MMA vs TaiChi

[JowGaWolf]

Here's what happens when they go up against a competent grappler;

What I saw looked really good considering what we were watching. The way the other grappler was flying around speaks of valid techniques.

As for the takedowns, those same are the same things that happens when Grapplers go against each other. I didn't see anything that would be considered as one system being better than the other.
For example

 

[Hanzou]

No disrespect

but the throws at 48 seconds and 1.18 looked fake to me. Big guy just intentionally goes down. Is that just me?

FWIW the the throws in the 1st video looked more real.

That would be because it is fake. The big guy is the thrower's student.

 

[Hanzou]

What I saw looked really good considering what we were watching. The way the other grappler was flying around speaks of valid techniques.

As for the takedowns, those same are the same things that happens when Grapplers go against each other. I didn't see anything that would be considered as one system being better than the other.
For example

Because one grappler defends against and understands grappling below the waist, and one doesn't. It shows a deficiency in training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because one grappler defends against and understands grappling below the waist, and one doesn't. It shows a deficiency in training.

I don't know if it's a deficiency in training or a deficiency in understanding. The reason I say this is because of how the low horse stance is viewed by some of the Jow Ga practitioners at my school. Here's the example:
All Jow Ga students are taught to practice a good low stance where the legs don't bend less than 90 degrees. We train this. However, I'm the only one who believes that Kung fu actually uses the low stance in fighting. My belief in this is because I have used the low stance successfully multiple times. The other instructor believes that I'm mistaken. The deficiency in this case was not in training, it was in understanding. I understand the low stance in a different light than what the other instructor sees it as. Even though we both train it, one instructor understands it and the other does not.

I see the low stance as functional but the other instructor sees the low stance only as something to make the legs strong. Once the Taijichuan guy understands the risks of having someone get under him, then some of the other things that he has been training will make better sense.

 

[Steve]

In the case of Tai Chi, it's the fighter not the system. Most people know Tai Chi for being exercise and not actually a fighting system. Most people practice Tai Chi as an exercise and not as a fighting system. It's not enough to just do the forms to be able to use it in competition or for self defense.

If only there were a relatively safe way for a martial artist of any style to see how well their individual skill level and technical abilities work under pressure.

Seriously, do you guys not appreciate how quickly and definitively we can assess the skill level of the guy in the video based on a very brief video of him under pressure? It's right there guys.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Seriously, do you guys not appreciate how quickly and definitively we can assess the skill level of the guy in the video based on a very brief video of him under pressure? It's right there guys.

I don't it. I can see the truth in the videos. My comments about most people only practice Tai Chi as an exercise and not a fighting system is accurate. This is the norm for most martial arts out there. It's not a put down it's just a reality that reflects that not everyone wants to learn how to fight. On any given day you'll find more people taking fitness martial arts than you will find someone training it with a focus on self defense.

I can only dream about getting this many people into a Jow Ga class

 

[TSDTexan]

before we continue this we may want to review some MT rules

1.10.2 No Art bashing.

No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.

Heresy: Sinanju has no weaknesses.

 

[TSDTexan]

My two cents - I like doing Tai-Chi a helluva lot more than I like doing MMA.

Me too... hurts less.

 

[Steve]

I don't it. I can see the truth in the videos. My comments about most people only practice Tai Chi as an exercise and not a fighting system is accurate. This is the norm for most martial arts out there. It's not a put down it's just a reality that reflects that not everyone wants to learn how to fight. On any given day you'll find more people taking fitness martial arts than you will find someone training it with a focus on self defense.

I can only dream about getting this many people into a Jow Ga class

No, sorry. I'm not being clear. I agree with you. My second comment was to the group at large. Dan T earlier very quickly identified several issues with this guy's technique. In every competition video that is posted, people very quickly and easily identify what is good and/or bad about the folks in the video. It's easy to do because they are executing technique under real pressure. And yet, many of those same folks deride competition as an effective means of testing and measuring proficiency. It's a funny (odd) disconnect.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know if it's a deficiency in training or a deficiency in understanding. The reason I say this is because of how the low horse stance is viewed by some of the Jow Ga practitioners at my school. Here's the example:
All Jow Ga students are taught to practice a good low stance where the legs don't bend less than 90 degrees. We train this. However, I'm the only one who believes that Kung fu actually uses the low stance in fighting. My belief in this is because I have used the low stance successfully multiple times. The other instructor believes that I'm mistaken. The deficiency in this case was not in training, it was in understanding. I understand the low stance in a different light than what the other instructor sees it as. Even though we both train it, one instructor understands it and the other does not.

I see the low stance as functional but the other instructor sees the low stance only as something to make the legs strong. Once the Taijichuan guy understands the risks of having someone get under him, then some of the other things that he has been training will make better sense.

Except it isn't just him. That deficiency is evident in the entire system. I have yet to see any Tuishou grappling that defends against lower attacks. Tuishou appears to be designed that way, which means that its overall application for grappling is highly limited compared to other, more modern methods.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

The backstory is that prior to the bout, MMA fighter Xu had criticized traditional martial arts for being outdated and “a lie” without combat purposes, strongly insulting Tai-Chi in particular. In response Wei challenged him to a duel. The stage was set in Chengdu, China in front of a large crowd with a referee and MC.

It ends the way you expect.

My question is this; Are internal styles like TaiChi really for fighting, or are they actually just a form of moving meditation? Also, what's going on with all of these new vids of softer styles trying to fight with MMA guys?

I think we need to establish that the way a person trains is more impactful than the style they train in. I look at this fight and I see very little actual skill from the MMA guy. He literally just runs forwards throwing random punches hoping to get a hit. That takes very little skill and hell, even I could do that with no training at all. The Tai Chi practitioner more than likely has better control over their body and therefore has more skill, but the difference between them is I'm guessing that the "MMA" guy has been in a lot of fights before, while the Tai Chi guy hasn't. That difference in fighting experience is the key factor here. If the Tai Chi guy had actually trained his art with the purpose of actual fighting, the fight might have turned out completely differently. The reason why the MMA fighters say arts like Tai Chi are worthless for fighting is because 99% of Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight. If you train Tai Chi as a form of moving meditation, you can't suddenly be good at fighting with it just by stepping into the ring.

 

[Hanzou]

I think we need to establish that the way a person trains is more impactful than the style they train in. I look at this fight and I see very little actual skill from the MMA guy. He literally just runs forwards throwing random punches hoping to get a hit. That takes very little skill and hell, even I could do that with no training at all. The Tai Chi practitioner more than likely has better control over their body and therefore has more skill, but the difference between them is I'm guessing that the "MMA" guy has been in a lot of fights before, while the Tai Chi guy hasn't. That difference in fighting experience is the key factor here. If the Tai Chi guy had actually trained his art with the purpose of actual fighting, the fight might have turned out completely differently. The reason why the MMA fighters say arts like Tai Chi are worthless for fighting is because 99% of Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight. If you train Tai Chi as a form of moving meditation, you can't suddenly be good at fighting with it just by stepping into the ring.

No offense, but that's a load of nonsense.

1. MMA guy's attack did showcase skill. Believe it or not, it takes skill to move forward rapidly and connect punches to a target. If you watch the video, he tagged the Tai Chi practitioner multiple times in the head, which caused the latter to fall down.

2. The idea that the CMA practitioner had more control is nonsense. He lacked the ability to counter punches, and his footwork was atrocious. He backpedaled like someone who has never been hit before. Part of body control is being able to retain your senses when the punches start flying.

3. Perhaps 99% Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight, but you would never know that from segments of the Tai Chi community who adamantly believes that they're practicing a deadly martial art.

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps 99% Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight, but you would never know that from segments of the Tai Chi community who adamantly believes that they're practicing a deadly martial art.

This may or may not be true but quite honestly does it matter to the rest of us? I don't think it does, if these people think they are deadly and they're not then it's on their heads, if they are deadly they don't seem to be going around attacking people so it's not a problem anywhere.
I think people enjoy finding martial arts they can criticise, makes them feel all warm and fuzzy when they think they see people failing, one thing to remember though, blowing out other people's candles does not make your shine more, there's always those candles that will burn brighter than yours because they are true to themselves and don't give a stuff what others do, make your way to them, join your candle to them and we all benefit.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

We've already seen this.

Here's what happens when they go up against a competent grappler;

That form of grappling is simply lacking compared to where grappling currently is within the sphere of modern submission grappling.

I thought the Chen guy did fine. Was he as good as Marcelo Garcia? Nope. But neither are you or I or anyone else on this forum. The fact that he was able to do as well as he did shows that he is a solidly competent standup grappler.

Bear in mind that the talent pool for guys playing competitive Chen style competitive tuishou is probably much smaller than that of people practicing competitive BJJ, so statistically speaking you are less likely to find monsters like MG.

Except it isn't just him. That deficiency is evident in the entire system. I have yet to see any Tuishou grappling that defends against lower attacks. Tuishou appears to be designed that way, which means that its overall application for grappling is highly limited compared to other, more modern methods.

Eh, I'd say this approach to tuishou seem comparable to Greco-Roman Wrestlng, which also doesn't have leg attacks. (As mentioned before, the talent pool is smaller, so there probably isn't any Chen equivalent to Alexandr Karelin.) Are Greco-Roman and Tuishou may not be as "complete" or "broad" as BJJ or Catch Wrestling, but there are advantages to specialization. I don't go around bashing Boxing for not having kicks or BJJ for not having knife skills or Muay Thai for not having chokes. I just look to learn what I can from the folks who have spent time delving into a specialized area.

 

[Headhunter]

At the end of the day no matter his skill at least he stepped up and fought...tell me op what's your fight record where's the videos of your fights? Maybe instead of acting all so superior maybe realise that this guy had the guts to test himself

 

[Hanzou]

This may or may not be true but quite honestly does it matter to the rest of us? I don't think it does, if these people think they are deadly and they're not then it's on their heads, if they are deadly they don't seem to be going around attacking people so it's not a problem anywhere.

Of course it matters. If we have a martial art that is making claims that aren't substantiated, I'm not seeing the issue reporting when it is exposed. Further, a vast swath of people find this sort of thing interesting, hence why it's being reported all over the net and in China.

If you dislike this, no one is forcing you to respond to the thread.

 

[Headhunter]

Of course it matters. If we have a martial art that is making claims that aren't substantiated, I'm not seeing the issue reporting when it is exposed. Further, a vast swath of people find this sort of thing interesting, hence why it's being reported all over the net and in China.

If you dislike this, no one is forcing you to respond to the thread.

Yeah just like those irritating nosy neighbours who spend all their time looking out the window waiting for their neighbour to do something wrong so they can report it..or someone who watches tv to make complaints about it....you fit that description perfectly.

In my opinion if someone has time to go around cristising other people's choices then their life must be very boring and empty

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah just like those irritating nosy neighbours who spend all their time looking out the window waiting for their neighbour to do something wrong so they can report it..or someone who watches tv to make complaints about it....you fit that description perfectly.

In my opinion if someone has time to go around cristising other people's choices then their life must be very boring and empty

I'm always curious about people who sit in discussion boards and complain about the topic being discussed in individual threads. If you don't like this topic, why are you wasting your time in this thread? There's plenty of other topics for you to discuss on this forum.

 

[Headhunter]

I'm always curious about people who sit in discussion boards and complain about the topic being discussed in individual threads. If you don't like this topic, why are you wasting your time in this thread? There's plenty of other topics for you to discuss on this forum.

Well that's the thing with you there's no discussing anything. You're always right and refuse to listen to anyone else and believe you know everything and don't even try to learn anything

 

[Hanzou]

I thought the Chen guy did fine. Was he as good as Marcelo Garcia? Nope. But neither are you or I or anyone else on this forum. The fact that he was able to do as well as he did shows that he is a solidly competent standup grappler.

Bear in mind that the talent pool for guys playing competitive Chen style competitive tuishou is probably much smaller than that of people practicing competitive BJJ, so statistically speaking you are less likely to find monsters like MG.


Eh, I'd say this approach to tuishou seem comparable to Greco-Roman Wrestlng, which also doesn't have leg attacks. (As mentioned before, the talent pool is smaller, so there probably isn't any Chen equivalent to Alexandr Karelin.) Are Greco-Roman and Tuishou may not be as "complete" or "broad" as BJJ or Catch Wrestling, but there are advantages to specialization. I don't go around bashing Boxing for not having kicks or BJJ for not having knife skills or Muay Thai for not having chokes. I just look to learn what I can from the folks who have spent time delving into a specialized area.

Well keep in mind, my post was in response to another post showcasing a fraudulent sparring match between Tuishou and wrestling, and my second response was in response to a poster who claimed that what occurred in my video is what typically happens between two grapplers from the same style are in a physical contest.

I would certainly consider the lack of kicking in boxing a deficiency in the system, as are the lack of chokes in Muay Thai, and the lack of striking is a deficiency in Bjj. No martial art is perfect.

Which is why we cross train.