Self Defence or Murder .. a fine line.

[Hanzou]

This has nothing to do with anti-grappling.

Weren't you originally going to put this in the anti-grappling thread?

There is nothing to suggest that any of them had any sort of MA training...

Not the point.

and even if the poor guy that died did know some grappling, being drunk would negate a lot of his ability.

That depends on the level of ability, and the level of intoxication.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This has nothing to do with anti-grappling. There is nothing to suggest that any of them had any sort of MA training and even if the poor guy that died did know some grappling, being drunk would negate a lot of his ability.

Hard to say how much his inebriation would have affected him (a lot, a little?) though we know that he bumped into the perpetrator, so it's reasonable to assume that he may have been noticeably impaired.

Given that both men were drinking, possibly drunk, this definitely sounds like there was a lack of good judgment. And judgment is one of the first things affected by alcohol.

But I'd guarantee that regardless of how much he had to drink, his head impacting the pavement negated whatever grappling ability the alcohol hadn't.

 

[K-man]

Weren't you originally going to put this in the anti-grappling thread?

I didn't.

Not the point.

What is the point?

That depends on the level of ability, and the level of intoxication.

Let's assume 'falling over' drunk.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Let's assume 'falling over' drunk.

When I was very young, I saw a Judo guy used "shoulder throw" to throw a drunk opponent over his head. That drunk person on the ground said, "If I'm not drunk, there is no way that I'll let you to throw me like this."

 

[drop bear]

Because through the whole discussion, we don't have enough wrestlers, Judoka, Aikido guys, ... in those discussion. It's quite amazing that after 30 pages of "anti-grappling", nobody has ever mentioned about how to anti "hip throw" (the mother of all throws) yet.

To me, the grappling starts from the first grab too.



I'll call this the guy on the ground is still fighting.

Drop your weight. Don't give space in the hips.

The issue with anti hip throws is the timing.

 

[drop bear]

I fully agree with everything your saying. I do disagree with the conclusion that because he wasn't really fighting at that point that the altercation (fight) didn't go to the ground.

As the victim was already inebriated, and probably either unconscious or stunned from landing on his head, any skills he might have had were moot at that point.

So while I would maintain that the fight went to the ground, most, if not all, of the arguments in favor of having the skills to fight on the ground are inapplicable to this scenario.

Except a component of ground fighting should be falling and rolling. So you are in a position to defend. The whole well rounded argument.

 

[drop bear]

Anyway. I think there are a rang of skills that can be employed to maybe prevent this kind of thing happening. And these skills should be employed as a set of skills supporting each other rather than independent of each other.

So you would start with basic route planning. You don't go where you are likely to get in trouble. In St kilda not such a big issue apparently in places like Rio more of one.

You plan not to get stranded. So you are not drinking too much. Walking around on your own meeting people in back car parks.

You lean not to pick fights and avoid fights.

You learn to fight.

You learn to fight from your back.

And somewhere in that sequence some skills like use of force and first aid and stuff.

 

[Brian King]

Regarding stomps to the head or body-
If a person is in a legal lethal force situation then the actual technique used is a minor point in my opinion. Knowing when lethal force is necessary and 'authorized' should be a required point in training and one that is emphasized many times.

Regarding training the stomp-
We do cover it as it is a favorite tactic in some neighborhoods. We cover how to safely do it and more importantly how to defend from it. To learn how to defend a specific kind of attack - facing that attack requires that the training partner know how to throw the attack and not be afraid to do so.

An example, one training partner with their back on the floor and legs up against the wall (which if you slowly let the legs rotate down to the floor is a great stretch) butt tight against both the floor and the wall, the other training partner(s) starting slowly come in from a two or three step distance from actual kicking/stomping distance- and slowly stomp towards the 'downed' training partner once in range. The person on the floor is actually looking and reacting upside down and the proprioception work is rather confusing at first. The attack can come from right, left, or center.

The training partner on the ground is getting used to seeing an attack forming and an attack line from a very unusual position. They are training their body not to freeze when confronted or encountering an unusual position or circumstance. And they are learning to deal with stomps which are very common. Seeing a size whatever coming at your head when you are in a vulnerable position is an exercise in breathing and dealing with fear.

The training partner doing the kicking is working on multiple levels as well. They are learning range to an unusual target. They are learning to deal with fear from and crashing/falling into walls and floors - if the defense is good (especially as the drill speeds up) They are working on fear of contact (both giving and receiving) They are learning how to work in tighter than usual spaces. They are learning how to walk on 'uneven' surfaces.

It is interesting exploration in my opinion but not for everyone.

Regards
Brian King

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Except a component of ground fighting should be falling and rolling. So you are in a position to defend. The whole well rounded argument.

Two drunk untrained people. Honestly, most of the arguments presented in this thread regarding grappling do not apply, regardless of whether you perceive the fight as going to the ground or a presence of grappling.

The missing component isn't some training element, but the element of good sense. Don't go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things. Being in a state of intoxication affects one's judgment and behavior. Ever go to a concert and watch a band that's drunk and high amidst an audience that's drunk and high? Ever notice how the band all think they're playing the best they've ever played and the audience thinks their great? Even though the band sounds terrible?

It's the same dynamic that causes an intoxicated person to think that they're okay to drive. Or that their behavior is level headed and logical when it's actually belligerent and antagonistic. And when they encounter pushback, they don't understand why, and then get even more belligerent and antagonistic.

Then there's motor skills and more importantly, reaction time; they're impaired. Which affects the timing and likely the execution of rolling and falling techniques.

Everyone is focused on grappling/anti-grappling, was there grappling, or you should train grappling to be well rounded. Honestly, this entire discussion is pointless; it centers around two untrained drunks, and the major point of discussion should be the all of the missed mental components of self defense, because that is really what brought this event into play. The training elements don't even come into play in this scenario.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So you would start with basic route planning. You don't go where you are likely to get in trouble. In St kilda not such a big issue apparently in places like Rio more of one.

You plan not to get stranded. So you are not drinking too much. Walking around on your own meeting people in back car parks.

You lean not to pick fights and avoid fights.

These three items will keep you out of more trouble than all of the fight training in the world. These are essentials.

I was asked by women at work what self defense advice I could give to women. I told them the following:

• Don't go jogging in Rock Creek Park alone.
• Don't go jogging at night, particularly alone.
• Don't walk around with you face buried in your phone or be on the phone when you walk or drive.
• Stay away from social settings that involve alcohol and people you don't know.
• Don't attend said social settings alone.
• Don't wear your purse around your neck.
• Park in well lit areas.
• Walk confidently like you own the place.
• Be aware of your surroundings.
• Wear comfortable shoes that you can walk/run in.
• Lock your doors
• Don't advertise where you're going on social media.
• Find out if the county or police department offer a women's self defense class.

That was the most I could reasonably cram into the relatively brief conversation and expect them to retain. The amazing response I got was, "Wow. I hadn't even thought of any of that."

What they were expecting was cheap shot moves, like heel to the foot or knee to the groin.

 

[Steve]

Hard to say how much his inebriation would have affected him (a lot, a little?) though we know that he bumped into the perpetrator, so it's reasonable to assume that he may have been noticeably impaired.

Given that both men were drinking, possibly drunk, this definitely sounds like there was a lack of good judgment. And judgment is one of the first things affected by alcohol.

But I'd guarantee that regardless of how much he had to drink, his head impacting the pavement negated whatever grappling ability the alcohol hadn't.

I mostly agree. however, the highlighted part speaks to some of the confusion earlier. Grappling ability could have prevented his head from impacting the pavement in the first place. Grappling includes the grips, the throw, the defense against the throw and anything that happens on the ground.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I mostly agree. however, the highlighted part speaks to some of the confusion earlier. Grappling ability could have prevented his head from impacting the pavement in the first place. Grappling includes the grips, the throw, the defense against the throw and anything that happens on the ground.

I agree; but I do not see this as a grappling issue in the least. See my further responses to Drop Bear.

 

[tkdwarrior]

Reading the original post, it is indeed a bad case of alcohol and testosterone. A stomp kick is a legitimate martial arts technique. But to do it over and over again?

If you can't handle yout liquor don't drink.

If you have neutralized an attack get away asap.

Better yet do not put yourself in a position you may not like.