I must confess. I find his argument compelling.
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MMA vs TMA
- Thread starter Mr. President
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If you think about it many traditional martial arts are mixed martial arts in a way. Take Taekwondo for example - it is a mixture of Taekkyon and Shotokan Karate and a little bit of Hapkido, boxing and judo here and there. Many schools have instructors and students who started in other martial arts previously and have incorporated it into what they teach and learn. The line between TMA and MMA is a blurry one.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Hehe - You should go make a thread about that in the TKD forum
Good idea although I might start one like it in the general martial arts section to get a wider perspective of what other traditional martial arts are a mix of.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
The first punch has been thrown! :cheers:
Now i can wait for the japanese martial arts people to talk about Shotokan and Judo
Will we get a counterpuncher or a harder punch? Time will tell!
PS: I fully intend to commentate this if it develops.
The first punch has been thrown! :cheers:
Now i can wait for the japanese martial arts people to talk about Shotokan and Judo
Will we get a counterpuncher or a harder punch? Time will tell!
PS: I fully intend to commentate this if it develops.
Taekkyon doesn't have punches.
Cyriacus
Senior Master
Eheheh.... eheheh.
You should make a thread about that as well, while youre at it buddy
I think some practitioners kept it alive in secret.
Many Martial arts traditionally a warrior in different cultures learned a number of different arts in Japan it was quite common for samurai to learn multiple arts each dealing with a specific weapon and empty hand techniques the best studied different arts and put them together to work for them.
So is the same in many martial arts
The most important aspect as a artist is your heart and mind. Yes if you don't throw a committed attack your wasting your time and your partners its stupid to do this in more advanced levels sure start out slow and stop when learning the forms but once you have a good grasp one should throw more realistic attacks in order to push them selves further.
How many people attend dojo's think like a warrior? Not all do. A lot of people don't know how to take a good hit and keep moving this is something that MMA excels in most people train in martial arts but then neglect their physical fitness and constantly put trash in their bodies this is a mistake.
A good warrior is one who trains in an art they are passionate in puts their ego aside and seeks to learn things from other arts and incorporate it into themselves training as their life depends on it for it very well could.
The world of real martial arts is that of hard work dedication relaxation paying attention to your surroundings your senses your opponent and accepting you could still be killed because no matter how good you are this is a harsh reality of real martial arts. And its not for everyone if you don't live and train as a warrior don't think you can defend yourself.
I respect my MMA brothers who dedicate themselves to what they love and push themselves hard and if i want to know something about ground and pound i study with them to know better how to get off of the ground. I love my TMA brothers who train hard for the art they are passionate in. Many good warriors in both worlds. But anyone who argues about an art being superior to another or MMA being better than TMA or TMA being better than MMA is a foolish person who has a small mind and has not faced any real dangers they should shut up and go train
Just my thoughts
So is the same in many martial arts
The most important aspect as a artist is your heart and mind. Yes if you don't throw a committed attack your wasting your time and your partners its stupid to do this in more advanced levels sure start out slow and stop when learning the forms but once you have a good grasp one should throw more realistic attacks in order to push them selves further.How many people attend dojo's think like a warrior? Not all do. A lot of people don't know how to take a good hit and keep moving this is something that MMA excels in most people train in martial arts but then neglect their physical fitness and constantly put trash in their bodies this is a mistake.
A good warrior is one who trains in an art they are passionate in puts their ego aside and seeks to learn things from other arts and incorporate it into themselves training as their life depends on it for it very well could.
The world of real martial arts is that of hard work dedication relaxation paying attention to your surroundings your senses your opponent and accepting you could still be killed because no matter how good you are this is a harsh reality of real martial arts. And its not for everyone if you don't live and train as a warrior don't think you can defend yourself.
I respect my MMA brothers who dedicate themselves to what they love and push themselves hard and if i want to know something about ground and pound i study with them to know better how to get off of the ground. I love my TMA brothers who train hard for the art they are passionate in. Many good warriors in both worlds. But anyone who argues about an art being superior to another or MMA being better than TMA or TMA being better than MMA is a foolish person who has a small mind and has not faced any real dangers they should shut up and go train
Just my thoughts
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Kinda besides the point, but... no. That's not actually accurate at all.
Ok that kind of reply annoys me, and you do it frequently. Its like the drive by media and just as infuriating. You don't think it is accurate yet failed to provide any reasons why it is inaccurate. It makes trying to have a dialog with you difficult, as it takes many posts to finally get you to say something that actually informs people.
Dosent change the fact that he is correct. Unarmed fighting is a separate skillset then armed fighting, hence it is 2 separate arts. Some martial systems teach both a weapon(s if their tradition dictates more then 1) and a unarmed system. I believe it is 1 system with multiple arts contained in it. Things taught in sword class will not nessessarily transfer over to spear class and to unarmed class..
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
The reason I didn't expand was that, well, it was incorrect. Obviously that implies that it wasn't "common for samurai to learn multiple arts each dealing with a specific weapon and empty hand techniques and put them together to work for them". Do we need more than that? Did we need me to list the way martial arts developed in Japan, how the samurai trained, under what circumstances they trained in different arts (because it wasn't for the reasons given, nor was that a truly advisable approach) and when (it was far from across the board, and we're dealing with 1,000 years of history here)? Did you need me to cover what a sogo bujutsu ryu-ha is, or why they work the way they do? Did you need me to describe the way they are designed, as your take on it is also similarly flawed? Absolutely what is taught in one area transfers over to others, that's kinda the point of them... really, you're out of your depth here.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Ignoring for a moment that I can't prove a negative, there's a number of things to understand. First is that samurai were in the employ of various Lords (Daimyo). They were, therefore, only able to train in arts that were allowed by the lord themselves... in some cases, that would be very limited (most notably to what were called Otomo Ryu, or "house schools"). Additionally, in many cases (particularly during the more war-ridden times in Japanese history), many, if not most arts were what were called Sogo Bujutsu... these were "comprehensive schools", which taught a syllabus comprising of multiple disciplines, so there was no need to go around learning sword from one person, spear from another, and so on. There's a lot more (such as what the schools were, why different arts would be trained, if at all, and so on), but that's enough for now I feel.
That brings us to the idea of Sogo Bujutsu. The way a Sogo Bujutsu school is set up is that there are certain underlying principles and concepts which are distinctive to that particular Ryu-ha. In other words, learning Katori Shinto Ryu, the Kenjutsu shares the same principles, concepts, and mechanical ideas (as much as possible) with the sojutsu, the naginatajutsu, the yawara (jujutsu), and so on and so forth. In fact, it's this very fact that it all matches itself that makes it work... taking X-Ryu kenjutsu and Y-Ryu Sojutsu and trying to put them together doesn't work at all... a warrior class who depended upon skills learnt for survival would never actually try it, as it'd be suicide.
From there, I'm going to highlight some details of each of your videos, as the simple selection given here shows a lack of experience, which is honestly part of what I meant when I said you were out of your depth here. I'm always open to being asked for clarification of anything I say, but arguing with me when you aren't aware of what you're talking about yourself is, well, not such a good idea.
These guys have no actual training in Sojutsu, and barely any in most other things. The clip is filled with huge numbers of flaws, stemming from both a lack of experience as well as a lack of understanding, and incorrect assumptions based on compromised weapons being used. To read more about this clip (and these persons), see here: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97845
While this is a Bujinkan group, exactly where the Sojutsu comes from is a question... the most likely candidate is that this is an approach created by Takamatsu, based on Bojutsu (which is kinda backwards to most). There's only one system I've come across that looks similar to the Bujinkan's form, which is Saburi Ryu... a much later development.
Again, this is a fake group. The Ogawa Ryu is a fraudulent "system" created in Brazil about 25 years ago by mimicking what they thought Koryu did, and missing some vital aspects.
In other words, none of these are good examples of Sojutsu, nor do any show a real contrast with any other weapon forms.
Say... here's a few clips that show sogo bujutsu, including a range of methods:
Here, you can see the connection between the Jujutsu and the weapon arts.
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
I saw it. The last post was more to improve your knowledge than anything else. There was no malice (believe me, you'd have seen it if it was there, ha!).
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