MMA vs TaiChi

[Hanzou]

Well that's the thing with you there's no discussing anything. You're always right and refuse to listen to anyone else and believe you know everything and don't even try to learn anything

Well if you were paying attention, plenty of people are discussing the topic. A few individuals like yourself whining on the sidelines about how people are being big bad "meany heads" have fortunately not derailed this discussion.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

No offense, but that's a load of nonsense.

1. MMA guy's attack did showcase skill. Believe it or not, it takes skill to move forward rapidly and connect punches to a target. If you watch the video, he tagged the Tai Chi practitioner multiple times in the head, which caused the latter to fall down.

2. The idea that the CMA practitioner had more control is nonsense. He lacked the ability to counter punches, and his footwork was atrocious. He backpedaled like someone who has never been hit before. Part of body control is being able to retain your senses when the punches start flying.

3. Perhaps 99% Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight, but you would never know that from segments of the Tai Chi community who adamantly believes that they're practicing a deadly martial art.

1. It takes more skill to block or deflect a punch than to throw the punch itself. Rushing forwards throwing punches isn't going to get you anywhere against a skilled opponent. In gaming we call this kind of approach "cheesing" where you do a strategy that is in essence very counter-productive in the hopes of catching your opponent off guard. Cheese strategies are typically very easy to execute but only reliably work against inexperienced opponents. In other words, put this guy in the ring against a seasoned MMA fighter and have him try that same approach and he will land flat on his face.

2. I said the Tai Chi practitioner LIKELY has more control, since being able to perform Tai Chi typically requires good body control (of course, we don't know since we don't see him doing any of his forms). His inability to block the punches has nothing to do with his body control, but merely his lack of experience in an actual fight. You can practice the movements all you like but you won't actually learn how to block an attack until it's used against you.

3. The outspoken minority will always make fools of themselves, as showcased in this video. And again, this has nothing to do with the art itself, but a guy who hasn't trained to fight thinking he can fight. It's like if you have a person who trains Capoeira for dance, vs someone who trains Capoeira for fighting. Just because they both train the same art doesn't mean the one who trains for dancing can go into a ring and fight someone.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Except it isn't just him. That deficiency is evident in the entire system. I have yet to see any Tuishou grappling that defends against lower attacks. Tuishou appears to be designed that way, which means that its overall application for grappling is highly limited compared to other, more modern methods.

I don't know. I can't tell by looking at one person and make a blanket statement about an entire system that I don't train in. The most I can do is see how much someone understands about the techniques, by the way they perform and make an assumption if that person can fill in the gaps in his understanding, such as deny BJJ and other wrestlers, access to the waist and lower limbs. With solid understanding of a technique, a person can use the techniques that he or she already knows to accomplish the goals, (provided that they know the right technique to use).

There were probably some people in this group, who had yet to see grappling and counter grappling done in kung fu free sparring until I showed my videos. It doesn't mean that I'm the only one training like this or that there aren't any other videos like it. It just means that it's probably just the only video that others have seen.

I don't have any doubt that you see this deficiency in other students who practice Tuishou, but I can't say it's a deficiency in the system itself. At the most I would say that it's a deficiency in teaching, training, or understanding. I probably wouldn't use the word " deficiency" because it doesn't accurate describe what is really going on when people aren't able to use the techniques that they are training or if they don't understand the right approach.

Edit:

I would certainly consider the lack of kicking in boxing a deficiency in the system,

This is why I wouldn't use the word deficiency. Boxing has no kicking and kicking is not allowed by the rules. Based on the rules of Boxing, the lack of kicking doesn't make it deficient.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think we need to establish that the way a person trains is more impactful than the style they train in. I look at this fight and I see very little actual skill from the MMA guy. He literally just runs forwards throwing random punches hoping to get a hit. That takes very little skill and hell, even I could do that with no training at all. The Tai Chi practitioner more than likely has better control over their body and therefore has more skill, but the difference between them is I'm guessing that the "MMA" guy has been in a lot of fights before, while the Tai Chi guy hasn't. That difference in fighting experience is the key factor here. If the Tai Chi guy had actually trained his art with the purpose of actual fighting, the fight might have turned out completely differently. The reason why the MMA fighters say arts like Tai Chi are worthless for fighting is because 99% of Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight. If you train Tai Chi as a form of moving meditation, you can't suddenly be good at fighting with it just by stepping into the ring.

I agree with your statement about not training to fight. We can only do what we train to do. If I don't train to fight with kung fu then I shouldn't make the assumption that I can actually fight using kung fu. If I train to fight using kung fu then I can make the assumption that I can use kung fu to fight with. The truth in these statements are based completely on the training. There's good training and there's bad training. I can have assumptions about my training, thinking that it's quality "fight" training when in reality it isn't. The quality of "fight" training is going to depend on how well the person understands the fighting environment and the rules.

As for the Tai Chi guy vs MMA guy. The Tai Chi guy had horrible control, horrible root, and horrible stance. Don't defend people who claim to be Masters and yet turn out to be a poor representation of the the system that they claim to be experts of. Just accept that this guy was not good as he claimed to be.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Perhaps 99% Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight, but you would never know that from segments of the Tai Chi community who adamantly believes that they're practicing a deadly martial art.

One can practice a boxing without being a boxer. There's a difference between training boxing and training to fight with boxing. This is how it is with martial arts. It's not enough to just practice the techniques and you'll be a fighter. You actually have to practice the techniques in the context of fighting. Most importantly it has to be in the context of fighting someone outside of the system.

 

[Hanzou]

1. It takes more skill to block or deflect a punch than to throw the punch itself. Rushing forwards throwing punches isn't going to get you anywhere against a skilled opponent. In gaming we call this kind of approach "cheesing" where you do a strategy that is in essence very counter-productive in the hopes of catching your opponent off guard. Cheese strategies are typically very easy to execute but only reliably work against inexperienced opponents. In other words, put this guy in the ring against a seasoned MMA fighter and have him try that same approach and he will land flat on his face.

Yes, but since none of those punches were deflected or blocked, that point is rather irrelevant. Again, it takes skill to throw a punch while moving that is CONNECTING to its target. Additionally, this guy's opponent was skilled in his chosen martial art. The problem is that his martial arts training was insufficient for fighting against a person trying to knock his block off.

Everything else you said I agree with.

 

[Hanzou]

NYtimes story about the fight:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/world/asia/mma-martial-arts-china-tai-chi.html

So much for nobody caring about this story eh?

 

[Ironbear24]

This **** all over again.

 

[Steve]

This **** all over again.

LOL. Meaningful contribution, Ironbear24.

 

[oaktree]

So the guy lost his career and ruined his life and has to go in hiding so who really won?

I would say in the long run the mma guy lost the war even if he won the battle.

It really doesn't change anything people will still practice taijiquan and others mma these two guys will be forgotten and the vast majority never gave one ****.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Additionally, this guy's opponent was skilled in his chosen martial art.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[Hanzou]

Assumes facts not in evidence.

There's video of him doing a Tai Chi form, and he headed a documentary about Tai Chi a few years ago. From all accounts, he was pretty respected among the community......

Until he lost.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would certainly consider the lack of kicking in boxing a deficiency in the system,

NYtimes story about the fight:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/world/asia/mma-martial-arts-china-tai-chi.html

So much for nobody caring about this story eh?

lol. yep. Stuff like this have a huge effect. And the fact that the guy was a SELF PROCLAIMED Tai chi master makes no difference. Everyone keeps calling him a Tai Chi master even though it's clear that he isn't lol. Thank goodness he did this as a Master of "Thunder Style" Tai Chi. So if anyone wants to take Tai Chi, then don't take that one lol.

I'm not sure why the Chinese were offended. The Tai Chi guy didn't have to accept the challenge. This is nonsense "The state-run Chinese Wushu Association posted a statement on its website saying the fight “violates the morals of martial arts.” The Chinese Boxing Association issued similar criticism." and is what is wrong with many CMAs today. There was once a time where fights like this would have been seen as validation of a school.

As for this, "An article by Xinhua, the state news agency, called Mr. Xu a “crazy guy,” saying that the fight had caused people to question whether Chinese martial arts were of any use and even to ask, “What exactly are traditional Chinese martial arts?” China is late to the party. This is not a new question.

And this will be the death of Traditional Martial Arts in China "“The key difference between what Mr. Xu does and martial arts is that martial arts isn’t a competitive sport,’’ he said. “It’s not about really hurting. It’s about giving your opponent ‘face.’ And Mr. Xu’s style is about beating your opponent to near death.”" People keep saying this crap yet there are techniques in Traditional Martial Arts that will freaking destroy joints, ligaments, and tendons. There are even weapon forms and techniques for fighting with daggers.

Once again people defend the crap and not admit that this guy was not good at Tai Chi. Stop defending people with no skills. And then be little the martial arts by saying that Martial Arts isn't a competitive sport, especially when we see the Martial Arts sporting outlets all the time.

Before I'm was upset that the MMA guy took it as far as he did. He won, but proceeded to beat the guy. But now I'm glad he did because it highlights a bigger problem that I wasn't aware of and that's some Chinese organizations not understanding the reality of Martial Arts. Martial Arts is not about giving your opponents face ...

 

[Hanzou]

So the guy lost his career and ruined his life and has to go in hiding so who really won?

MMA won, and TMA lost. Why? Because stuff like this hastens the decline of the latter.

 

[drop bear]

1. It takes more skill to block or deflect a punch than to throw the punch itself. Rushing forwards throwing punches isn't going to get you anywhere against a skilled opponent. In gaming we call this kind of approach "cheesing" where you do a strategy that is in essence very counter-productive in the hopes of catching your opponent off guard. Cheese strategies are typically very easy to execute but only reliably work against inexperienced opponents. In other words, put this guy in the ring against a seasoned MMA fighter and have him try that same approach and he will land flat on his face.

2. I said the Tai Chi practitioner LIKELY has more control, since being able to perform Tai Chi typically requires good body control (of course, we don't know since we don't see him doing any of his forms). His inability to block the punches has nothing to do with his body control, but merely his lack of experience in an actual fight. You can practice the movements all you like but you won't actually learn how to block an attack until it's used against you.

3. The outspoken minority will always make fools of themselves, as showcased in this video. And again, this has nothing to do with the art itself, but a guy who hasn't trained to fight thinking he can fight. It's like if you have a person who trains Capoeira for dance, vs someone who trains Capoeira for fighting. Just because they both train the same art doesn't mean the one who trains for dancing can go into a ring and fight someone.

So if you don't have an opportunity to practice fighting somewhere in your system.

Chances are you will not be very good at it. And never know untill you have to use it.

 

[drop bear]

So the guy lost his career and ruined his life and has to go in hiding so who really won?

I would say in the long run the mma guy lost the war even if he won the battle.

It really doesn't change anything people will still practice taijiquan and others mma these two guys will be forgotten and the vast majority never gave one ****.

Good training won?

Look up the Art jimmerson. (probably misspelled that) story.

Anyway it was one of the early UFC guys who got flogged.

Came back 20 years later and won a MMA fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So the guy lost his career and ruined his life and has to go in hiding so who really won?

I would say in the long run the mma guy lost the war even if he won the battle.

It really doesn't change anything people will still practice taijiquan and others mma these two guys will be forgotten and the vast majority never gave one ****.

The only people who won't care are those who practice Taijiquan for health benefits and not for fighting. As for other martial artists who train Taijiquan for fighting and self-defense, they will care; especially if they teach it to make a living and their main customers are those who want to learn self-defense.

The only thing that the MMA guy did was to beat the man down. Literally. Once the man was on the ground and it was clear that he won, he should have stopped punching. The MMA guy couldn't recognized his dominance and that's what screwed him up, and not the fact that he won. This is simply a case of winning with honor vs winning as a bully. No one likes bullies and that's how his win came across. The proper protocol was to beat the guy up, help him up, shake his hand, and then send him on his way. Then when you get home have a big party and talk about how you stomped him into the ground. lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There's video of him doing a Tai Chi form, and he headed a documentary about Tai Chi a few years ago. From all accounts, he was pretty respected among the community......

Until he lost.

Doing a Tai Chi form does not mean you are a skilled fighter. You driving a car doesn't mean that you are a skilled race car driver. I thought we covered this in past conversations on Form vs Application.

 

[Hanzou]

Doing a Tai Chi form does not mean you are a skilled fighter. You driving a car doesn't mean that you are a skilled race car driver. I thought we covered this in past conversations on Form vs Application.

Well, I never said he was a skilled fighter, I was simply saying he was skilled. It takes skill to perform a kata the way he did. I certainly don't have that level of skill. Then again, I never was very good at kata/forms.

Not surprisingly, I suck at dancing as well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well, I never said he was a skilled fighter, I was simply saying he was skilled. It takes skill to perform a kata the way he did. I certainly don't have that level of skill. Then again, I never was very good at kata/forms.

Not surprisingly, I suck at dancing as well.

Ok. I see where you are coming from.