MMA fighter in court over one punch death.

[Steve]

The person attacked who fell might have benefitted from simple ukemi.. I think EVERYONE would benefit from having a decent ukemi ability in their repertoire.. Jx

I think knowing how to fall is a great idea, but where people are drunk, it may not help all that much. And if one is punched unconscious, even for a few seconds in what I've heard referred to as a flash knockout, no amount of technique would help as the individual is completely unresponsive for a few seconds. This is what makes these so dangerous. In a ring/cage, the ground is even and padded. You won't fall onto a curb or a rock.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, fyi people can die from being choked out as well.

You can certainly die from a chokehold that has been applied too long. You could also die from someone choking you out, and then slamming you into the ground. However, in the grand plethora of techniques, chokes are among the safest to perform, which is why we can do them full blast, choke each other out constantly, and have little to no permanent damage.

This thread is about this case where a strike hit someone and they then died. It is not about how grappling is better. It is particularly relevant to self defense training in that we can look at what happened, what led up to the violence and what could have been done differently not just by the person who will be on trial but also by the victim. What could have prevented this from happening?

Again, how is this a self defense discussion? Self defense is not getting trashed and then beating down a teenager who makes off collar remarks to your girlfriend.

It's obvious what could have prevented this from happening.

 

[Steve]

You can certainly die from a chokehold that has been applied too long. You could also die from someone choking you out, and then slamming you into the ground. However, in the grand plethora of techniques, chokes are among the safest to perform, which is why we can do them full blast, choke each other out constantly, and have little to no permanent damage.

There are legal ramifications to choking someone, and in the States, it might be harder to defend your position legally than if you punched someone. Depends upon the local laws, but we've had conversations around here regarding this. I think that blood chokes are generally safe to perform, but if someone's unconscious whether by choke or by being struck, the end result is the same. They will fall to the ground unless helped and could strike their head, which could be fatal. We've got plenty of news articles to show us that it does happen. Choke or strike, unconscious is unconscious.

Again, how is this a self defense discussion? Self defense is not getting trashed and then beating down a teenager who makes off collar remarks to your girlfriend.

It's obvious what could have prevented this from happening.

So, what would make this a self defense question. I asked earlier what could the victim have done differently. Hanzou, what do you think? Instead of hashing out the same old arguments, let's try and make this discussion useful.

I agree with you, FWIW, that the guy who punched the other guy wasn't in a self defense situation. But the victim certainly was. What's the larger lesson here? How does one intervene? Should one intervene at all? And if you do, how can you protect yourself from this?

 

[drop bear]

The person attacked who fell might have benefitted from simple ukemi.. I think EVERYONE would benefit from having a decent ukemi ability in their repertoire.. Jx

They are also putting stuff called safe fall in front of pubs. Which is that sort of rubber stuff they put in play grounds.

But otherwise hard to break fall if you have been knocked out.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Steve,
Based the info we have the victim could been aware that their was a ongoing situation and avoided it altogether and or if he needed to take some action he could have notified the authorities, police, etc. The sole responsibility for this instance lies with the person who struck Mr. Christie still Mr. Christie could have done things differently.

 

[Steve]

They are also putting stuff called safe fall in front of pubs. Which is that sort of rubber stuff they put in play grounds.

But otherwise hard to break fall if you have been knocked out.

Yeah. It's not the choke or the punch that kills you. It's the fall, or more specifically, the landing. I've seen people faint, and it's sickening and alarming to watch someone collapse and do nothing to protect themselves.

And you just never know with the head. We had a situation just a few months ago where some stupid teenagers were horsing around, hanging onto the hood of a car. Wasn't going more than a few miles per hour, but a teenager lost his grip and slid off onto the pavement, banging his head. No one thought anything of it... didn't look like much, but ended up killing the kid.

 

[Hanzou]

There are legal ramifications to choking someone, and in the States, it might be harder to defend your position legally than if you punched someone. Depends upon the local laws, but we've had conversations around here regarding this. I think that blood chokes are generally safe to perform, but if someone's unconscious whether by choke or by being struck, the end result is the same. They will fall to the ground unless helped and could strike their head, which could be fatal. We've got plenty of news articles to show us that it does happen. Choke or strike, unconscious is unconscious.

Unless you're choking them on the ground of course, ala Ryan Hall's Radical Restaurant BJJ adventure.

So, what would make this a self defense question. I asked earlier what could the victim have done differently. Hanzou, what do you think? Instead of hashing out the same old arguments, let's try and make this discussion useful.

What could the victim have done?

Not sell drugs at night to crazy people.

 

[BMhadoken]

Eases community concerns

Ah yes, feel-good legislation, the universal currency of politicians everywhere.

In the past that would have been the case, however, with all the violence occurring outside night clubs in recent years most states have enacted legislation that ensures that if you get in a fight and as a result of your actions someone dies or has life threatening injuries, you will be charged with an offence that carries up to a life sentence.

The legislation is framed around the one punch scenario.

Jesus that seems unreasonably draconian. Maybe it's effective at reducing club violence, I don't know. Of course, cutting a persons hands off is pretty effective at preventing further theft, yet I think most of us would call that disproportionate retribution.

I'm sure it's more complicated than shown here but it does leave a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Jenna]

I think knowing how to fall is a great idea, but where people are drunk, it may not help all that much. And if one is punched unconscious, even for a few seconds in what I've heard referred to as a flash knockout, no amount of technique would help as the individual is completely unresponsive for a few seconds. This is what makes these so dangerous. In a ring/cage, the ground is even and padded. You won't fall onto a curb or a rock.

Forgive me I was not aware there was a straight KO (I can not have access to most links from here and was going by what I read of others)..

Agree with you my point is not valid. Though anecdotally I have seen KO blow concluded with soft back breakfall I do not know how this happen and but I do recall an elbow strike -accidental- where uke was KO but some how or other deployed the old mat slap.. Interestingly for me this was a colleague who -like me- had long prior stopped mat slapping because we were told in no uncertain terms of its unnecessary inefficiency.. so what happen was either old muscle memory, pure coincidence or maybe I am just day dreaming ? Jx

 

[Steve]

Forgive me I was not aware there was a straight KO (I can not have access to most links from here and was going by what I read of others)..

Agree with you my point is not valid. Though anecdotally I have seen KO blow concluded with soft back breakfall I do not know how this happen and but I do recall an elbow strike -accidental- where uke was KO but some how or other deployed the old mat slap.. Interestingly for me this was a colleague who -like me- had long prior stopped mat slapping because we were told in no uncertain terms of its unnecessary inefficiency.. so what happen was either old muscle memory, pure coincidence or maybe I am just day dreaming ? Jx

More of an addition than a correction. I think you make a great point. I just also think that people are sometimes determined to undermine their training. Drinking to excess is a great way to make any training you've done worthless.

 

[Jenna]

More of an addition than a correction. I think you make a great point. I just also think that people are sometimes determined to undermine their training. Drinking to excess is a great way to make any training you've done worthless.

Agree.. then again if some one regularly drink to excess the implication is that other issues need addressed within their selves and their lives.. Would MA help in that case? Yes of course! Though only by a committed MA instructor with certain wisdom, a will to go the extra mile (or twelve), sense of care, genuine compassion for his or her student to even begin to intervene.. Are there MA instructors who are like this? I know there are. Perhaps they are difficult to find. Perhaps they have not even found them selves They are about though Jx

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

What could the victim have done?

Not sell drugs at night to crazy people.

By all accounts of the story in the link Mr. Christie was not part of the original group of teenagers attempting to sell Mr. McNeil drugs. He came about the end of the altercation between Mr. McNeil and the other group

 

[Dirty Dog]

Folks, there is an awful lot of off-topic, personal sniping going on. Please. Knock it off. Go back to discussing the actual topic and STOP the personal commentary before the thread gets locked and points start being issued.

Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MT Senior Moderator

 

[Steve]

By all accounts of the story in the link Mr. Christie was not part of the original group of teenagers attempting to sell Mr. McNeil drugs. He came about the end of the altercation between Mr. McNeil and the other group

I think this is correct. My understanding is that the victim here was trying to intercede. He was the, "Hey guys. Can't we all get along?" guy. Was punched because he was mistaken as being part of the other group.

 

[K-man]

OK. Let's start again. I posted the OP because in this case the perpetrator was a martial artist. To the best of my knowledge it is the first time in an incident like this it is a martial artist has been involved. It is a coincidence that he was an MMA fighter although in fairness, if you read his bio would any of us allowed this guy into one of our classes?

In past threads people have argued that most MA schools teach 'self defence' and I would maintain that this is not the case. Most MA schools teach you how to defend yourself when there is a fight, quite a significant difference.

Another reason for posting was this stupid notion that it's alright to have a consensual fight and the video of the guy from Washington State was posted as an example. Consensual fighting is dumb because as the links I posted show, people die from a single punch, even if it is not the punch itself that kills. Is it worth spending 20 years of the best part of your life in jail simply because you couldn't control your ego?

Here is some more background into the introduction of the one punch legislation.

Australia leading the way in crackdown on one-punch killers - Telegraph

The spate of “king hits”, now known as “coward punches” at the request of the victims’ families, have caused 91 deaths in Australia since 2000, according to research by Monash University. The deaths raised questions about a culture of violence and excess drinking among pumped-up young men.

How does it link into self defence? Well as anyone who teaches or anyone who has been taught self defence would know, it is really about risk management on both sides of the ledger. Let's look first at the guy who is now in jail.

He fits the mould of people likely to be involved in these incidents.

Julia Quilter, from the University of Wollongong, has researched the phenomenon of one-punch assaults in Australia and found that most offenders were 18 to 25 year old men who cannot control their anger, particularly when they drink alcohol. Out of 14 fatalities she examined, most took place around pubs and bars, with 13 involving alcohol, one involving drugs and four involving no intoxication.

“The offenders are typically not good at anything else in their lives other than fighting – and they are quite angry people,” she said.

When we ask parents why they would like to have their children taught a martial art, discipline and self discipline always feature highly in the replies. Respect is another feature of TMAs. Respect for the dojo, respect for the instructors, respect for the other students and respect of self. Most karate schools have their dojo kun.

I doubt any of that was familiar to Shaun McNeil.

What about the victim? Well he didn't choose to get involved at all. The kids getting beaten up ran to hide behind him and his brother.

"Daniel Christie said something along the lines of `What's going on?' or `What are you hitting a kid for?'" Mr Balodis said.

McNeil, swearing and bloodied from the scuffle, referred several times to his training as a mixed martial arts fighter.

Mr Christie, who was with his brother Peter, backed away, had his hands up "in a defensive manner" and said "no", Mr Balodis said.

Did he do anything wrong? Well King's Cross in Sydney is a notorious place for trouble and for drugs. It is also one of the most popular night spots so to suggest no one should go there is not really an option. It was erroneously suggested he chose to get involved, he didn't. It was erroneously suggested he should have have a backup, he did. It was erroneously suggested he should have just called the police, he didn't have time or opportunity. So what did he do? He did ask what was going on which probably drew attention to himself but he did what we teach in self defence, raise his hands in a defensive manner and back away.

For Daniel Christie, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe martial arts training would have helped but at 18 any suggestion that he was going to defend himself against a self confessed gym junkie and MMA fighter is wishful thinking.

Oh yes, choking. I introduced that purely to note that choking is not a good option in a street fight in Australia as it can attract an attempted murder charge and a long period of incarceration. Better not to choke or punch at all in most cases.

 

[Steve]

K-man, there've been many good posts with a lot of good questions in them. Would like to hear your thoughts on those. Did you read them? Instead of starting again, i think the thread has taken a positive turn, and it would be intersting to hear your thoughts.

 

[Steve]

Just noticed the statistic. 91 deaths since 2000? That's... that actually seems really, really low for a country as large as Australia. I mean, I understand that avoidable death should be managed, but this really seems to be an example of irrational fear. An average of about 6 deaths per year makes this an exceedingly unlikely event to occur, with a reaction that seems very much out of proportion. Particularly when you consider that accidental falls account for about 320 times that many deaths in a single year, and that's not even in the top 10 leading causes of death in Australia in 2013.

I think, K-man, you make an excellent point regarding who is actually teaching self defense. I asked the qeustion in the pillars of self defense thread, and got mostly crickets. I know that there are some here who seem to do an EXCELLENT job of teaching practical self defense, but I'd say most schools teach martial arts, which is different.

And even in that thread, Andrastea made a great point that one size does not fit all. What most here think is excellent self defense training would be largely irrelevant and unhelpful as it presumes that the bad guy is a stranger and that the situation is random.

Beyond that, the emphasis in that thread seems overwhelmingly to suggest that most of the people here who allege to know what's what believe that fighting skills are not even close to the most important self defense skill to have. Yet, fighting skills represents the vast majority of self defense training. We have a disconnect, and one that hasn't yet been directly addressed.

 

[Dirty Dog]

OK. Let's start again. I posted the OP because in this case the perpetrator was a martial artist. To the best of my knowledge it is the first time in an incident like this it is a martial artist has been involved. It is a coincidence that he was an MMA fighter although in fairness, if you read his bio would any of us allowed this guy into one of our classes?

Do you do background checks on potential students? We do not. And it could be argued that some of those most in need of the self control and self discipline we at least try to teach are those who would fail a background check.

In past threads people have argued that most MA schools teach 'self defence' and I would maintain that this is not the case. Most MA schools teach you how to defend yourself when there is a fight, quite a significant difference.

What is taught, what is absorbed, what is retained, and what is applied in a crisis are four different things. Most schools are primarily about teaching people to defend themselves in a fight. This is self-evident. I don't think I've ever known anyone promoted for their mastery of Run-Fu, although it's certainly something we encourage.

Do you test and promote based on avoidance techniques, or on combat techniques?

Another reason for posting was this stupid notion that it's alright to have a consensual fight

This was not a consensual fight. This was a bystander who was assaulted.

Did he do anything wrong? Well King's Cross in Sydney is a notorious place for trouble and for drugs.

This is one of those "well DUH" statements. A significant portion of those who are out for a good time include drugs as part of that good time. Alcohol, it should be remembered, is a drug.

This is a sad case, and I admit that from my point of view, the correct charge would be manslaughter (since I really doubt Mr MMA intended to kill anyone), but that's a matter of local law. Not my opinion.

People on drugs do stupid things.
Innocent people can be hurt by those stupid things.
Laws are not intended to protect those innocent bystanders, nor are they capable of doing so. They're only intended to punish the person who did the stupid thing.

That's pretty much all I can get from this scenario.

 

[K-man]

K-man, there've been many good posts with a lot of good questions in them. Would like to hear your thoughts on those. Did you read them? Instead of starting again, i think the thread has taken a positive turn, and it would be intersting to hear your thoughts.

I read everything and I believe I have answered all the 'good' questions. Also, I didn't start again. I introduced new points in progressive posts which have been ignored by some.

As to hearing my thoughts? I'll drip feed those as the thread progresses, but I am far more interested in the thoughts of others.

 

[K-man]

Just noticed the statistic. 91 deaths since 2000? That's... that actually seems really, really low for a country as large as Australia. I mean, I understand that avoidable death should be managed, but this really seems to be an example of irrational fear. An average of about 6 deaths per year makes this an exceedingly unlikely event to occur, with a reaction that seems very much out of proportion. Particularly when you consider that accidental falls account for about 320 times that many deaths in a single year, and that's not even in the top 10 leading causes of death in Australia in 2013.

I think you need to put this into context. Australia on the whole is not a violent country. There are pockets where that is an issue but we don't expect to see fighting on our city streets and we don't expect to have innocent bystanders killed.

I think, K-man, you make an excellent point regarding who is actually teaching self defense. I asked the qeustion in the pillars of self defense thread, and got mostly crickets. I know that there are some here who seem to do an EXCELLENT job of teaching practical self defense, but I'd say most schools teach martial arts, which is different.

And that is exactly what I have been saying, even if the signage says 'self defence'.

And even in that thread, Andrastea made a great point that one size does not fit all. What most here think is excellent self defense training would be largely irrelevant and unhelpful as it presumes that the bad guy is a stranger and that the situation is random.

True, but that doesn't negate the need for SD training.

Beyond that, the emphasis in that thread seems overwhelmingly to suggest that most of the people here who allege to know what's what believe that fighting skills are not even close to the most important self defense skill to have. Yet, fighting skills represents the vast majority of self defense training. We have a disconnect, and one that hasn't yet been directly addressed.

There is no disconnect. The smallest part of self defence requires the most training to become proficient. The most important part of SD training is what you posted earlier, common sense.

To me, we need to keep drilling the simple aspects of SD while we are training our martial art.