MMA vs TMA
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ballen0351
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That's not self defense. Hugging a kid on the ground isn't self defense. Me restraining someone isn't self defense. Its far from it. Its use of force issues and using the least amount of force I can to get the reaction I want. Self defense is well defending yourself or others. That's someone actively trying to harm you. Some drunk friend acting like a jerk hardly qualifies in my book.
Perhaps you misread what I wrote. I said the rules limit Karate in the cage. For competiition each one of them are great as long as you follow the rules set for each style meaning put a BJJ guy in a boxing match he will get killed. Put a boxer in a grappling tourny he will get crushed. For example we train a specific Bunkai from a Kara how to defend a single leg takedown. That involves boxing the ears. That's illegal in the ring so your limiting that styles effectiveness in the ring. Its not that it's "too deadly". Its just against the rules.
They evolved into styles like Goju Isshin Ryu ect so to say they don't work would mean all styles created from them don't work.
You think? So everyone that trains in BJJ competes? If there are 10 BJJ mcdojos in your area and you all suck how do you know?
I wouldnt have used it as an example if it was legit
Ive never heard any legit Martial artist say they are too deadly. I hear it alot from people talking down Karate. Something being against the rules doesnt =too deadly
Koshiki
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If I may politely add my interpretation of the "TMA" not-for-competition side.
I believe what is being said is (or should) not that a traditional stylist cannot redirect targeting of strikes. Of course elbows can be re-targeted from temples to jaws, and back again. I doubt there are many traditional martial artists who practice temple, groin, and eye strikes, but not jaw, rib, and thigh strikes.
Here's the thing, though. If a MMArtist trains primarily low kicks to the thighs, shins, areas which hurt like crap and reduce the opponent's ability, then they are going to be exceptionally skilled at these things. For the SD focused TMArtist, perhaps he doesn't train kicks to the thigh, he trains stomp kicks against the joint of the knee, and stomp kicks to the foot, techniques which end a fight swiftly by enabling you to walk away from the crippled adversary. I'm a bit blurry on the MMA rules, but as I recall, neither of these is allowed, yes? So the TMArtist's primary training is not allowed, and he must try to use MMA style kicks, which he does not train for. Yes, he can re-target a bit, but a stomp kick to the thigh is much less practical than one which hyper-extends the knee backwards, and so his low kicks become generally ineffective. In the ring.
Another example, the MMArtist practices arm bars, which are an excellent way to subdue and control an aggressor. The TMArtist probably spends more time on arm breaks, not bars. The kind where you don't gain complete control of the arm, you just violently hyper-extend the elbow. You can't do this kind of technique in a controlled, subduing manner, it just doesn't work. It's a snap-crunch, ouch, not a hold, press, control. Completely different technique. But the TMArtist cannot do these in the sport arena, so here again, his primary training is rendered useless. He can try to use the elbow snaps as arm bars and controls, but that's not what they are, not how they were designed, and they won't really work.
The MMArtist may train large joint manipulations, of the arm, of the knee, which are great for grappling and controlling an opponent. The TMArtist might instead train small joint manipulations, which inflict huge deals of pain, and are also great for controlling, but which are very likely to cause destructive long term injury, and so are banned from competition. Again, he could try to re-work his small joint manipulation into large joint, but he will be at a disadvantage. The MMArtist trains large joint primarily, and can use all his training. The TMArtist may train small joint primarily, but he cannot use this training.
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We know that there are techniques which can wear down or subdue your opponent, such as leg strikes, body shots, many grappling techniques, and that there techniques which will end a fight immediately, knee/arm breaks, forceful throat strikes, spine/neck/base of skull strikes, stomp kick to the groin while your opponent is splay legged on his back, ready to guard against any incoming mount, knowing his groin is safe from attack.
The techniques which it has been generally decided to wear down or subdue an opponent are allowed in MMA. Those which it has been generally decided will end immediately and/or cripple an opponent are NOT allowed in MMA. Those are the rules for MMA set down by MMA practitioners and organizers, and followed by MMArtists. They decided, for example, that a strike to the base of the skull, or an eye-gouge, or a groin kick, or a small joint manipulation is too dangerous to be used safely in a contact sport. That's right, MMA as a whole, has disavowed these techniques because they are too efficient at destroying the human body.
If we want to train MMA and include full force arm breaks, wrist twists, neck and throat strikes, foot and knee stomps, and all the rest, the sport will not be long lived, because it's practitioners will just be too hurt. It's simple. You bar an arm, your elbow feels funky for a bit. You know the place, it feels like a little half-dollar of twingy painfulness right in the inside pit. No fun. But if you allow breaking the elbow instead? Well, you'll be out of the action for a bit longer! If you want to practice the techniques which can end a fight right away, you just can't do them full force. You'll have to accept a gentler level of sparring. You just will, or you'll run out of training partners.
Which is why, when TMArtists spar and use these techniques, they can't go full force either. So, yes, you are absolutely right, when a TMArtist spars and drops an elbow down onto the cervical cortex, he does it gently, so as not to kill or cripple his friend. Point of note, most good TMArtists likely train harder contact to, in a more sport-like way, removing the more dangerous techniques, just like the MMArtist does.
Remember, it's not that there are one or two techniques that the TMArtist trains occassionally that he cannot use in the ring. It's the bulk of his training; it's the low kicks, it's the normal targeting, it's the joint locks, it's most everything. Imagine if you walked into a sport fight, and were told, "no head shots, no low kicks, no going to the ground, no elbows, and no clinching," and you then had to fight a whole bunch of opponents who hard, who train a lot, and who train nothing but what fits into THAT rule set. Suddenly, nearly all of your technique are illegal. Sure, you can choose new targets, you can use the little bit that is left of your style, but do you really think your style will hold up? Of course not, because you aren't allowed to DO your style.
I suppose that the TMArtist could jump in the ring anyway, and say, "fine, I'll just forget my style and try to do yours." Maybe he'd get lucky and not come off too badly. He'd probably lose pretty fast. Alternatively, perhaps a mid-ground could be reached, the MMArtists gets to do his safer techniques full-force, and the TMArtist can do his own techniques, but has to do them gently enough to avoid causing damage. I think it's safe to say that the MMArtist will quickly win THAT match as well.
Lastly, the TMArtist can, as you say, "self modify his 'deadly' art for the arena." To do this, he really has to drop all the nasty fight-ending techniques and pick up all the wearing-down and subduing techniques. If he successfully modify's his art for the arena, he will not be doing his art, he will be doing MMA with a background of something else. And he will likely not be as good at doing MMA as someone who primarily trains MMA.
Let's recall, one last time, why most of the techniques in many TMAs are illegal in MMA. It's because they do too much damage, because they end fights too quickly, and because they can easily cause long term or permanent destruction.
Put otherwise, TMAs teach mainly techniques that end fights as quickly as possible, generally causing serious injury. That's not what MMA is about. MMA is about wearing down, subduing, or KOing your opponent. MMA rulesets take out the techniques which are about doing large amounts of damage quickly.
In other words, the MMA ruleset says, "some techniques are too dangerous to be used in a sporting competition. These techniques are too deadly to be used in the ring."
I believe what is being said is (or should) not that a traditional stylist cannot redirect targeting of strikes. Of course elbows can be re-targeted from temples to jaws, and back again. I doubt there are many traditional martial artists who practice temple, groin, and eye strikes, but not jaw, rib, and thigh strikes.
Here's the thing, though. If a MMArtist trains primarily low kicks to the thighs, shins, areas which hurt like crap and reduce the opponent's ability, then they are going to be exceptionally skilled at these things. For the SD focused TMArtist, perhaps he doesn't train kicks to the thigh, he trains stomp kicks against the joint of the knee, and stomp kicks to the foot, techniques which end a fight swiftly by enabling you to walk away from the crippled adversary. I'm a bit blurry on the MMA rules, but as I recall, neither of these is allowed, yes? So the TMArtist's primary training is not allowed, and he must try to use MMA style kicks, which he does not train for. Yes, he can re-target a bit, but a stomp kick to the thigh is much less practical than one which hyper-extends the knee backwards, and so his low kicks become generally ineffective. In the ring.
Another example, the MMArtist practices arm bars, which are an excellent way to subdue and control an aggressor. The TMArtist probably spends more time on arm breaks, not bars. The kind where you don't gain complete control of the arm, you just violently hyper-extend the elbow. You can't do this kind of technique in a controlled, subduing manner, it just doesn't work. It's a snap-crunch, ouch, not a hold, press, control. Completely different technique. But the TMArtist cannot do these in the sport arena, so here again, his primary training is rendered useless. He can try to use the elbow snaps as arm bars and controls, but that's not what they are, not how they were designed, and they won't really work.
The MMArtist may train large joint manipulations, of the arm, of the knee, which are great for grappling and controlling an opponent. The TMArtist might instead train small joint manipulations, which inflict huge deals of pain, and are also great for controlling, but which are very likely to cause destructive long term injury, and so are banned from competition. Again, he could try to re-work his small joint manipulation into large joint, but he will be at a disadvantage. The MMArtist trains large joint primarily, and can use all his training. The TMArtist may train small joint primarily, but he cannot use this training.
-------------------
We know that there are techniques which can wear down or subdue your opponent, such as leg strikes, body shots, many grappling techniques, and that there techniques which will end a fight immediately, knee/arm breaks, forceful throat strikes, spine/neck/base of skull strikes, stomp kick to the groin while your opponent is splay legged on his back, ready to guard against any incoming mount, knowing his groin is safe from attack.
The techniques which it has been generally decided to wear down or subdue an opponent are allowed in MMA. Those which it has been generally decided will end immediately and/or cripple an opponent are NOT allowed in MMA. Those are the rules for MMA set down by MMA practitioners and organizers, and followed by MMArtists. They decided, for example, that a strike to the base of the skull, or an eye-gouge, or a groin kick, or a small joint manipulation is too dangerous to be used safely in a contact sport. That's right, MMA as a whole, has disavowed these techniques because they are too efficient at destroying the human body.
If we want to train MMA and include full force arm breaks, wrist twists, neck and throat strikes, foot and knee stomps, and all the rest, the sport will not be long lived, because it's practitioners will just be too hurt. It's simple. You bar an arm, your elbow feels funky for a bit. You know the place, it feels like a little half-dollar of twingy painfulness right in the inside pit. No fun. But if you allow breaking the elbow instead? Well, you'll be out of the action for a bit longer! If you want to practice the techniques which can end a fight right away, you just can't do them full force. You'll have to accept a gentler level of sparring. You just will, or you'll run out of training partners.
Which is why, when TMArtists spar and use these techniques, they can't go full force either. So, yes, you are absolutely right, when a TMArtist spars and drops an elbow down onto the cervical cortex, he does it gently, so as not to kill or cripple his friend. Point of note, most good TMArtists likely train harder contact to, in a more sport-like way, removing the more dangerous techniques, just like the MMArtist does.
Remember, it's not that there are one or two techniques that the TMArtist trains occassionally that he cannot use in the ring. It's the bulk of his training; it's the low kicks, it's the normal targeting, it's the joint locks, it's most everything. Imagine if you walked into a sport fight, and were told, "no head shots, no low kicks, no going to the ground, no elbows, and no clinching," and you then had to fight a whole bunch of opponents who hard, who train a lot, and who train nothing but what fits into THAT rule set. Suddenly, nearly all of your technique are illegal. Sure, you can choose new targets, you can use the little bit that is left of your style, but do you really think your style will hold up? Of course not, because you aren't allowed to DO your style.
I suppose that the TMArtist could jump in the ring anyway, and say, "fine, I'll just forget my style and try to do yours." Maybe he'd get lucky and not come off too badly. He'd probably lose pretty fast. Alternatively, perhaps a mid-ground could be reached, the MMArtists gets to do his safer techniques full-force, and the TMArtist can do his own techniques, but has to do them gently enough to avoid causing damage. I think it's safe to say that the MMArtist will quickly win THAT match as well.
Lastly, the TMArtist can, as you say, "self modify his 'deadly' art for the arena." To do this, he really has to drop all the nasty fight-ending techniques and pick up all the wearing-down and subduing techniques. If he successfully modify's his art for the arena, he will not be doing his art, he will be doing MMA with a background of something else. And he will likely not be as good at doing MMA as someone who primarily trains MMA.
Let's recall, one last time, why most of the techniques in many TMAs are illegal in MMA. It's because they do too much damage, because they end fights too quickly, and because they can easily cause long term or permanent destruction.
Put otherwise, TMAs teach mainly techniques that end fights as quickly as possible, generally causing serious injury. That's not what MMA is about. MMA is about wearing down, subduing, or KOing your opponent. MMA rulesets take out the techniques which are about doing large amounts of damage quickly.
In other words, the MMA ruleset says, "some techniques are too dangerous to be used in a sporting competition. These techniques are too deadly to be used in the ring."
Kframe
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Hanzou nice way to side step the current precarious political situation regarding contact sports. Sure you mma guys can simply learn the new rules, but that will not make the sport the same as it was. Arts like bjj might be spared most of the problems, but what if they ban the RNC or Knee bars or neck cranks? Stuff like that gets banned and youll see that stuff being dropped from the syllabus quickly. They are training for sport after all, they don't train anything they cant use in the ring/mat. I know because up until recently I trained in mma. So don't try to pass off your ignorance to me. You have already proven you know nothing of what you speak of.
Ill make it simple for you. The more rules they add to bjj or mma the more techniques will be take out or diluted. Period end of story. You wouldn't be happy with the state of cage fighting if the progressive guberment decides to double the rules. No head striking of any kind(concussions) no neck cranks or RNC, no knee bars, ect ect. That's the kinda crazy crap there trying to force on football right now. ( no more kick offs, no sacking, the eventual elimination of all tackling, not kidding on that)
Do you really think that the sport will still be the crucible of combat sports it is now, after all the BS they will subject it to? You cant honestly believe the sport would survive such mediocrity.
There is no reason for people like you to come in here and troll the tma community. TMA even the watered down ones, have proven them selvs on the street in self defense. That is the only thing that matters to those people. That does not change the fact that the mma community needs to partner up with the tma community and both advocate for all martial arts. Your doing the martial arts and mma a disservice with your comments and attitudes.
Ill make it simple for you. The more rules they add to bjj or mma the more techniques will be take out or diluted. Period end of story. You wouldn't be happy with the state of cage fighting if the progressive guberment decides to double the rules. No head striking of any kind(concussions) no neck cranks or RNC, no knee bars, ect ect. That's the kinda crazy crap there trying to force on football right now. ( no more kick offs, no sacking, the eventual elimination of all tackling, not kidding on that)
Do you really think that the sport will still be the crucible of combat sports it is now, after all the BS they will subject it to? You cant honestly believe the sport would survive such mediocrity.
There is no reason for people like you to come in here and troll the tma community. TMA even the watered down ones, have proven them selvs on the street in self defense. That is the only thing that matters to those people. That does not change the fact that the mma community needs to partner up with the tma community and both advocate for all martial arts. Your doing the martial arts and mma a disservice with your comments and attitudes.
Koshiki
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And just to clarify, I *like* MMA. I find BJJ very impressive, as is Muay Thai. I just moved to a new area, and I can't wait to go check out the MMA gym in the neighboring town. Hopefully they do a free open mat. Very exciting. But it's different. If I play MMA, if have to play MMA, I can't play the way I normally do.
ballen0351
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Perfect example I was rolling with a friend of mine. He caught me in a heel hook. Before I tapped I was able to grab his big toe and twisted it. Small joint manipulation. I'm pretty sure that's illegal but he screamed and let go of me.v I didn't do it that hard but it worked. We work on finger locks ect in my karate class. I laugh and tease him all the time that a no belt in bjj tapped him he's a purple belt. To be fair he could have destroyed me if he wanted but he wasn't going hard at all but its still Funny. Just a silly example of something I have trained that can't be used in the ring.
Hanzou
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Let me just point out that wrist locks are permitted and utilized in competitive Bjj;
http://thejiujitsulab.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/the-wristlock/
And yes, we do train them in the gym. At least where I train.
Also there's been numerous cases of competitors breaking arms in Judo and Bjj competition. One such incident took place at the Olympics;
Many schools of Judo and Bjj actively train in leg locks and breaks as well.
Further, you can kill someone with a choke hold.
If we were to bet which is more likely to happen; the traditional martial artist using some death blow to kill and assailant, or a Judoka/BJJ choking someone to death, my money is on the latter every time.
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Hanzou
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Just to clarify again, not every MMA school trains for the ring. Many MMA schools also train for self-defense purposes. Further, just because you're learning a sport, doesn't mean that the only thing you're going to be taught is the ring stuff. My school encourages competition, but we also get taught stuff that we can't use in the "ring".
I suppose we'd have to wait and see. No point in arguing a hypothetical.
I'm sorry. I thought this was the MMA section.
So, out of 30 rules for MMA, if we discard the 6 or so rules that are purely for a sporting contest that leaves 24 major options from my training that I can not utilise. At least eleven of these are in kata, and about sixteen in bunkai. That means that I am regularly training sixteen banned moves to achieve an instinctive response. Why on earth would I want to train to suppress what has taken me 30 odd years to develop.
And, I have no desire to test my skills on anyone given a choice.
:asian:
Dinkydoo
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They are doing what you have referred to several times, training for the ring. That is the main purpose of such sports whereas TMA people don't have to ever think about actually competing if they don't want to. The average kick boxer in my town has a better level of fitness and more sparring experience than your typical TMAist. More times than not if both participants put on gloves and had some friendly competition, the kick boxer would win IMO. This absolutely does not mean that these sports are better for fighting than TMA. The people training in fighting sports are much more inclined to achieve a high level of fitness because that helps them to achieve their goal of competing. A TMAist doesn't need to think about that; they might be happy enough knowing that they can perform a few swift techniques that more times than not will protect themselves against unskilled attackers. If a TMAist is going to be involved in competition then by all means they SHOULD be training at such an intensity as to prepare themselves for that, but the TMA styles are generally quite complicated that there is usually so much to cover in class that we're left with little time to focus on developing fitness - this is something that the practitioner needs to do in their own time. Add to that the massive disadvantage I face the second I put on a pair of gloves because I cannot use a whole arsenal of techniques based on or setup by grabbing and trapping, which is a huge part of one of the styles I train in, and we're beginning to compare apples to oranges. Obviously all the throat strikes and joint destruction that I've trained to instinctively respond with over the past couple of years cannot be used either in the ring; the end result is a kick boxer fighting a TMA practitioner who is forced into fighting like a kick boxer...
You've obviously not trained in a TMA for long because the Katas and form are supposed to be encyclopaedias of the techniques contained within the style; the represent the essence of the style and are designed in a way to help ingrain the key aspects of the system into muscle memory and responsiveness.
Hanzou
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How does one "actively train" to gouge out someone's eyes or stick their fingers into someone's orifice?
Also are you guys actually simulating spitting on each other during practice? No offence, but that's pretty disturbing (and disgusting).
In all seriousness, do you honestly believe a MMA practitioner wouldn't have the intelligence to modify their style for a self defense situation? It really doesn't take much brain power to bite someone, poke them in the eye, spit on someone, or pull their hair. I see kids do that to each other all the time.
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Hanzou
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I have yet to meet a boxer or kickboxer who would be unwilling to spar with open-fingered gloves.
http://www.amazon.com/Striker-Finger-Training-Boxing-Gloves/dp/B0045TJG2A
I've seen plenty of people pulling off joint manipulations, grabs, and other grappling wearing these.
You're welcome to believe that. I don't. I view them as simply a waste of time that can be better spent doing more alive training. You're spending 20 minutes of class time learning a kata, I'm spending 20 minutes of class time learning how to get my 250lb partner into a choke hold or an armbar. We simply have to agree to disagree.
Chris Parker
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Nah... let's agree you need an education.
There's a lot I'd love to go through, but in essence, you've completely and utterly misunderstood everything you're trying to talk about. It's all been covered before, so I'll leave it to you to search it out...
There's a lot I'd love to go through, but in essence, you've completely and utterly misunderstood everything you're trying to talk about. It's all been covered before, so I'll leave it to you to search it out...
Can you tell me the classic symptoms of trolling please Chris?
Dinkydoo
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Really?
Ok, show me some evidence - support your claims. Show me some examples of two competent fighters who are wearing non-restrictive gloves and where one of the fighters is TMA and the other a competition based style, and, where the TMA techniques are clearly useless against their opponent.
Your opinion on something should never exceed the knowledge you have on the subject. You think I learn the movements of a set, practice by myself and that's it..?
Practice to learn the basic technique > practice the application with a training partner > practice generating power through the technique with a some sort of resistance (heavy bag, pads..etc).
Rinse and repeat; replacing "learn" with "improve".
Mate! Don't get sucked in!
:trollsign:
ballen0351
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Actually sport BJJ guys can be at a sever disadvantage in a real fight. Actual example of a Bjj brown belt from one of the better schools in the area. A school that has trained fighters that have made it into the UFC. Got into a bar fight down town where I work not BJJ guys fault some jerk started it. The BJJ giy Had the guy all tied up the guy tapped. The Bjj guy was so set in his training as soon as the guy tapped let go. You revert to your training. As soon as he let go the guy nailedthe BJJ guy in the face broke his nose. I talked to the BJJ guy after he said he knew not to let go when the guy tapped but it was just instinct. So just training for comps can be a downfall. Now you claim your school teaches other stuff beyond the ring that's great. So does my Judo class. But a lot of top sport BJJ schools around here dont. The train to win at comps. As you said to build up a rep as a good school. So you see on their web site all the pretty trophies and medals. There is noting wrong with that.
The rest of your post of course you don't train by actually gouging out an eye or ripping off an ear. When I train as a cop I don't punch people in the face in defensive tactics but I darn sure know how to do it. I don't shoot people in training but I know I can do it in real life. When I was in the USMC I never stuck anyone with a bayonet but I trained how to do it. There are just some things you can't do in training. Even Randori is only simulated training. Your not actually trying to hurt anyone. Rolling on the mats is simulated your not hurting your partners.
You have your mind made up and that's fine. If you truly believe that no TMA has ever competed, that TMA is useless for self defense despite decades and decades of proof then so be it. Its no skin off my nose. Everyone has an opinion and you know what they say about opinions............
I just think you should open your mind a little everything isn't so black and white esp when it comes to real live fight for your life.
Hanzou
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Sounds like your friend showed the guy mercy and let him go. Its unfortunate that it was repaid with more violence. And yes, we are trained to be merciful, which is why when someone taps, we do let them go, because our goal isn't to destroy our adversary and end a life. Our goal is to redeem our adversary and preserve life. Nothing is gained by snapping a person's arm if they are no longer a threat. Nothing is to be gained by choking someone until they die just because they're drunk and acting crazy.
Ripping someone's hair out, biting someone in the neck, spiting in someone's face, blinding them with your fingers, and smashing their windpipe simply sounds barbaric compared to locking and arm, pinning a body, applying a wrist lock, or putting a ruffian to sleep.
That's budo.
That's a pretty gross misinterpretation of what I stated. I never said any of that.
Hanzou
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That would be a waste of time, because "competence" is a matter of opinion. If I showed a video of a Wing Chun practicioner getting man-handled by some random grappler, you could just say that the Wing Chun guy wasn't doing "real" Wing Chun, or whatever. Why bother?
I'm glad that you feel that you need to spend such long periods of time practising pre-arranged movements. I don't feel that way, and I've personally never seen anything positive (fighting-wise) arise from its practice. It certainly is a wonderful excercise, and in some cases they are extraordinarily lovely to watch.
Dinkydoo
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Not really, I enjoy watching good fighters from any background. It's usually quite obvious when there's a major skill mismatch in these fights anyway so I don't think it would be a pointless exercise. The burden for proof is on you by stating such strong claims.
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