MMA would never work in a real fight.

[James Kovacich]

Could be, but MMA is trained at much more intense pace than many other martial arts and there is a lot more hard sparring, cardio, toughness. Etc.

I agree that MMA fighters train with extreme intensity while others think they do also but my point I was making is that all arts, styles, methodsetc have both good and bad practitioners and can win or lose.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[K-man]

Now if your training "hard" in an art that is outdated, that's moves simple do not relate to real world self defense (FIGHTING, CONTACT, ETC) the. It doesn't matter how hard you train because it just doesn't work as well as other things do.

That is absolutely wrong. You are taking Chris' point that MA is not for Self Defence to mean TMAs don't work. Chris is coming from a different point of view and he trains in very different arts. Krav is every bit as effective as MMA. Like MMA it combines a lot of techniques from other MAs. Absolutely no difference except Krav like every other TMA doesn't have this obsession of going to the ground which is the product of MMA's purpose which is a sport. MMA has taken a lot of those outdated techniques to use in a sporting environment. We train hard in a non sporting environment using the same techniques and more with the aim of controlling or destroying someone who threatens or attacks us.

An individual TMA such as Goju karate contains everything within Krav with the exception of the BJJ ground component. Even then Goju has many techniques for taking your opponent to the ground, just not to engage in grappling on the ground. You want to fight on the ground, great. Many of us don't want to be tied up rolling around on the ground. The ground is not the place we want to be.

Your comment is disrespectful of all of us who train anything but MMA.

 

[TFP]

Umm...you realize you just answered your own question, right? Your post implies that you misunderstood or didn't read correctly, as you seem to be assuming that I said something to the contrary.



And this is why I've said many times on this forum, that *I* personally, like to keep up with the times. I'm not against training a bo staff, for tradition sake, but I also like to make sure that what I'm doing is current.

It was a legit question. I was interested in your take on it, then as I thought about it i typed out what I thought....... Which could be different from what you think.

 

[TFP]

That is absolutely wrong. You are taking Chris' point that MA is not for Self Defence to mean TMAs don't work. Chris is coming from a different point of view and he trains in very different arts. Krav is every bit as effective as MMA. Like MMA it combines a lot of techniques from other MAs. Absolutely no difference except Krav like every other TMA doesn't have this obsession of going to the ground which is the product of MMA's purpose which is a sport. MMA has taken a lot of those outdated techniques to use in a sporting environment. We train hard in a non sporting environment using the same techniques and more with the aim of controlling or destroying someone who threatens or attacks us.

An individual TMA such as Goju karate contains everything within Krav with the exception of the BJJ ground component. Even then Goju has many techniques for taking your opponent to the ground, just not to engage in grappling on the ground. You want to fight on the ground, great. Many of us don't want to be tied up rolling around on the ground. The ground is not the place we want to be.

Your comment is disrespectful of all of us who train anything but MMA.

Im not sure why you would be offended by someone saying for a street fight it doesn't matter how hard you train if the art you train isn't realistic for SD or fighting. I didn't mention "all TMA's or even Krav". I wasn't putting down TMA's in




Sent from my iPhonegeneral. The context I was addressing was the technique isn't important if you're training hard in regards to fight.

Thee are many great reasons to train all martial arts I'm sure, but in this context if the techniques of the art don't work well in an actual fight, it doesn't matter how hard you train them.

I have delt delt with plenty of "MMA" fighters and gyms that trained there asses off to fight on my MMA shows and they get there asses handed to them because they are not training what works or training under a guy who doesn't know his stuff, doesn't mean I'm "disrespecting" MMA. Just means hard work isn't going to trump training techniques and arts that actually work.

Its funny, just because I'm an advocate for MMA & BJJ doesn't mean I don't like and respect all arts .

 

[TFP]

I agree that MMA fighters train with extreme intensity while others think they do also but my point I was making is that all arts, styles, methodsetc have both good and bad practitioners and can win or lose.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

Gotcha, I agree!

 

[RTKDCMB]

The context I was addressing was the technique isn't important if you're training hard in regards to fight.

So technique is not important?

Thee are many great reasons to train all martial arts I'm sure, but in this context if the techniques of the art don't work well in an actual fight, it doesn't matter how hard you train them.

So technique is important?

Its funny, just because I'm an advocate for MMA & BJJ doesn't mean I don't like and respect all arts .

Based on some of your previous posts it is understandable that some people will jump to that conclusion.


Technique is always important, if you have horrible technique then the technique you use will be ineffective and won't very well work no matter how hard you train.

 

[TFP]

So technique is not important?

it can't be this hard to communicate with you guys!! Some else said that, that's the thing I was arguing against.
So technique is important?
really?



Based on some of your previous posts it is understandable that some people will jump to that conclusion.

yeah I can understand this.

Technique is always important, if you have horrible technique then the technique you use will be ineffective and won't very well work no matter how hard you train.

true-

:lfao:

 

[K-man]

Good grief! 207 posts and we have finally agreed that technique is important. :idunno:

 

[Chris Parker]

So, then, the answer to the OP is yes, MMA does work in an actual fight. Whew, I'm sure glad we hammered that one out in only 192 posts!

No, actually. The answer is "it might"... but there are also enough gaps to mean there can't be a straight yes/no answer. It provides a particular fighting skill, geared towards a particular form of fighting, but that's about as clear as you can be, frankly.

see I just don't agree with at all that the moves are not important nor are they what "work"..... Infact I don't even know what that means.

Yeah, I get that you don't follow what I'm saying... I'll see if I can describe it better for you. Firstly, the idea of techniques not being important... provided they're relatively solid/mechanically sound (you're not trying to block a sword with your forearm, for example... and yes, that's a real example....), then there really isn't much of importance to them. Whether you apply a full RNC, or a kata hagai jime, or a half choke, or whatever, really doesn't matter. If you hit the temple, or the point of the chin, or the solar plexus, and the other guy goes down, the technique really doesn't matter. It's not important at all. It's just a single possible interaction that can occur. If the technique was the important thing, everyone would be doing the same.

From there we get to the idea of the techniques not being what "works"... well, the first thing you have to look at is what it means for something to "work" in the first place. Of course, the standard response to that is "it's effective"... okay, effective at what? Let's keep it where you think things are, and just look at a violent encounter... you're looking at a choke, or a punch, or an armbar being what is "effective"... but how do you get that armbar on in the first place? How does the punch have an opportunity to land? How do you get to a place where you can choke? And, if you're in a place where you can choke, can you do other things? Could you hit from that position? Or move into some other hold? Obviously, the answer is yes.

So what's important isn't the technique itself... what you do is kinda by-the-by, really. What's important is the tactical application of it... and the ability to put things together in a way that allow the techniques to work. If you don't have the ability to actually enable the techniques, the techniques won't mean a thing. The idea of getting caught up in "this technique, this armbar, this choke" is honestly a very basic, to my mind, beginner mentality. When you first learn a language, you want to know the words... but that doesn't let you speak it. The grammar, the sentence structure does. This is no different.

I do think having real fight experience is important for sure, I've stated a couple times that I think an average BJJ Blue Belt would have issues with an athletic, tough street fighter.

That of course begs the question of whether a contrived sporting encounter is really "real fight experience". It is, but it's only experience at one type of fight. And not necessarily the most valid for all contexts.

But I gotta ask.... "an athletic, tough street fighter"? What do you actually think they'd be like?

well when I speak of Self Defense I'm talking about being able to defend yourself against an attacker. moves that will help you defend yourself. You are maybe talking about escape and deescalation, etc. while it have been talking about actual contact, when the attack or fight is going to happen.

Honestly, I don't think you understand just what these attacks are like... and that's the issue. I've asked before, but I'll ask again (can't remember if I asked you or Kofo, really)... what do you know of social violence and asocial violence? Because, while a fair bit of what I am talking about as needing to be covered for actual self defence training includes things like escape and de-escalation, it's also about understanding and recognising the realities of different forms of violence, rather than sticking to a single form (and, before you misunderstand that, I'm really not meaning "striking vs grappling" or anything of the kind when I talk about different forms of violence).

You yourself have stated there are no SD martial arts for today's world, so why not take the best fighting art out there? MMA! And work from there.

Because that's not the same. It's like saying there's no teacher in my area for guitar, so why not learn the flute and figure guitar out from that? They're both musical instruments, and both play notes... but that's where it ends. Additionally, you're making one hell of a leap there... frankly, MMA is only the best fighting art for MMA competition. That's it. There is nothing that makes it "the best" in any other context. So the assumption of that being your best place to start is already somewhat off base (there are much better arts for self defence, really...) to begin with.

Could be, but MMA is trained at much more intense pace than many other martial arts and there is a lot more hard sparring, cardio, toughness. Etc.

Er... you think so, do you? Hmm....

Really, all MMA is in terms of it's training methodology, is geared towards MMA's aims of success in MMA competition. Cardio just isn't that important in self defence... sparring can be detrimental, when it all comes down to it... and as for "toughness", all I can say is "HA!"

Im not sure why you would be offended by someone saying for a street fight it doesn't matter how hard you train if the art you train isn't realistic for SD or fighting. I didn't mention "all TMA's or even Krav". I wasn't putting down TMA's in.

I think the implication that MMA is it and a bit, when that's simply not the case, is at the heart of it....

The context I was addressing was the technique isn't important if you're training hard in regards to fight.

Yeah... but you didn't get what was meant, of course...

Thee are many great reasons to train all martial arts I'm sure, but in this context if the techniques of the art don't work well in an actual fight, it doesn't matter how hard you train them.

The problems are that that is not the only context, and that "work well in an actual fight" is hardly a single answer issue. What kind of fight? What do you mean "works"? And, of course, what is the actual aim of the hard training?

I have delt delt with plenty of "MMA" fighters and gyms that trained there asses off to fight on my MMA shows and they get there asses handed to them because they are not training what works or training under a guy who doesn't know his stuff, doesn't mean I'm "disrespecting" MMA. Just means hard work isn't going to trump training techniques and arts that actually work.

Yeah... there's that "what works" thing again... Look, the thing is that this is so vague as to be completely meaningless.

Its funny, just because I'm an advocate for MMA & BJJ doesn't mean I don't like and respect all arts .

You hide it well.

So technique is not important?

Ultimately? Nope.

So technique is important?

On a basic level (in that the techniques need to be mechanically sound), yeah.

Technique is always important, if you have horrible technique then the technique you use will be ineffective and won't very well work no matter how hard you train.

No, not really. Techniques are simply the way that the actual important parts are applied.

Good grief! 207 posts and we have finally agreed that technique is important. :idunno:

Ha, nah, I don't agree with that...

 

[K-man]

On a basic level (in that the techniques need to be mechanically sound),

Originally Posted by K-man
Good grief! 207 posts and we have finally agreed that technique is important.

Ha, nah, I don't agree with that...

OK. I agree with you, on the basic level technique is important, at the next level it is still recognisable but at the top level you don't see it at all. You reckon we can win that one?
I just thought I was keeping the peace.
:asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm.... honestly, no... the only way technique is important is to make sure you don't use a face-block or similar... or think that waving your hands makes people fall down. It's not, however, a matter of the techniques "disappearing", it's a matter of them having no chance to do anything without the more important aspects being present first... and, once the other aspects are there, whatever technique you do doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's a right cross or a rear naked choke. The technique, when all's said and done, doesn't matter. It's not important.

And hey, I train combative systems that engender a mindset of "kill them all!" (well, in places...)... "peacemaker" doesn't sit well with me... you and your Aikido, though, perfect.... ha!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Good grief! 207 posts and we have finally agreed that technique is important. :idunno:

I guess if you bash your head against a wall often enough eventually it will come down and give you a headache.

 

[MJS]

An MMA fighter in a fight is great. But an MMA fighter who is a giant D-bag would dramatically increase your likelihood of getting into a fight. For fighting, I'll take the competent MMA'ists.

LOL! That's very true!

For self defense, I've said before that the ideal combination for me is some kind of reasonable training (whether it's MMA or something else), common sense, courtesy, physical fitness, situational awareness, and sobriety. And of those, the martial arts training is the least important.

Sounds good to me! Can't disagree with that!

 

[MJS]

That is absolutely wrong. You are taking Chris' point that MA is not for Self Defence to mean TMAs don't work. Chris is coming from a different point of view and he trains in very different arts. Krav is every bit as effective as MMA. Like MMA it combines a lot of techniques from other MAs. Absolutely no difference except Krav like every other TMA doesn't have this obsession of going to the ground which is the product of MMA's purpose which is a sport. MMA has taken a lot of those outdated techniques to use in a sporting environment. We train hard in a non sporting environment using the same techniques and more with the aim of controlling or destroying someone who threatens or attacks us.

Agreed.

An individual TMA such as Goju karate contains everything within Krav with the exception of the BJJ ground component. Even then Goju has many techniques for taking your opponent to the ground, just not to engage in grappling on the ground. You want to fight on the ground, great. Many of us don't want to be tied up rolling around on the ground. The ground is not the place we want to be.

Your comment is disrespectful of all of us who train anything but MMA.

Agreed again! In the Arnis that I do, there are a number of techniques for taking the other guy down, however, as you said, the difference is, we're not going down with the guy. Many of these takedowns, consist of some sort of control or break after the takedown. Some of the senior guys in the org. have done some BJJ training as well. I recall one camp, in which we did do a bit more non traditional Arnis groundwork. But as I said, for the most part, it's just as you describe with Goju.

 

[RTKDCMB]

On a basic level (in that the techniques need to be mechanically sound), yeah.

They need to be a bit more than just mechanically sound, they need to be fast, accurate, precise, powerful, effective and reliable. I've had many cars that were mechanically sound that I wouldn't exactly call good, fast or powerful.

Hmm.... honestly, no... the only way technique is important is to make sure you don't use a face-block or similar... or think that waving your hands makes people fall down.

You mean apart from the technique being fast, accurate, precise, powerful, effective and reliable?

It doesn't matter if it's a right cross or a rear naked choke. The technique, when all's said and done, doesn't matter. It's not important.

The right cross or rear naked choke still have to be performed properly to work properly so when it's all said and done, yes it does matter and, yes it is important. You could throw out a right cross with no power and your thumb on the inside of your fist and it will be virtually useless so yeah it matters. TMA practitioners would not spend lots of time on basics, line work, step sparring and patterns etc, if technique wasn't important.

 

[MJS]

Why would you lean toward the MMA fighter as having your back. And I agree somewhat that it depends on how the person trains, but overwhelmingly MMA'ist train hard and go live or as close to it as they can within reason and this is what's important.

now if your training "hard" in an art that is outdated, that's moves simple do not relate to real world self defense (FIGHTING, CONTACT, ETC) the. It doesn't matter how hard you train because it just doesn't work as well as other things do.

It was a legit question. I was interested in your take on it, then as I thought about it i typed out what I thought....... Which could be different from what you think.

I picked the MMA guy for the reasons that have already been mentioned. Of course, this isn't to say that someone who doesn't train MMA, is worthless or that I wouldn't pick them to have my back. I know many people that do not train MMA, but are more than capable of fighting and defending themselves. It's not always the art, but the way the person trains.

 

[MJS]

Good grief! 207 posts and we have finally agreed that technique is important. :idunno:

I'm hoping that this thread goes longer than the other one did!

 

[K-man]

I'm hoping that this thread goes longer than the other one did!

Someone needs to post something controversial!
.... Mmm, i'll think of something.

 

[Steve]

Someone needs to post something controversial!
.... Mmm, i'll think of something.

The thing that makes MMA more effective than other "arts" is sparring and aliveness.

I actually found an ACTUAL training video from a local TMA school:

A local, Seattle area MMA'ist actually went into a karate school and recorded the action:

 

[K-man]

The thing that makes MMA more effective than other "arts" is sparring and aliveness.

I actually found an ACTUAL training video from a local TMA school:

A local, Seattle area MMA'ist actually went into a karate school and recorded the action:

Not good enough.

The first video, they cut the good bit. The next part was where she slapped his face and dropped him with a nice kick to the nuts.

The second video, total disappointment. It came up with a label saying "this video is unavailable in your country". Damn! It could have been just the catalyst we needed.