Mma guy is excited about sparring.

[JowGaWolf]

One day when BJJ guys all train like this (a true integration of the striking art and the grappling art), I will agree wit you.

Funny that you post that because that's like a text book technique for all martial arts, depending on a person's skill level that entry can result into a bunch of different take downs and throws. I have a video of it being used on me, after I watched the video I saw that my head bounced off the ground so there's that, had it been a real fight then I might have taken an unexpected nap. In the video you can tell that I couldn't believe that I let someone get me with that ole skool take down, but yep. I got hit with it when I least expected. ha ha ha. From that day I watch for it.

 

[Alan0354]

One day when BJJ guys all train like this (a true integration of the striking art and the grappling art), I will agree with you.

The BJJ approach is to take your opponent down and then control him. The better approach is to control your opponent, take him down, and still remain that control.

Like I said, these are all monday morning quarterbacking. You think whatever you said is better, PROVE it in the octagon. You can beat BJJ, I will change my mind.

One WIN speaks a 1000 words. To me, it's so typical of CMA kept bad mouthing and got nothing to show for. GO WIN A FIGHT. Maybe you have the goods, you win a fight in the world stage, your style will be as popular like Gracie BJJ that has school ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. Don't you want that? Just beat them.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BJJ exploited the fight that TMA systems and other fighting systems fought " Style A vs Style A" BJJ didn't take this path towards their training. They often sparred against people outside of their system. As a result they knew what to expect from other systems and how that would apply to BJJ.

Yep. At the beginning of modern MMA the Gracie fighters had two main advantages:

• They had been fighting practitioners of other styles for a couple of generations. Most of their opponents did not have that sort of experience and specifically most of them didn’t have experience fighting against submission grappling on the ground.
• They had substantial experience in fighting full contact with few technical rules or restrictions (one-on-one, unarmed). Most of their opponents didn’t have that.

However, BJJ is starting to fall into the same hole that TMA is trying to climb out of. BJJ vs BJJ. Some practitioners are good when going against other BJJ but will lack the skills to go against someone outside of the system. This isn't opinion. This is an opinion stated by one of the Gracies. What was originally done as a fighting system has turned into a sport system and some of the lessons that were taught for fighting in the streets aren't being taught in the sports environment.

This varies quite a bit from school to school. Fortunately there are still plenty of BJJ schools where practitioners can get experience sparring practitioners of other arts. I do my best to make sure my students aren’t just learning the BJJ tournament game.

The following strategy has not been fully developed in BJJ training.

- Take your opponent down.
- Drop your knee/elbow on his body (such as neck, chest, groin, ...) and finish him.

As far as I know, not only BJJ doesn't train this, Judo, American wrestling also don't train this.

If you can smash your opponent's head to the ground by your neck control, and drop your knee on his chest/groin, you may not have to play ground game with him after that.

These techniques and tactics absolutely exist in BJJ (and in other forms of jujutsu). You don’t see them so often in competition because they’re hard to reliably pull off against an opponent who is close to your own skill level.

That might work, if you are better than he is. It depends. But there is an ethics problem, however. Doing something like this can lead to a real injury. Are you willing to do that to a sparring partner?

I don’t think KFW was talking so much about spiking someone onto their head with a throw as he was talking about immediately finishing someone after a throw or maintaining a control position which doesn’t require going all the way to the ground. It is possible to practice the tactics safety in sparring. It’s just difficult to do unless you have a really substantial skill advantage.

Muay Thai fighter escaped BJJ's efforts then made BJJ play the stand up game. Muay Thai guy didn't win with BJJ. At the very least he learned to escape from it. This is an example of finding a solution within one's system.

I have no idea who these guys are. Do you know that the one fellow is a BJJ guy? How good is he? What is the extent of his standup striking training? I imagine some folks here will come on and state that he isn’t very good at BJJ so, ya know, it doesn’t count…

The ”BJJ guy” is Alex Schild. He’s a solid BJJ practitioner who also has a good wrestling background and trains Muay Thai. His opponent was Yodkaikaew, a very accomplished MT fighter who also trains BJJ. In this fight, Alex’s grappling was superior to Yodkaikaew’s, but not so much that Yodkaikaew couldn’t defend and avoid submissions when the fight went to the ground. In contrast, Yodkaikaew had a substantial advantage in striking skill and athleticism while standing.

If you wanted to put it into a (completely arbitrary and subjective) numeric form:
Schild: BJJ 6, MT 4, athleticism 6 = 16
Yodkaikaew: BJJ 4, MT 9, athleticism 9 = 22
22 > 16

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Funny that you post that because that's like a text book technique for all martial arts, depending on a person's skill level that entry can result into a bunch of different take downs and throws.

The reason that I think the "front cut" should be the best bridge between the striking art and the wrestling art is:

In striking art, your arms will contact with your opponent's arms. At that moment, if you use your leg to hook his leg, he may not be able to see it since his vision may be blocked by your arms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Like I said, these are all monday morning quarterbacking. You think whatever you said is better, PROVE it in the octagon. You can beat BJJ, I will change my mind.

In MMA, you don't see this technique "outer hook" used as much as single leg or double legs. Do you think the reason is:

- It has lower successful rate?
- MMA guys don't train this technique?
- ...

There are techniques that have been used in Sanda, but have not been used in MMA yet.

 

[Alan0354]

You don't see this technique "outer hook" used as much as single leg or double legs. Do you think the reason is:

- It has lower successful rate?
- MMA guys don't train this technique?
- ...

Do you think this technique will be used more often in MMA in the next 20 years?

You ever actually watched UFC fights? This kind of take down is so common in different forms, not standing so straight, more to the mid section where it's HARDER to defend than this. If you never watch UFC fights, just go on youtube and type "MMA takedown techniques" and you will find tons of videos.

I know, you are going to say they don't do EXACTLY like you said as usual as you always talk EXACT as if you can do it to the exact way every time, or else it's different.

This is one of many videos demonstrates the technique how to SHOOT for a takedown, they go lower to make it harder to defend. I've seen they shoot and hook one leg with either the leg or with hand so many times in UFC fights.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I do my best to make sure my students aren’t just learning the BJJ tournament game.

My deepest respect to you as a fellow martial artist. My biggest fear for Martial Arts in general is that the fighting function of it will be lost. Even if the fight is rarely done, just having an understanding of how and why it works and the ability to train and work is something of historical value. Having accurate knowledge of function of a system is priceless and necessary for a complete understanding of that system.

When those important bits are omitted then it becomes like this sword. The system breaks because the little important functional things were left out.

It breaks my heart when valuable knowledge is lost or intentionally destroyed or not accurately documented. Thank you for sharing all of the knowledge with your students. Also thanks for correcting and adding information about the Muay Thai fighter that studied some BJJ. I will have to find another example.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I know, you are going to say they don't do EXACTLY like you said as usual as you always talk EXACT as if you can do it to the exact way every time, or else it's different.

C and C++ are different.

Single leg and double legs are hand skill and not leg skill. Inner hook, outer hook, front cut, leg block, ... are leg skill.

The leg skill require extra training.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In MMA, you don't see this technique "outer hook" used as much as single leg or double legs. Do you think the reason is:

- It has lower successful rate?
- MMA guys don't train this technique?
- ...

There are techniques that have been used in Sanda, but have not been used in MMA yet.

The outside hook (what I would call a Ko Soto Gari or Ko Soto Gake) was probably more prominent in the early days of MMA, when you had some fighters who only had a striking background and didn’t know how to grapple. For those kinds of opponents, if you could get a clinch with double underhooks then the outside hook/ko soto gari gave a pretty easy takedown directly into full mount.

These days every MMA fighter knows how to grapple, so it’s not so easy. They know how to keep their hips away if the opponent has a dominant clinch position and they know how to maintain good posture and fight for control in the clinch. It’s still a valid technique, but it needs more work to set up. You can’t easily just enter directly into it off of a punch against a competent opponent.

I think the most common application I see in modern MMA is when a fighter has his opponent pinned against the cage wall and the opponent is using the wall for balance to help fight the takedown. In this case the opponent can’t back their hips away and it’s sometimes possible to use a ko soto gari to gain control of a leg and spin them away from the cage into a takedown. Khabib Nurmegomedov is good at this.

 

[JowGaWolf]

At that moment, if you use your leg to hook his leg, he may not be able to see it since his vision may be blocked by your arms.

You and I are the only ones that I know that that talk about how some techniques block the vision and hides another technique. I don't hear or see many martial arts instructors talk about the concept and limitation of the field of vision as it applies to martial arts applications. Hopefully that will change in the near future.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Also thanks for correcting and adding information about the Muay Thai fighter that studied some BJJ. I will have to find another example.

It’s really hard to find any high level modern MMA fighter that hasn’t studied at least the fundamentals of boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ. Sometimes they may have a different primary striking art, like Karate, or a different primary submission grappling art, like Sambo, but they’ll generally have at least a decent grasp of the fundamentals of the big 4.

 

[Alan0354]

C and C++ are different.

Single leg and double legs are hand skill and not leg skill. Inner hook, outer hook, front cut, leg block, ... are leg skill.

The leg skill require extra training.

I rest my case.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You ever actually watched UFC fights? This kind of take down is so common in different forms, not standing so straight, more to the mid section where it's HARDER to defend than this. If you never watch UFC fights, just go on youtube and type "MMA takedown techniques" and you will find tons of videos.

I know, you are going to say they don't do EXACTLY like you said as usual as you always talk EXACT as if you can do it to the exact way every time, or else it's different.

This is one of many videos demonstrates the technique how to SHOOT for a takedown, they go lower to make it harder to defend. I've seen they shoot and hook one leg with either the leg or with hand so many times in UFC fights.

If the defender would lower his stance then the attacker will have difficulty in shooting for that leg. One of the things that's required is for the attacker to get under the defender. The defender can make this space smaller by lowering his stance.

Notice the stance height changes. It's literally the same thing I've been talking about when discussing the low horse stance. A lower stance places the hips further away from the attacker and brings the arms closer to where the legs are which allows hands and arms to help defend the legs or attack the incoming head and or force. If they do get under you while you are in a low stance, then they will not be in a position to benefit from it.

I watch UFC and the success for leg shoots are to catch your opponent standing tall and getting under them. It's sort of an universal truth that applies to all systems. The only difference is that in TMA many say the low stance isn't used, Yet other systems use low stances it. Again. System A vs System B will expose you to situations and uses for things that you may not get when training System A vs System A.

Lets see what this Wing Chun practitioner says about it. Remember. See the bigger picture.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Like I said, these are all monday morning quarterbacking. You think whatever you said is better, PROVE it in the octagon. You can beat BJJ, I will change my mind.

One WIN speaks a 1000 words. To me, it's so typical of CMA kept bad mouthing and got nothing to show for. GO WIN A FIGHT. Maybe you have the goods, you win a fight in the world stage, your style will be as popular like Gracie BJJ that has school ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. Don't you want that? Just beat them.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but you are saying this to someone who is only a few years younger than you. Nothing against John, just wanted to point that out as your argument for not doing the same is age.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It’s really hard to find any high level modern MMA fighter that hasn’t studied at least the fundamentals of boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ. Sometimes they may have a different primary striking art, like Karate, or a different primary submission grappling art, like Sambo, but they’ll generally have at least a decent grasp of the fundamentals of the big 4.

I'm going to find one ha ha ha. I believe anyone who has studied a striking system and grappling system will yield the same results. My theory is that Kung Fu has both, but most only focus on the striking. If they spent as much time in the grappling side of it, then they will get similar results. As long as the person has trained in the striking and grappling arenas, then they should be able to be effective. Oh and as long as they have sparred against boxing, muay thai, and other wrestling systems. I know there are systems with boxing like fundamentals. Like I study Jow Ga and have never trained boxing or taken anything from any boxing video except how to hit a speed bag. Other than that those Boxing fundamentals are in Jow Ga. Muay Thai like kicks are in the system, grappling is in the system. I'm only bring up Jow Ga because I know more Jow Ga than any other system. I don't think Jow Ga is so special that it's the only system that has these areas of training. It's quite the opposite. If Jow Ga has it then other systems must have it as well.

I also believe that Judo is the grappling component of Karate just like Shuai Jiao is the grappling component of Kung Fu systems. I don't think there's one culture that has a traditional fighting system that doesn't have a grappling component. From what I've read in MT. Traditional boxing use to have a grappling component.

One of the best ways to not get punched is to hold onto your opponent. This is universal. So in that light I don't think TMA can hang or defeat BJJ without their grappling component. I just don't see how that is possible. I can however see BJJ being a preference as it is the only one that focuses on using grappling against incoming strikes. Other grappling systems would need to take the same path BJJ did. System A vs System B. Grappling vs Striking. Most grappling we see today has mainly developed through Grappling vs Grappling, which to me is not the best way to develop a system that can address a variety of attacks.

Hopefully I can learn enough fast enough to be the first guy that you know who trained kung fu and Shuai Jiao and was able to be effective in defending Jow Ga. I know it will take some formal training, but that's more of a financial hurdle than anything else.

 

[Alan0354]

If the defender would lower his stance then the attacker will have difficulty in shooting for that leg. One of the things that's required is for the attacker to get under the defender. The defender can make this space smaller by lowering his stance.

Notice the stance height changes. It's literally the same thing I've been talking about when discussing the low horse stance. A lower stance places the hips further away from the attacker and brings the arms closer to where the legs are which allows hands and arms to help defend the legs or attack the incoming head and or force. If they do get under you while you are in a low stance, then they will not be in a position to benefit from it.

I watch UFC and the success for leg shoots are to catch your opponent standing tall and getting under them. It's sort of an universal truth that applies to all systems. The only difference is that in TMA many say the low stance isn't used, Yet other systems use low stances it. Again. System A vs System B will expose you to situations and uses for things that you may not get when training System A vs System A.

Lets see what this Wing Chun practitioner says about it. Remember. See the bigger picture.

I've seen too many times in UFC, they all started with striking like punch or kick so you raise your hands to block and stand up high, then they shoot low. It is very scary. It's not like they keep shooting low, that would be easy to defend. The whole thing is about combination of strikes and grapple.

I saw in UFC fights when the person shoots, the other person "sprawl" out by only the lower body jumping slightly back, both legs straight and push forward on the floor. The body is almost to 45deg with the upper body forward to resist being push back and tripped by the shooter. It is very common way of takedown defense in UFC in the older days.

I don't see as much shooting and I notice people using footwork to get away from the shoot. The footwork of MMA today is very amazing, they dance with a wider stance bouncing back and fore and moves very fast. It's a workout just dancing the footwork. But those people are so in shape they don't seems to get tire doing that.

Anyway, I am all talk also here. Too old to even get into this, or else, I would have gone learn MMA or BJJ to compliment what I learned already. Now my first priority is to get the MRI so I can make an appointment to see a specialist.

 

[Alan0354]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but you are saying this to someone who is only a few years younger than you. Nothing against John, just wanted to point that out as your argument for not doing the same is age.

I didn't mean "him" as himself, just "you" in general. Ha ha, he's older than me far as I know, he's 73 and I am 69. WE BOTH ARE OLD!!! Who's counting!!!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I didn't mean "him" as himself, just "you" in general. Ha ha, he's older than me far as I know, he's 73 and I am 69. WE BOTH ARE OLD!!! Who's counting!!!

I stand corrected haha. In my head i had your ages reversed

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

GO WIN A FIGHT.

I have competed on the mat almost all my life. Back in 1982, 1983, and 1984, I was the heavy weight US SC champions for 3 years in a row. In US SC tournament, there were a lot of American wrestlers competed. They all liked to use single leg and double legs. In 1983 US SC tournament (in Columbus, Ohio), during the championship fight, my opponent was from the Ohio State University wrestling team. He attacked me twice by using single leg. I took him down twice by "downware pulling". Both rounds lasted for less than 7 seconds. Those 2 rounds were the easiest rounds that I ever had in my life. The reason is simple. My opponent's body was so close to the ground. It didn't take me much effort to put a bit pressure on the back of his neck to drive his head into the ground.

Whe my opponnt shoots at me, if his head is

- parallel to the ground, I will press the back of his neck to the ground.
- vertical, I will push his forehead back. This add a lot of pressure on his neck.

When you use single leg and double legs, your head is exposed. That's the weakness.

If I could be 50 years younger, I would compete in UFC. I miss those tournament years a lot.

 

[Alan0354]

I have competed on the mat almost all my life. Back in 1982, 1983, and 1984, I was the heavy weight US SC champions for 3 years in a row. In US SC tournament, there were a lot of American wrestlers competed. They all liked to use single leg and double legs. In 1983 US SC tournament (in Columbus, Ohio), during the championship fight, my opponent was from the Ohio State University wrestling team. He attacked me twice by using single leg. I took him down twice by "downware pulling". Both rounds lasted for less than 7 seconds. Those 2 rounds were the easiest rounds that I ever had in my life. The reason is simple. My opponent's body was so close to the ground. It didn't take me much effort to put a bit pressure on the back of his neck to drive his head into the ground.

When you use single leg and double legs, your head is exposed. That's my main concern.

If I could be 50 years younger, I would compete in UFC.

I don't mean you, I more meant people of the style you described. If you take it I meant you, I apologize. I know we are way over the hill, I would not even imagine "you" go into the octagon.

You were heavy weight? From video I saw of you, you were very thin!!!! Unless you are very tall which won't show in video.