MMA vs TMA

[ballen0351]

Well, I didn't bring up Karate because I was talking about classical Jujitsu versus modern Jujitsu (Judo/Bjj). And yeah, Takenouchi-Ryu certainly does exist, and there a few schools in the Japan, US, and Europe.

Again cherry picking a style with "a few Schools" to fit your point yet you ignore main stream martial arts that hurt your argument.

Let's just put it this way; If I had to send my daughter to a martial art school to learn self defense, it wouldn't be a Ninjutsu school. Additionally, if someone asked me if they should take up Ninjutsu for self defense, I would recommend against it.

And you didn't answer the question. Is it effective for self defense? I didn't ask if your daughter wanted to learn. I teach my daughter to shoot guns for self defense.

That said, if people out there enjoy the art, more power to them. I wish them nothing but the best in their training.

yet you feel the need to bash them at every post?

 

[Hanzou]

Again cherry picking a style with "a few Schools" to fit your point yet you ignore main stream martial arts that hurt your argument.

I was answering your question about Samurai arts still being practiced today. Karate is not a Samurai art, so why would I mention them?

And you didn't answer the question. Is it effective for self defense?

Not in my opinion.

 

[ballen0351]

I was answering your question about Samurai arts still being practiced today. Karate is not a Samurai art, so why would I mention them?

Earlier you were bashing Okinawan martial arts, then Kung Fu and now who knows so I guess its hard to keep track with you.

 

[jks9199]

I'm merely being honest. It's not my intention to make people upset.



Well to be fair many in this thread used the silly argument that Bjj is a sport, and then proceeded to use the sport vs. non-sport line. You know, "my art isn't a sport so I can grab your junk, or bite your eyes out" kind of deal.



When did I say anything about Krav Maga?

I thought I recalled your mention of Krav Maga; I may well be wrong. Things do blend in my head sometime...

I'm going to ask a blunt question: do you have any real world experience with violence? As in cop, bouncer, or the like? BJJ has some good things for self defense -- and there's an entire self defense curriculum within the art apart from the sport side. BUT when the Gracies tried to introduce a BJJ based LE Defensive Tactics program, they discovered they had to rethink a lot of it.

And it's not a silly argument that there's a difference between sportive training and training for violence. Read some of Marc MacYoung's stuff, or Rory Miller, or Geoff Thompson, or Peyton Quinn... There's lots more I could list. I like how Rory's summed up the four truths of violence: it's closer, faster, harder, and more unexpected than commonly believed. But let me revisit a few of the key differences[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Sport
[/TD]
[TD]Violence
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Equivalence in opponents
[/TD]
[TD]Victim often weaker, smaller than assailant
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Time to anticipate & prepare
[/TD]
[TD]No warning, often from behind
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Engage, score, separate, re-engange
[/TD]
[TD]Once on, doesn't stop until it's OVER
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Safe environment (mats, refs, rules)
[/TD]
[TD]Chaotic environment with unique dangers (concrete, broken glass, curbs...)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fun
[/TD]
[TD]Piss your pants scary
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Time for strategy and ploys like feints
[/TD]
[TD]If you have enough time for a feint or anything else -- you're in deep trouble!
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
This isn't meant to be exhaustive or exclusive. Now, sparring and competition does have some pros for preparing for real violence. It's unscripted. If you go with heavy contact, you have to learn to keep going. You have to learn to work a plan, and adapt to what happens. Those are some good things -- but there are also some bad habits. Beat the guy, stop -- and reengage? In a real attack, you've now become an attacker, not a defender, and may well find yourself on the wrong side of the jail bars.

You've found traditional kata training flawed. Let's talk a bit about that. There are two types of things that fall under the kata or form definition. One is a solo exercise, often designed to include/incorporate and engrain principles and tactics for responding to attacks. (Some other types are memorials, some are pure artistic expression, some purely for health/conditioning.) These kata are often codebooks or catalogs of tactics, strategies, and techniques. Another type is a two-person exercise... In these, the beginner does a rote exercise, fed an ideal attack to respond to. But, as the student develops skill, competence, and confidence in the technique, their partner (usually a more senior student in a very traditional setting, but not exclusively) begins to vary the attack. They take advantage of mistakes or errors in the performance of the technique, or lapses in the student's focus. They become less or even almost unscripted. Does this sound a lot like something you're familiar with?

Then there are exercises like randori, which are more free form.

 

[Hanzou]

I thought I recalled your mention of Krav Maga; I may well be wrong. Things do blend in my head sometime...

I'm going to ask a blunt question: do you have any real world experience with violence? As in cop, bouncer, or the like? BJJ has some good things for self defense -- and there's an entire self defense curriculum within the art apart from the sport side. BUT when the Gracies tried to introduce a BJJ based LE Defensive Tactics program, they discovered they had to rethink a lot of it.

I worked security for a couple of years. I was also a bouncer at a club for about 1.5 years. I currently teach emotional disturbed teenagers and young adults. So yes, I've been exposed to several incidences of real world violence.

Also isn't Bjj taught to the U.S. military and to police departments all over the country? Wouldn't that somewhat validate its effectiveness as a self defense system?

This isn't meant to be exhaustive or exclusive. Now, sparring and competition does have some pros for preparing for real violence. It's unscripted. If you go with heavy contact, you have to learn to keep going. You have to learn to work a plan, and adapt to what happens. Those are some good things -- but there are also some bad habits. Beat the guy, stop -- and reengage? In a real attack, you've now become an attacker, not a defender, and may well find yourself on the wrong side of the jail bars.

If I beat the guy, I'm choking him unconscious, so there's no need to re-engage. You put the clown to sleep, and wait for the cops to come. The police aren't going to do much if your attacker is taking a snooze, and you're co-operative.

Now if I'm bashing the guys face into the concrete, rip off his nuts, or bite him like some animal, yeah I'm probably going to prison. But why do all that when I could simply restrain, or put him to sleep? Bjj is a gentle, yet effective way to dispatch someone.

You've found traditional kata training flawed. Let's talk a bit about that. There are two types of things that fall under the kata or form definition. One is a solo exercise, often designed to include/incorporate and engrain principles and tactics for responding to attacks. (Some other types are memorials, some are pure artistic expression, some purely for health/conditioning.) These kata are often codebooks or catalogs of tactics, strategies, and techniques. Another type is a two-person exercise... In these, the beginner does a rote exercise, fed an ideal attack to respond to. But, as the student develops skill, competence, and confidence in the technique, their partner (usually a more senior student in a very traditional setting, but not exclusively) begins to vary the attack. They take advantage of mistakes or errors in the performance of the technique, or lapses in the student's focus. They become less or even almost unscripted. Does this sound a lot like something you're familiar with?

Then there are exercises like randori, which are more free form.

Randori is free form at full speed and full power. Randori is the advantage Judo and Bjj have over other styles because randori takes place constantly. Every time I've been in a Bjj or Judo class, they've done randori.

Though katas have their uses, for fighting purposes, they simply don't compare.

 

[ballen0351]

I worked security for a couple of years. I was also a bouncer at a club for about 1.5 years. I currently teach emotional disturbed teenagers and young adults. So yes, I've been exposed to several incidences of real world violence.

Not even close

Also isn't Bjj taght to the U.S. military and to police departments all over the country? Wouldn't that somewhat validate its effectiveness as a self defense system?

Nope its not.

If I beat the guy, I'm choking him unconscious, so there's no need to re-engage. You put the clown to sleep, and wait for the cops to come. The police aren't going to do much if your attacker is taking a snooze, and you're co-operative.

How many real live fights have you been in where you have put someone to sleep? Its not as easy as it is in class.

Now if I'm bashing the guys face into the concrete, rip off his nuts, or bite him like some animal, yeah I'm probably going to prison. But why do all that when I could simply restrain, or put him to sleep? Bjj is a gentle, yet effective way to dispatch someone.

So then if its so great why do MMA fighters bother learning anything else. Juat learn BJJ and you win every time? Ive been a police Defensive tact. Instructor for years why dont we teach cops to put people to sleep?

Randori is free form at full speed and full power. Randori is the advantage Judo and Bjj have over other styles because randori takes place constantly. Every time I've been in a Bjj or Judo class, they've done randori.

Its not full speed and power in class not like fighting in real life. It's controlled simulation

Though katas have their uses, for fighting purposes, they simply don't compare.

because your not doing them right

 

[Hanzou]

How many real live fights have you been in where you have put someone to sleep? Its not as easy as it is in class.

Only once. It was somewhat easier than class because the guy didn't know how to defend against it.

So then if its so great why do MMA fighters bother learning anything else. Juat learn BJJ and you win every time?

That's exactly how it used to be, until everyone learned Bjj.

Its not full speed and power in class not like fighting in real life. It's controlled simulation

Actually it is full speed and power in class, and honestly, I have yet to see a fist fight where two people didn't clinch up or try to wrestle each other to the ground.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Actually it is full speed and power in class, and honestly, I have yet to see a fist fight where two people didn't clinch up or try to wrestle each other to the ground.

I have.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I agree that what is "best" is subjective, I disagree that what is "effective" is subjective.

For example, learning break falling on wooden floors and concrete isn't as effective as learning how to break fall on mats.

In all the time in Hapkido where we were rolling and break falling on wooden floors there was not one single injury for anyone in the entire class. In my primary style we train in community centers and high school gyms and don't usually have the luxury of using mats. If we are doing ground defences or certain takedowns it is on a wooden floor and the break falls are performed on the wooden floor. Break falls are designed to minimize injuries by spreading the force evenly over a wider area such as the palm and forearm, the worse you will get is stinging fingers for a few minutes and that is nothing. If the person we are taking down is going to be hurt by hitting the ground we control their descent. If we are doing throws such as then basic hip throw we get then mats out and do it on them or we will do them outside the hall on the grass (weather permitting) and when we do beach training. If I wanted to use your reasoning I would ask how you think the break falls and going to the ground in BJJ is going to be effective on a real world hard surface if you only ever practice it on soft cushy mats?

As for the effectiveness being subjective thing, it depends on what you are naturally good at and how and what you have trained. You could probably use a flying armbar effectively, I could not, I could use a side kick effectively, you could not.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If I beat the guy, I'm choking him unconscious, so there's no need to re-engage. You put the clown to sleep, and wait for the cops to come. The police aren't going to do much if your attacker is taking a snooze, and you're co-operative.

You could say exactly the same thing about knocking the guy out with a punch.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well to be fair many in this thread used the silly argument that Bjj is a sport, and then proceeded to use the sport vs. non-sport line. You know, "my art isn't a sport so I can grab your junk, or bite your eyes out" kind of deal.

What is it with you sport guys with your fascination with nuts and eyes, :s90: you know there are a great many more targets and techniques that are used for self defence? Attacking to the groin and eye is not the sole defining difference between self defence and sport you know.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Format of the rolling? We just squared off and I took them down and subbed them. If you dont know how to stop a take down, you're going down. If you don't know how to counter a hold, you're not escaping the hold. If you don't know how to transition, you're screwed. If you try to punch me, or put your hands out, I'm going to break your arm or your shoulder.

It's that simple.

In the end, we're fundamentally doing the same thing. I'm simply utilizing a more modern form of Jujutsu. Again, the car vs the horse drawn carriage.

I know how to stop takedowns, counter holds and transition. If someone tried to do one of those double leg takedowns on me, unless they took me by surprise, they would probably end up with a knife hand to the back of the neck or base of the skull and it would be lights out and there would not be any grappling after that or some other horrible thing could happen. The very last thing I would want to do when sparring one of our black belts would be to try to grab them around the body as there would likely be a nasty accident. Going for one of those clinches could get you headbutted. Grabbing someone's arm when they are striking full speed is very difficult and if you don't know how to counter a strike or a kick then you are going to get seriously hurt.

The moral of the story is that if you can't defend against a certain type of attack then you are vulnerable to that attack. If you get choked out you cannot strike and if you are knocked then you cannot grapple.

 

[RTKDCMB]

This thread is starting to get a bit boring for me and I am getting a headache banging my head against the Hanzou wall. I think I will move on, but I can't promise I won’t be back at some stage in the future.

 

[K-man]

This thread is starting to get a bit boring for me and I am getting a headache banging my head against the Hanzou wall. I think I will move on, but I can't promise I won’t be back at some stage in the future.

Welcome to the club!

 

[Kframe]

Hanzou you completely ignored JKS statements about Paired kata and how it is performed. How convenient for you to ignore something that contradicts your anti traditional rant.

Why are you still even debating this? You wont change anyones mind, nor will we change yours.. So why keep bashing people for the style of martial arts they do? Honestly your not making any friends here by pissing everyone off with every post you make.

Weather you like it or not these traditional arts work. Most are not good for competition and that is fine. Id say I someone uses Ninjutsu or some other really old jap art to defend them selves then It worked just fine.

I don't know about you but I rather much enjoy the weapons training.

 

[Hanzou]

I know how to stop takedowns, counter holds and transition. If someone tried to do one of those double leg takedowns on me, unless they took me by surprise, they would probably end up with a knife hand to the back of the neck or base of the skull and it would be lights out and there would not be any grappling after that or some other horrible thing could happen. The very last thing I would want to do when sparring one of our black belts would be to try to grab them around the body as there would likely be a nasty accident. Going for one of those clinches could get you headbutted. Grabbing someone's arm when they are striking full speed is very difficult and if you don't know how to counter a strike or a kick then you are going to get seriously hurt.

LoL! Learn some real takedown defense man. None of that is real takedown defense.

I also wouldn't grab someone's arm when they're striking full speed. I don't need to.

The moral of the story is that if you can't defend against a certain type of attack then you are vulnerable to that attack. If you get choked out you cannot strike and if you are knocked then you cannot grapple.

You're not going to knock someone out by knife handing someone in the back of the neck while they're taking you down. I'm just going to let you know that now before you hurt yourself. Your target is small and moving, and you need to generate a significant amount of force in a small amount of space. Meanwhile, the grappler has a huge target, and needs to utilize a relatively small amount of force to take you down.

What's worse, if the grappler knows what he's doing, he's going to make it so that you won't see it coming, and won't be able to hit them at all.

Im really surprised that MA schools still teach that nonsense to people. Just teach your students how to fight on their back, or on the ground. It's not that difficult.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I wasn't going to make another comment on this thread for a while but since you insist on making ridiculous statements about the 'indefensible' DL takedown.

LoL! Learn some real takedown defense man. None of that is real takedown defense.

You're not going to knock someone out by knife handing someone in the back of the neck while they're taking you down. I'm just going to let you know that now before you hurt yourself. Your target is small and moving, and you need to generate a significant amount of force in a small amount of space. Meanwhile, the grappler has a huge target, and needs to utilize a relatively small amount of force to take you down.


What's worse, if the grappler knows what he's doing, he's going to make it so that you won't see it coming, and won't be able to hit them at all.

Im really surprised that MA schools still teach that nonsense to people. Just teach your students how to fight on their back, or on the ground. It's not that difficult.

Try this, make yourself a knifehand and hit yourself gently on the base of the skull, do it a bit harder if you want to, and take notice of the effect. Now get someone to do it to you with full force, then when you get out of the hospital, post a comment about it. "Hit a small moving target", not a problem, do it all the time it's called accuracy and precision, "generate a significant amount of force" easily done. Now for that specific technique (its just one of many for a variety of situations, and one I'm willing to bet you've never even seen), it involves only a slight sideways movement to work and it is designed for a shallow shoot (from someone standing in front of you a meter or so away). Against a charge from a distance the strike will impact on the ribs or kidneys (based on actual training against someone charging full speed). Another against a full speed charge is to grab the head with both hands, one on the chin, one on the back of the head, before the grab takes hold, and twist the head, and you will go down without much resistance and it is very fast and easy to do. If I did that hard and fast you would not be looking left and right for a while.

We are used to kicks and strikes and whole people coming at us fast and suddenly all the time, a shoot is nothing special. The students in my art know how to defend themselves on their back and on the ground, they just don't do it your way and for the same reasons.

Once again your complete lack of understanding about they way things work outside of your little fantasy world of your art is superior and nothing else works,confounds me.

 

[Hanzou]

I wasn't going to make another comment on this thread for a while but since you insist on making ridiculous statements about the 'indefensible' DL takedown.

Who said anything about the DLT? There is more than one take down in every grappling art, and a grappler doesn't need to bull charge you to get you to the ground. All they need to do is get their hands on you.

Try this, make yourself a knifehand and hit yourself gently on the base of the skull, do it a bit harder if you want to, and take notice of the effect. Now get someone to do it to you with full force, then when you get out of the hospital, post a comment about it. "Hit a small moving target", not a problem, do it all the time it's called accuracy and precision, "generate a significant amount of force" easily done. Now for that specific technique (its just one of many for a variety of situations, and one I'm willing to bet you've never even seen), it involves only a slight sideways movement to work and it is designed for a shallow shoot (from someone standing in front of you a meter or so away). Against a charge from a distance the strike will impact on the ribs or kidneys (based on actual training against someone charging full speed). Another against a full speed charge is to grab the head with both hands, one on the chin, one on the back of the head, before the grab takes hold, and twist the head, and you will go down without much resistance and it is very fast and easy to do. If I did that hard and fast you would not be looking left and right for a while.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2oFvJspHA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=Xc2oFvJspHA

Check out the Sambo guy's SLT into a leglock. If you think you can stop that with your knife hand attack, you're delusional. Not only is his neck and head tucked past your hip, but he's also lifting off your feet with complete control of your leg.

We are used to kicks and strikes and whole people coming at us fast and suddenly all the time, a shoot is nothing special. The students in my art know how to defend themselves on their back and on the ground, they just don't do it your way and for the same reasons.

Considering that you're using knife hand attacks to the neck to stop takedowns, I'm inclined to agree that you don't do things the way we do.

Once again your complete lack of understanding about they way things work outside of your little fantasy world of your art is superior and nothing else works,confounds me.

Actually if you check out that video, I felt that the Sambo guys td was WAY better than the Bjj guys td. The Bjj guys leglock was way too complex, and took way too long to lock in. The Sambo guy's td and lock was quick, and to the point.

That's why we cross train.

In fact, you should practice that SLT and use it at your next Hapkido sparring practice. See how it goes. I think you're going to love the results.

 

[K-man]

I certainly hope a number of people get to watch this video because it illustrates perfectly the difference between reality based self defence and sport.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2oFvJspHA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=Xc2oFvJspHA


If any of you guys practise this sort of stuff keep it for competition. If you do it against a trained martial artist on the street you will end up a paraplegic and the experienced guys on this forum will know exactly what I mean.
:asian:

 

[Kframe]

To be fair though RTKDCMB you do have to stop the initial push of the SLT/DLT. You have to have a good sprawl or atleast not get taken down. If you manage to not go down immediately then your attack to his neck would work great. That is predicated on you stopping his forward push on your lower extremities during the takedown. Its not the counter attack it self that is in doubt its everything that leads up to it. Here is a Famous video showing exactly what he and you are talking about..

That was a simple DLT. Yes he could have knife handed his neck, but he couldn't because he didn't stop the forward momentum first. Again its not your back of neck attack that is in question, its weather or not you can do it as he is tackling you. Im sorry but I hate this troll as much as you do, but in this instance a sprawl is a better option.

I wasn't going to make another comment on this thread for a while but since you insist on making ridiculous statements about the 'indefensible' DL takedown.



Try this, make yourself a knifehand and hit yourself gently on the base of the skull, do it a bit harder if you want to, and take notice of the effect. Now get someone to do it to you with full force, then when you get out of the hospital, post a comment about it. "Hit a small moving target", not a problem, do it all the time it's called accuracy and precision, "generate a significant amount of force" easily done. Now for that specific technique (its just one of many for a variety of situations, and one I'm willing to bet you've never even seen), it involves only a slight sideways movement to work and it is designed for a shallow shoot (from someone standing in front of you a meter or so away). Against a charge from a distance the strike will impact on the ribs or kidneys (based on actual training against someone charging full speed). Another against a full speed charge is to grab the head with both hands, one on the chin, one on the back of the head, before the grab takes hold, and twist the head, and you will go down without much resistance and it is very fast and easy to do. If I did that hard and fast you would not be looking left and right for a while.

We are used to kicks and strikes and whole people coming at us fast and suddenly all the time, a shoot is nothing special. The students in my art know how to defend themselves on their back and on the ground, they just don't do it your way and for the same reasons.

Once again your complete lack of understanding about they way things work outside of your little fantasy world of your art is superior and nothing else works,confounds me.