MMA-trained delinquents beat a kid to death

[Deleted member 39746]

I agree. The only issue I have is with teaching certain chokes in such a public way. Some of the chokes from submission grappling are disgustingly simple to pull off once you have positional dominance. Further, unlike headlocks and the 10 finger choke favored by rapists and thugs, submission grappling chokes are a lot harder to counter.

doesnt the one/two handed grab the throat choke work pretty well? Thats pretty much innate in some peoples nature. i obviously mean if you have no idea how to break the grip it does.


Also thinking about the general topic, Karate was banned in the USSR one down to comeption with samo, two because it was associated with criminal entities and 3 i think some karate people now and then fought police. (technically falls under criminal association) It was only banned for i think best 2 decades. And from the article i found on it, it was pretty much legit karate for maiming people.
(espcially after it got pushed underground/was used by criminal entitites)

Pretty sure Russia did Sambo the same way the U.S does wrestling as well, so there is a good chance a lot of people at least did some grapiling in school and know the basics, so could adapt that to fighting, alongside conscription that happened which meant the bulk of people got military training as well.


If i recall my countries history, they used to let you have boxing duels in school, and when it was being removed they used to give you a caning to deter it. until they edventually removed it. Over the course of the 1900's it was removed. That is also argubly safer than "street" fights, down to a safety net and it being at least organised properly. these things generally got removed during the civililising of places, thats why dueling was banned and the like as well.

Plus if you teach people to do it right, then everyone who has learnt to defend against someone doing it right has a chance.

 

[Hanzou]

doesnt the one/two handed grab the throat choke work pretty well? Thats pretty much innate in some peoples nature. i obviously mean if you have no idea how to break the grip it does.

The two-handed grab the throat choke works if the person has absolutely no clue how to break it, but it's VERY easy to break if you know how. There's also a pretty broad set of counters to it. I could teach someone how to break that choke in one class.

Rear Naked Chokes, Guillotines, Head and Arm chokes, etc. are a completely different ballgame since they're far more effective, are typically applied within a structure of positional dominance, and cut oxygen off far more quickly. They take a lot of practice to learn how to counter, and in certain positions only specific counters work. Even with all of my experience, if someone slaps a guillotine choke on me, I only have a few seconds to react, and if I don't apply the correct counter in the correct way, I'm going to sleep.

Also thinking about the general topic, Karate was banned in the USSR one down to comeption with samo, two because it was associated with criminal entities and 3 i think some karate people now and then fought police. (technically falls under criminal association) It was only banned for i think best 2 decades. And from the article i found on it, it was pretty much legit karate for maiming people.
(espcially after it got pushed underground/was used by criminal entitites)

Pretty sure Russia did Sambo the same way the U.S does wrestling as well, so there is a good chance a lot of people at least did some grapiling in school and know the basics, so could adapt that to fighting, alongside conscription that happened which meant the bulk of people got military training as well.


If i recall my countries history, they used to let you have boxing duels in school, and when it was being removed they used to give you a caning to deter it. until they edventually removed it. Over the course of the 1900's it was removed. That is also argubly safer than "street" fights, down to a safety net and it being at least organised properly. these things generally got removed during the civililising of places, thats why dueling was banned and the like as well.

Plus if you teach people to do it right, then everyone who has learnt to defend against someone doing it right has a chance.

No argument there. If the genie's out of the bottle, I suppose the best course of action is to give everyone lamps. I'm still concerned about teens learning how to essentially kill someone with their bare hands.

 

[jayoliver00]

I was reading the news and I read a story that troubled me as a martial artist. In Colleferro, near Rome (Italy), 21 year-old Willy Monteiro Duarte was killed trying to stop a fight involving another 21 y.o. against brothers Marco, 26, and Gabriele Bianchi, 24, Mario Pincarelli, 22, Francesco Belleggia, 21, and another man. The five of them beat up Willy, who was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground. A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media. The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.

This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion. Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy". Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life. I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation. It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?

Looks like they took the advice of many TMA and RBSD people with their anything goes for the street Larping.

 

[Martial D]

I get a little upset when I read things like what happened in the first post. Maybe I'm just too sensitive, I don't know.

I don't know if "anybody should be allowed to train". When I ran my old dojo, which lasted many years, prospective students had to fill out an application that was five pages long and asked a lot of questions. Some people told me I had no right to ask those questions. I informed them it was a private club, but you didn't really have to answer them. Then I pointed to the door. I'd do it in a nice way, but that's how I did it.

It was a city school and the majority of students were young men. It let them know exactly what they would be dealing with, and what they were getting their young ashes into. All police, firefighters, EMTs and emergency workers trained for free. Most single parent families did as well. And we kind of had a reputation for helping, shy, awkward kids. Everybody took them under their wings.

As for bad apples....I always did like making applesauce.

Old post, but a thought...
Criminals will use whatever force multiplier they find useful or effective.

In the same sense they can pick up a knife or a gun, they will use whatever physical advantages they can get. Alive styles of martial arts will of course fall under this heading.

Attempts to gatekeep skillsets behind abstract concepts such as honor or respect while admirable, will always be doomed to fail.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I think, if nothing else, it's a cautionary tale to never assume your opponent knows less than you.

True statement, but considering that it was five on one, the result would've been the same by untrained guys if that was their intent.

My takeaway is not to rely on martial arts training alone, if you're in a place where it's legal to carry a firearm.

 

[Buka]

Old post, but a thought...
Criminals will use whatever force multiplier they find useful or effective.

In the same sense they can pick up a knife or a gun, they will use whatever physical advantages they can get. Alive styles of martial arts will of course fall under this heading.

Attempts to gatekeep skillsets behind abstract concepts such as honor or respect while admirable, will always be doomed to fail.

Most times maybe, but not always. I grew up in the projects, as did some of my old students. We can pretty much sense a sheet heel a mile away. Besides, I never found the criminal element could withstand hard core, disciplined training. If they could, they wouldn't be criminals in my opinion.

And to me, "honor and respect" are not abstract concepts. They are very real. That might sound all hunky dory and Kumbaya-ish, but the children of my old students, and their grandchildren, are taught the same manners, discipline and respect that were taught in the dojo. They write or call and remind me of this several times a year.

 

[drop bear]

Most times maybe, but not always. I grew up in the projects, as did some of my old students. We can pretty much sense a sheet heel a mile away. Besides, I never found the criminal element could withstand hard core, disciplined training. If they could, they wouldn't be criminals in my opinion.

And to me, "honor and respect" are not abstract concepts. They are very real. That might sound all hunky dory and Kumbaya-ish, but the children of my old students, and their grandchildren, are taught the same manners, discipline and respect that were taught in the dojo. They write or call and remind me of this several times a year.

This is fabian quaid. Who almost made the Olympics. And drug dealer, debt collector and gangster.

There was a whe TKD gangster thing going back in the day.

Quaid to be released from prison

HIGH-profile Perth drug trafficker Fabian Quaid is days away from tasting freedom after serving 10 years and six months behind bars.

www.perthnow.com.au

 

[Urban Trekker]

Besides, I never found the criminal element could withstand hard core, disciplined training. If they could, they wouldn't be criminals in my opinion.

I don't think we give criminals enough credit. I can tell you that in the environments that I grew up in, criminals tended to have better physiques by leaps and bounds over others. That requires some discipline right there, in terms of diet and training regimen. In addition, the life of a criminal is not a hedonistic one by any stretch of the imagination. They have to choose needs over wants just like anyone else, if not more than others, especially when their own lives are on the line because of the things they're involved in.

 

[Buka]

This is fabian quaid. Who almost made the Olympics. And drug dealer, debt collector and gangster.

There was a whe TKD gangster thing going back in the day.

Quaid to be released from prison

HIGH-profile Perth drug trafficker Fabian Quaid is days away from tasting freedom after serving 10 years and six months behind bars.

www.perthnow.com.au

He wouldn’t have had the opportunity to have joined my dojo. I was lucky enough (and it was all luck) to have had a perfect storm going. My dojo was next to the police station. All cops, as well as Firemen and EMTs trained for free. Half the drug unit trained or lifted there. They knew every dealer everywhere.

Some ex drug dealers trained there. One of our top instructors did four years in prison for breaking into a drug store in the state of Maine. When he got out, he walked into a dojo I was teaching at at the time. (This is going way back) Told me his story and said he wanted to turn his life around. And he did. Martial Arts saved his life. It literally did. Turned out to be one of the best Black Belts I ever had.

And a lot of times I ran people’s arrest records. Yeah, you weren’t supposed to, but I didn’t care. I had access. And I still don’t care. We were also lucky in that the day we opened, we already had four full time Black Belts teaching, and a half dozen part time ones. We had boxers, a couple wrestlers, some guys joined just to lift. It was a 6,000 sq ft place with a dozen bags (when they were all hung) tons of weights, chin up bars everywhere. We also had fifty students the first day we opened.

And the application to join, was just that. You were applying to join. That didn’t mean you were necessarily accepted. My place, my rules.

Drugs were all over the place back then. Bad drugs. I didn’t care if somebody smoked refer, but I did care, very much so, if they were doing other drugs. Again, my place, my rules.

This was before I became a cop. But I had been teaching at the Boston Policy Academy for some time. I knew more cops than I did karate people.

 

[Buka]

I don't think we give criminals enough credit. I can tell you that in the environments that I grew up in, criminals tended to have better physiques by leaps and bounds over others. That requires some discipline right there, in terms of diet and training regimen. In addition, the life of a criminal is not a hedonistic one by any stretch of the imagination. They have to choose needs over wants just like anyone else, if not more than others, especially when their own lives are on the line because of the things they're involved in.

I know plenty of criminals. Some of them are even friends. (Hey, it happens.)