MMA vs TMA
- Thread starter Mr. President
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Not sure what happened there but it should work now.
Just in case;
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2oFvJspHA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=Xc2oFvJspHA
Cheers.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Actually, the entire concept of karate chopping someone who is performing a take down on you is questionable. Your chances of success are minimal at best, and if you're against someone who knows what they're doing, your chances of doing anything other than pissing the guy off is pretty close to zero.
There's several ways to stop a takedown. A karate chop to the neck isn't one of them.
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
Anyone else thinking that if another man's face gets that close to my groin area in a combat situation, then they're going to get quite a powerful knee to the underside of their jaw?
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ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
1st your not going full speed and power in a class. You may be going hard but not like you would be in a real fight for your life. 2nd How many real life fights have you seen? That myth that every fight goes to the ground is well....a myth.
Again you ignored the rest of my post. If BJJ /Judo was the end all be all to self defense why dont we teach it to every cop on the street? Why does any MMA fighter bother learning anything else? Every art has its plus and minus. There is no perfect art. Which is why may people do cross train in different arts to be more well rounded because there is no perfect art. Most people are smart enough to know that. You enjoy BJJ and Judo thats great. I suggest you add a striking art to be more rounded because there my be a time you cant or its not smart to go to the ground to choke a guy out. Id go as far as to say its almost never the best idea to go to the ground in a real fight, but nobody can tell you anything so you will probably ignore my advise. I wish you the best and hope you never need to learn that lesson. You like what you like and thats fine but to talk down to others styles because you dont understand them is rude and shows your ignorance.
I've started a separate thread to get away from the toxic nature of this one.
Samurai Spirit Karate
I don't expect all you guys to watch this as it is a lengthy video but for those interested in TMA it does show 'traditional' karate and explains a little as to why it is not used in competition.
:asian:
Samurai Spirit Karate
I don't expect all you guys to watch this as it is a lengthy video but for those interested in TMA it does show 'traditional' karate and explains a little as to why it is not used in competition.
:asian:
Mauthos
2nd Black Belt
I've kept quiet with regard to this thread as felt there was a little bit of trolling and that no matter what anyone has said or what proof has been given Hanzo is just not going to change his opinion. However, two things bug me with his arguments:
- Break falling on mats is better practice for 'real' world situations than a hard solid floor? This I cannot agree with, yes I understand that being able to fall hundreds of times on a nice soft mat avoids injury and means you can practice more often, yet this style of training also breeds complacency. I learnt break falls on a crash mat and once I was confident moved onto thin matts and then onto the wooden floors and in some training halls on concrete floors. This has meant that I am more than confident to be thrown from any type of throw onto any surface and I will not end up hurt. The flip side to this is that I also know that when thrown onto a mat I do not have to be as precise with my break fall and can relax a little knowing that the mat will take some of the power out of the fall. Therefore I can be complacent and my break fall will not be as technically accurate as when I am thrown onto a hard surface.
This to me then proves that training break falls on a 'real' solid surface will instill better habits than falling onto a mat and ensure that your break falls maintain their effectiveness as you will not become complacent by relying on a soft surface to cushion the fall. My opinion, but considering I have trained this way for over 20 years and have never sustained and injury from a break fall or failed a break fall, I think it works.
- Hanzo has stated when pushed with, what is the point in learning anything else in martial arts outside of BJJ if it is so effective, that in the early days of UFC this was proven and now people have to learn other styles as now everyone knows BJJ. To a certain extent this is true, most fighters learn some level of BJJ to use in the ring, but not always in order to win a fight with it. Chuck Liddell for example used it to stop people being able to take him down and at one point had the highly impressive record of the longest time he was held down on the ground being13 seconds. Did this mean he used BJJ to win his fights? Considering most of his wins came from KO/TKO I don't think BJJ contributed to his style of winning fights, but I will concede it helped him prevent people using their BJJ against him.
Now, Hanzo, as you respect the Gracies, this also brings me to Matt Hughe's fights over the last few years of his career. Sure, I expect he has learnt some BJJ (I haven't checked to confirm this) but when he beat Royce it was his wrestling ability he used to take him down and his poor use of BJJ that meant he couldn't get the leverage onto the armbar to break Royce's arm as Royce was refusing to tap. Therefore, he changed his game and used ground and pound to win the fight, he effectively showed that only knowing BJJ was not enough to win in the UFC anymore and I wouldn't say he particularly showed any good BJJ skill himself that led to the win.
More significantly is his defeat of Renzo Grazie. Over the 3 rounds he only took Renzo down once maybe twice. He effectively stood toe to toe with him and won by TKO due to strikes. His leg kicks were that powerful he was knocking Renzo down who really couldn't answer the power. It was a relatively dull fight, but again Matt Hughes showed no BJJ skills in this particular fight and barely used any of his wrestling pedigree to win and therefore if BJJ was all you needed, surely Renzo should have defeated Matt Hughes effectively by using BJJ against him, but no, he decided to stand toe to toe with him and was distinctly lacking and was unuable to utilise his BJJ when he tried to use it.
That is my opinion and no doubt if the rest of this thread is any indication you will disagree with this as well and still claim BJJ is the be all and end all (I won't mention going to the ground to choke someone out on the street in a street fight is dangerous as, you know, mates, kicking you in the head, stupidity of being on the ground when you have no idea who else could be around or want to get involved, other people better than me have tried to explain this to you) so take it or leave it. This is all I will say in the matter.
Oh and before you claim that I am just another TMArtist that knows nothing, for your information due to my military service and travelling around I have trained in many martial arts including BJJ, Thai Boxing etc and found that my more traditional styles (Tang Soo Do & Kenpo (although not that traditional really)) have helped me more in self defence situations than the MMA styles (oh, and yes I also still train in Kick Boxing and have for the past 20 years) and I have also been to jujitsu classes that were awful with instructors teaching techniques ineffectively. So there are bad MMA style clubs out there just as there are bad TMA clubs, it is just something we can't escape from unfortunately.
My 2 pence.
- Break falling on mats is better practice for 'real' world situations than a hard solid floor? This I cannot agree with, yes I understand that being able to fall hundreds of times on a nice soft mat avoids injury and means you can practice more often, yet this style of training also breeds complacency. I learnt break falls on a crash mat and once I was confident moved onto thin matts and then onto the wooden floors and in some training halls on concrete floors. This has meant that I am more than confident to be thrown from any type of throw onto any surface and I will not end up hurt. The flip side to this is that I also know that when thrown onto a mat I do not have to be as precise with my break fall and can relax a little knowing that the mat will take some of the power out of the fall. Therefore I can be complacent and my break fall will not be as technically accurate as when I am thrown onto a hard surface.
This to me then proves that training break falls on a 'real' solid surface will instill better habits than falling onto a mat and ensure that your break falls maintain their effectiveness as you will not become complacent by relying on a soft surface to cushion the fall. My opinion, but considering I have trained this way for over 20 years and have never sustained and injury from a break fall or failed a break fall, I think it works.
- Hanzo has stated when pushed with, what is the point in learning anything else in martial arts outside of BJJ if it is so effective, that in the early days of UFC this was proven and now people have to learn other styles as now everyone knows BJJ. To a certain extent this is true, most fighters learn some level of BJJ to use in the ring, but not always in order to win a fight with it. Chuck Liddell for example used it to stop people being able to take him down and at one point had the highly impressive record of the longest time he was held down on the ground being13 seconds. Did this mean he used BJJ to win his fights? Considering most of his wins came from KO/TKO I don't think BJJ contributed to his style of winning fights, but I will concede it helped him prevent people using their BJJ against him.
Now, Hanzo, as you respect the Gracies, this also brings me to Matt Hughe's fights over the last few years of his career. Sure, I expect he has learnt some BJJ (I haven't checked to confirm this) but when he beat Royce it was his wrestling ability he used to take him down and his poor use of BJJ that meant he couldn't get the leverage onto the armbar to break Royce's arm as Royce was refusing to tap. Therefore, he changed his game and used ground and pound to win the fight, he effectively showed that only knowing BJJ was not enough to win in the UFC anymore and I wouldn't say he particularly showed any good BJJ skill himself that led to the win.
More significantly is his defeat of Renzo Grazie. Over the 3 rounds he only took Renzo down once maybe twice. He effectively stood toe to toe with him and won by TKO due to strikes. His leg kicks were that powerful he was knocking Renzo down who really couldn't answer the power. It was a relatively dull fight, but again Matt Hughes showed no BJJ skills in this particular fight and barely used any of his wrestling pedigree to win and therefore if BJJ was all you needed, surely Renzo should have defeated Matt Hughes effectively by using BJJ against him, but no, he decided to stand toe to toe with him and was distinctly lacking and was unuable to utilise his BJJ when he tried to use it.
That is my opinion and no doubt if the rest of this thread is any indication you will disagree with this as well and still claim BJJ is the be all and end all (I won't mention going to the ground to choke someone out on the street in a street fight is dangerous as, you know, mates, kicking you in the head, stupidity of being on the ground when you have no idea who else could be around or want to get involved, other people better than me have tried to explain this to you) so take it or leave it. This is all I will say in the matter.
Oh and before you claim that I am just another TMArtist that knows nothing, for your information due to my military service and travelling around I have trained in many martial arts including BJJ, Thai Boxing etc and found that my more traditional styles (Tang Soo Do & Kenpo (although not that traditional really)) have helped me more in self defence situations than the MMA styles (oh, and yes I also still train in Kick Boxing and have for the past 20 years) and I have also been to jujitsu classes that were awful with instructors teaching techniques ineffectively. So there are bad MMA style clubs out there just as there are bad TMA clubs, it is just something we can't escape from unfortunately.
My 2 pence.
I agree with you on those points, you do have to stop his forward momentum from forcing you backwards, and that is hard to do which is why the technique would not be used against a full speed charge. You would have to get out of the line of attack and if he was charging too fast the knife hand would impact too far down his body to be completely effective. The video below is the closest thing I could find on the technique in question.
Before anyone says so, I realize it is not being shown at full speed because he is only demonstrating.
The sprawl is a good option but it does leave you in a rather unbalanced position that could leave you briefly vulnerable to a second attacker.
As for the knee to the face, that would have the danger of the leg being caught, making it easier to take you down, you'd be better off sidestepping and using a front kick or turning (roundhouse) kick at the appropriate angle. If it is powerful enough it may still get through a grab attempt. Here is another video for a shallow shoot (ignore everything after the 4 second mark). by using the blocks you can stop him from grabbing you, using a forward stance (as long as the back leg is locked out straight, the back foot is at a 45 degree angle and flat on the floor it is very difficult to push you over), once the forward momentum is stopped, you can then knee him in his now wide open head.
It seems I could not stay away for long.
Disclaimer - By 'you' I mean whoever is doing the takedown defence, not anyone in particular.
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Dinkydoo
Purple Belt
Not many non-professional fighters could withstand this and carry on with the takedown IMO:
As soon as you lower yourself into going for the takedown a whole load of strikes are on.
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Hanzou
Grandmaster
I said that practicing on mats is more effective than practicing on harder surfaces. Unless your mat is actually a mattress, I wouldn't consider a mat to be soft. It's definitely softer than wood or concrete, but landing on it still produces a significant level of force. To say that training on a mat breeds complacency is a pretty silly statement. People get injured or hurt practicing on mats all the time. Look at Judo players. Their bodies are beaten to heck and back by constant Judo throws on mats. You could literally kill someone by Judo throwing them on concrete.
As I stated before, Jigaro Kano proved this over 100 years ago. Training on mats instead of on harder surfaces is how Judo defeated classical Jujutsu.
The rest of your post is just silly. I never said that Bjj was be all end all. Nor did I say that the Gracie's are gods who couldn't be defeated. What is said was that Bjj dominated the UFC for a long time until people learned the game, and can now effectively fight fire with fire. In short, you can't win in the MMA arena without a background in Bjj. If you need proof of this, look at the woman's side of MMA, and Rhonda Rousey's dominance due to her combination of Bjj and Judo. Most women fighters tend to focus on kickboxing instead of Bjj and wrestling, and Rousey has capitalized on that fact.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
LoL! You have to actually get the knee to connect. The grappler has a higher chance of taking you down, than you do of getting the knee. Additionally, DLT isn't the only type of takedown.
Still better than the karate chop to the back of the head.
Dinkydoo
Purple Belt
The grappler has a better chance of the takedown if the knee doesn't connect properly. If it does, then I'd say the opposite was true. The video is an example of what I was getting at about the DLT, the grappler, for a split second, is left wide open - a good, trained striker should have a reasonably high chance of connecting with a well timed strike. If the grappler has a lot of momentum and a chin of titanium then they could well steam through the strike and succeed with a takedown, but a DLT at that speed on concrete has a very high risk associated with - and that's before the other guy's mates decide to get involved - therefore making it, IMO, a silly strategy in a real self defence scenario.
Koshiki
Brown Belt
I realize this is sarcasm, but just to jump in here, as Hanzou, and likely others, tend to very much disbelieve and very much want to disprove anything said in favour of non MMA/BJJ training. DON'T try this.
-It takes, relatively, a VERY small amount of focused force to severely damage the cervical vertebrae (top ones in your neck). Jarring these can, yes, cause a black out, but also a concussion.
-Even if it doesn't knock you out, you will likely suffer from a permanently weakened neck and increased likelihood of serious spinal injury during rough activity.
-Slightly more force can lead to full body paralysis, and if you are unlucky enough to crack a vertebra, the edges can easily sever a variety of nerves, some of the most common leading to instant fatality, or paralysis of the respiratory system, which can also be instantly fatal, or take a few, very unpleasant minutes.
Which is another reason where I try not to mess around with techniques that put the back of my neck in range, and rely on being fast enough to not get hit. I'd rather take a good solid blow almost anywhere else...
But yes. The thread is very tiring, at this point. Also, those in it seem to have a great deal more time to devote to online sparring than I do, so I cannot keep up at all. Each login shows me another 2-3 pages of posts. So, have fun, keep the peace, what's left of it, and please don't get your buddies to "karate chop" your cervical vertebrae!
The reason why I said it that way was to illustrate how dangerous that strike is, that's why I said to do it gently,after doing that you don't need to do it hard to guess how nasty it would be. A less severe option would be to strike the back of the neck on an angle with a bit less force.
Koshiki
Brown Belt
I know, I know. The hospital bit was especially telling! I just wanted to jump in to make it ABSOLUTELY clear to anyone reading that you were NOT exaggerating, and if anything, understating the effectiveness/danger of strikes here!
I've skimmed thru this thread but haven't posted until now. Even though this is a topic that has been done to death, I'll jump in and offer my thoughts.
BJJ and TMA can both benefit from each other. IMO, they both tend to have their strong and weak areas. Both train alive and resistance, although depending on the TMA school, that may not always be the case.
Sparring vs full contact/street fights: Some will say that sparring is bad, that instead, training should be done with just the SD techniques. To each their own I suppose. Me personally, I like sparring, as well as scenario training. As for there being a difference between sparring in a club and sparring in a full contact setting...well, I'd say it would depend. Last year, I fought my first semi knockdown Kyokushin tournament, and the 'feeling' was certainly different when we were out there. Of course we all wanted to win, so the intensity was really there. OTOH, there have been some pretty hard and heavy sparring sessions in the dojo, as well as on belt exams.
Going to the ground in a street fight/90% of all fights go to the ground. Sorry, but that is a marketing claim by the Gracies, and their work with various LE agencies. There is a time and place for everything, and while forming a circle in Brazil, with 2 people in the middle, while everyone else stands around watching...well, the odds of that happening in the US, are pretty slim. Now, I'm not saying I hate BJJ. Many of my friends train it on a regular basis and I've done my share of it as well, however, when the poop is hitting the fan, should I find myself on the ground, I'm going to do whatever I can, to get back to a standing position. I'm not going to continue to roll around, looking for a sub. That's foolish IMO.
In the end, as I said, each have their pros and cons. Odds are, you're never going to change someones point of view, so that said, just enjoy the training, for whatever reasons you want to train.
BJJ and TMA can both benefit from each other. IMO, they both tend to have their strong and weak areas. Both train alive and resistance, although depending on the TMA school, that may not always be the case.
Sparring vs full contact/street fights: Some will say that sparring is bad, that instead, training should be done with just the SD techniques. To each their own I suppose. Me personally, I like sparring, as well as scenario training. As for there being a difference between sparring in a club and sparring in a full contact setting...well, I'd say it would depend. Last year, I fought my first semi knockdown Kyokushin tournament, and the 'feeling' was certainly different when we were out there. Of course we all wanted to win, so the intensity was really there. OTOH, there have been some pretty hard and heavy sparring sessions in the dojo, as well as on belt exams.
Going to the ground in a street fight/90% of all fights go to the ground. Sorry, but that is a marketing claim by the Gracies, and their work with various LE agencies. There is a time and place for everything, and while forming a circle in Brazil, with 2 people in the middle, while everyone else stands around watching...well, the odds of that happening in the US, are pretty slim. Now, I'm not saying I hate BJJ. Many of my friends train it on a regular basis and I've done my share of it as well, however, when the poop is hitting the fan, should I find myself on the ground, I'm going to do whatever I can, to get back to a standing position. I'm not going to continue to roll around, looking for a sub. That's foolish IMO.
In the end, as I said, each have their pros and cons. Odds are, you're never going to change someones point of view, so that said, just enjoy the training, for whatever reasons you want to train.
MJS I know you say youll do what ever it takes to get back to your feet. I know you train bjj some times, but this for those that don't. You don't really know how to get back to your feet if your entangled with someone, till you actually grapple with someone.
Im not advocating that TMA go out and adopt a full white to black ground system but they should start adding some to there training. Not the full curriculum but say a set of teachings for the various positions. Mount/sidemount/halfguard/guard/back. Have a beginner a intermediate and a advanced curriculum. It needs to be paired down. GJJ is some where north of 600+ techs. I say just focus on defending the main subs, and how to escape each of the positions.
I fully support tma, but I hear it often how they will do what ever it takes to get back to your feet. If you don't know the proper way to trap and roll from mount or escape the other positions, your going to waste a lot of precious energy flailing futilely trying, while not accomplishing anything.
Trust me, before I had any training, I was in a few fights. I know how scary it is to be on the bottom of mount, trying desperately to escape and not getting anything done. Had I known then, the simple trap and roll, id have beat his ****. TMA often understate just how scary the ground really is.
Im not advocating that TMA go out and adopt a full white to black ground system but they should start adding some to there training. Not the full curriculum but say a set of teachings for the various positions. Mount/sidemount/halfguard/guard/back. Have a beginner a intermediate and a advanced curriculum. It needs to be paired down. GJJ is some where north of 600+ techs. I say just focus on defending the main subs, and how to escape each of the positions.
I fully support tma, but I hear it often how they will do what ever it takes to get back to your feet. If you don't know the proper way to trap and roll from mount or escape the other positions, your going to waste a lot of precious energy flailing futilely trying, while not accomplishing anything.
Trust me, before I had any training, I was in a few fights. I know how scary it is to be on the bottom of mount, trying desperately to escape and not getting anything done. Had I known then, the simple trap and roll, id have beat his ****. TMA often understate just how scary the ground really is.
Your assuming that MJS hasn't trained BJJ and your assuming wrong. The same goes for for many many MAist. This discussion is old and has been going on since UFC1 in 1993. I trained BJJ for a few years (on my off days from regular training) starting in 1998 and one day I was on the mat and I said to myself "why am I still here?" I loved it but BJJ has many holes too and I got what I needed.
I don't disagree that all ranges need to be addressed. Just don't assume they are not.
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Jame you did not read my post. I was not addressing her. I specifically said, MJS I know your train bjj, this is for those that don't..
Why did you skip that? Lastly I am not that little troll Hanzou. I am not attacking TMA. I merely stated that they need to start realistically addressing the basic ground positions so that its practitioners don't end up like fish out of water should they happen to fall down in a street altercation. I never once said they needed to add the entirety of bjj to the tma..
I am not assuming that all ranges are not addressed. You pointed out UFC 1. Guess what that proved that karate and tkd don't address the ground range. In my quest to find a good martial art to join since my mma gym died, I have visited just about every quality TMA in my area, and for a fact none of them did any ground survival. Sorry Your dojo may address it, but it is in the minority.
Yes some Maist do cross train, but a hell of a lot of them don't. That is why it needs to be addressed in there main class. Not all people have the luxury of training in more then one place.
Why did you skip that? Lastly I am not that little troll Hanzou. I am not attacking TMA. I merely stated that they need to start realistically addressing the basic ground positions so that its practitioners don't end up like fish out of water should they happen to fall down in a street altercation. I never once said they needed to add the entirety of bjj to the tma..
I am not assuming that all ranges are not addressed. You pointed out UFC 1. Guess what that proved that karate and tkd don't address the ground range. In my quest to find a good martial art to join since my mma gym died, I have visited just about every quality TMA in my area, and for a fact none of them did any ground survival. Sorry Your dojo may address it, but it is in the minority.
Yes some Maist do cross train, but a hell of a lot of them don't. That is why it needs to be addressed in there main class. Not all people have the luxury of training in more then one place.
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