art would you suggest for SD?

I wouldn't suggest an art. I'd suggest RBSD approaches, which can be coupled with many arts. Hell, if I wanted to, I could take MMA and make it self defence... but it won't be MMA anymore, for the record.

Thanks for the response what is RBSD? I would like to look into it.

That says a lot....

Look to Geoff Thompson, Richard Dmitri, Deane Lawler, Michael Janich (for weapons approaches), Lee Morrison, Jim Wagner, Tony Blauer, and more.... but your first stop really should be Geoff.

oh and just because you use CAPS and say "period" no give backs doesn't make it so. I would assume that each MMA gym is different in its take on SD and how much they put into it if anything. I know most the gyms I have trained at have addressed SD but of course that doesn't mean all do.

MMA gyms don't tend to deal in SD, as, as I said, it takes away from the MMA.

Are "real fight" and "self defense" synonyms?

Nope.

Would a "self defense" art work in a real fight?

Maybe. But more importantly, it could avoid it in the first place... and not necessarily in the way many will think of....

So then, if the question is, "Would MMA work in a real fight?" is the answer, 'Sometimes?"

And wouldn't that be the same answer for any style of martial art?

Not completely any style, no... but to the initial question ("Would MMA work in a real fight?"), frankly, the answer can be almost assuredly yes, if all you're asking is "do the techniques work against people in a fight?"... and, by that reasoning, many martial systems would also fall under the same answer to varying degrees... but, if you're asking if it'd work based on it's tactical approach, the answer becomes "it depends"... and we get into the initial question of what the tactical approach is, and it starts to become apparent that aspects of an MMA tactical approach can be inflammatory to a situation, or downright dangerous. As a result, it's not an optimal choice, despite technical methods "working".

Apparently sometimes MMA is a life saver.....
http://m.bleacherreport.com/article...-from-home-invasion-may-face-criminal-charges

Yeah, read that... honestly, it raises a lot more questions rather than providing any form of evidence... how did one guy die? What kind of injuries to the second guy? A "sharp wooden shank"? And what the hell happened in this guys life to have four gang members turn up to attack him and his family?

... A lot more questions...

Oh, and I'd hardly say that it shows MMA as a "life saver"... it shows one example of one person who fought against a group who happened to be an MMA competitor. The problem with stories like this is there's no control group... you can't then try it again with someone trained in karate, someone trained in Wing Chun, and someone with no training....

That's been my arguement all along. My only comment is that the arts that I train are specifically targeted at finishing a fight quickly by any means and getting away. I would argue that some other arts are primarily aimed at competition and any SD component is a bonus. That said, I still think some MAs are more effective than others, but that may be from the perspective that I don't fully understand those arts, so I am not really in a position to judge. I know this possibly won't sit well with Chris but my feeling is that most martial arts should give you the ability to defend yourself on the street against an untrained opponent.
:asian:

Depends on the art, my friend.... depends on the art.... most actual traditional ones, not so much....

 

[K-man]

Depends on the art, my friend.... depends on the art.... most actual traditional ones, not so much....

How did I know that was coming?

 

[TFP]

So to summarize, although not a traditional SD martial art, MMA does have moves that will help you in a self defense fight. It may lack in deescalation and escape techniques but makes up in viable, proven fighting methods.:hammer:

 

[RTKDCMB]

So to summarize, although not a traditional SD martial art, MMA does have moves that will help you in a self defense fight.

If you replace the word "will" with "can" then there is no dispute with that statement.

It may lack in deescalation and escape techniques but makes up in viable, proven fighting methods.:hammer:

Proven depends upon to whose satisfaction it is proven to. it is a lot more 'proven' to work in the cage in competition than it is in real life self defence.

 

[Chris Parker]

How did I know that was coming?

Lucky guess...?

So to summarize, although not a traditional SD martial art, MMA does have moves that will help you in a self defense fight.

Well, kinda, but the point was more that that was completely besides the point, and that the physical techniques found in MMA aren't really any different to those found in myriad other places (in fact, those found in MMA are somewhat "nicer", in ways, than those seen in other locales...). I'll say this again: the "moves" (techniques etc) are not the important thing, nor are they what "work". Oh, and a fight isn't self defence. So it's really a case of "yes, but that's hardly unique, nor really important, and certainly doesn't set MMA apart from anything else", or "no, because you're looking at the wrong thing in the wrong context". Your choice.

It may lack in deescalation and escape techniques but makes up in viable, proven fighting methods.:hammer:

In other words, it lacks any actual consideration of self defence, and is only concerned with fighting. Which is what we've been saying.

 

[Steve]

In other words, it lacks any actual consideration of self defence, and is only concerned with fighting. Which is what we've been saying.

So, then, the answer to the OP is yes, MMA does work in an actual fight. Whew, I'm sure glad we hammered that one out in only 192 posts!

 

[MJS]

I was about to report that from my local news.View attachment 18510

The topic is flawed. It's not about the art and all about the fighter. How many people, martial artists included would have **** their pants in that situation...something to think about!

I would say that many probably would **** their pants! As for the article...I think its crazy that the guy would face charges. I'm sorry, but someone breaks into your home, uninvited, has weapons, well, screw that...they get what they deserve! My life and the life of my wife, is #1 over the life of some **** bag, whos mommy and daddy are going to claim was such a fine, upstanding citizen! **** that! If he was so upstanding, he'd have been in bed, resting so he can go to work in the AM, not breaking into my home!

 

[MJS]

So then, if the question is, "Would MMA work in a real fight?" is the answer, 'Sometimes?"

And wouldn't that be the same answer for any style of martial art?

IMHO, anything has the potential to work. I'd say it's more how the person trains, rather than the art itself. Personally, I might be more inclined to have a MMA fighter have my back in a fight, rather than some of the people from various other arts that I've trained. But like everything, it's really situation depending. It's like a gun....it's a great weapon, but IMO, there are some situations it shouldn't be used for.

 

[MJS]

That's been my arguement all along. My only comment is that the arts that I train are specifically targeted at finishing a fight quickly by any means and getting away. I would argue that some other arts are primarily aimed at competition and any SD component is a bonus. That said, I still think some MAs are more effective than others, but that may be from the perspective that I don't fully understand those arts, so I am not really in a position to judge.

Yes. That's my goal as well. In fact, in that near 100 page thread, I made that very comment, in response to grappling. Why intentionally go down, when the first thing you should do, is try to get the hell away.

I know this possibly won't sit well with Chris but my feeling is that most martial arts should give you the ability to defend yourself on the street against an untrained opponent.
:asian:

My feelings as well.

 

[Steve]

IMHO, anything has the potential to work. I'd say it's more how the person trains, rather than the art itself. Personally, I might be more inclined to have a MMA fighter have my back in a fight, rather than some of the people from various other arts that I've trained. But like everything, it's really situation depending. It's like a gun....it's a great weapon, but IMO, there are some situations it shouldn't be used for.

An MMA fighter in a fight is great. But an MMA fighter who is a giant D-bag would dramatically increase your likelihood of getting into a fight. For fighting, I'll take the competent MMA'ists.

For self defense, I've said before that the ideal combination for me is some kind of reasonable training (whether it's MMA or something else), common sense, courtesy, physical fitness, situational awareness, and sobriety. And of those, the martial arts training is the least important.

 

[TFP]

Lucky guess...?



Well, kinda, but the point was more that that was completely besides the point, and that the physical techniques found in MMA aren't really any different to those found in myriad other places (in fact, those found in MMA are somewhat "nicer", in ways, than those seen in other locales...). I'll say this again: the "moves" (techniques etc) are not the important thing, nor are they what "work". Oh, and a fight isn't self defence. So it's really a case of "yes, but that's hardly unique, nor really important, and certainly doesn't set MMA apart from anything else", or "no, because you're looking at the wrong thing in the wrong context". Your choice.
see I just don't agree with at all that the moves are not important nor are they what "work"..... Infact I don't even know what that means. I do think having real fight experience is important for sure, I've stated a couple times that I think an average BJJ Blue Belt would have issues with an athletic, tough street fighter.

In other words, it lacks any actual consideration of self defence, and is only concerned with fighting. Which is what we've been saying.
well when I speak of Self Defense I'm talking about being able to defend yourself against an attacker. moves that will help you defend yourself. You are maybe talking about escape and deescalation, etc. while it have been talking about actual contact, when the attack or fight is going to happen.

You yourself have stated there are no SD martial arts for today's world, so why not take the best fighting art out there? MMA! And work from there.

:wink2:

 

[TFP]

IMHO, anything has the potential to work. I'd say it's more how the person trains, rather than the art itself. Personally, I might be more inclined to have a MMA fighter have my back in a fight, rather than some of the people from various other arts that I've trained. But like everything, it's really situation depending. It's like a gun....it's a great weapon, but IMO, there are some situations it shouldn't be used for.

Why would you lean toward the MMA fighter as having your back. And I agree somewhat that it depends on how the person trains, but overwhelmingly MMA'ist train hard and go live or as close to it as they can within reason and this is what's important.

now if your training "hard" in an art that is outdated, that's moves simple do not relate to real world self defense (FIGHTING, CONTACT, ETC) the. It doesn't matter how hard you train because it just doesn't work as well as other things do.

 

[TFP]

I was about to report that from my local news.View attachment 18510

The topic is flawed. It's not about the art and all about the fighter. How many people, martial artists included would have **** their pants in that situation...something to think about!

Could be, but MMA is trained at much more intense pace than many other martial arts and there is a lot more hard sparring, cardio, toughness. Etc.

 

[MJS]

Why would you lean toward the MMA fighter as having your back. And I agree somewhat that it depends on how the person trains, but overwhelmingly MMA'ist train hard and go live or as close to it as they can within reason and this is what's important.

Umm...you realize you just answered your own question, right? Your post implies that you misunderstood or didn't read correctly, as you seem to be assuming that I said something to the contrary.

now if your training "hard" in an art that is outdated, that's moves simple do not relate to real world self defense (FIGHTING, CONTACT, ETC) the. It doesn't matter how hard you train because it just doesn't work as well as other things do.

And this is why I've said many times on this forum, that *I* personally, like to keep up with the times. I'm not against training a bo staff, for tradition sake, but I also like to make sure that what I'm doing is current.