Tolerance isn't a big thing then is it really?
No one minds Jeff's views here, it's his views and he's entitled to them, free speech and all that.
MMA Anarchist Ordered to Surrender Passport
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
Tolerance isn't a big thing then is it really?
No one minds Jeff's views here, it's his views and he's entitled to them, free speech and all that.
People must like watching him compete, and he must command a large following. Obviously we can't look up to him for his moral attributes, I would hope.
People do and he's a good instructor. He is surprisingly moral by his own lights, he believes in something that not everyone else does, nothing wrong with that. It's never been a problem, he's more tolerant of others views than they are of his, thats for sure.
CoryKS
Senior Master
And yet he felt compelled to tag a government building with the symbol of his belief.
He's a tax payer so it's his building too lol! it's a minor crime and people are calling for him to be executed, c'mon! someone here also wanted him castrated, people might not agree with him and his bit of graffiti so fine him but really, wanting him dead?
CoryKS
Senior Master
I didn't say I wanted him dead. And just because it's "his" building too, at least in the metaphorical sense, doesn't give him license to vandalize it. There's really no grounds for the big, strong, independent anarchist to start boo-hooing if all the others to whom the building also belongs decide that they don't appreciate his attempts at community art.
Gaius Julius Caesar
Black Belt
Where is that coming from?
We have lots of tolerence over here, we even have a Bill of Rights.
He has every right to expouse his veiws.
I have every right to hold him in disdain for being a meathead Anarchist covered in Soviet symbolic tattoos.
DergaSmash
Yellow Belt
There is a difference between adolescent "anarchism," and the actual political view. Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau were self-prcolamied Anarchists and are probably two of the most intelligent men in America's history.
Henry David Thoreau (Resistance to Civil Government) "I ask for, not at once no government, but at once a better government" the direction of this improvement aims at anarchism: That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.
You can't lump the adolescent idea of anarchism in with the intellectual idea. Some may take offense.
Henry David Thoreau (Resistance to Civil Government) "I ask for, not at once no government, but at once a better government" the direction of this improvement aims at anarchism: That government is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have.
You can't lump the adolescent idea of anarchism in with the intellectual idea. Some may take offense.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #29
Having once lived in Golden, Colorado, I often spent time in the People's Republic of Boulder. Colorado University is there. As such, I used to enjoy the good beer, loose morals, and often intelligent graffiti to be found on walls and in alleys. One that stuck with me over the years was a real mind-boggler. It said simply, "Anarchy Rules!" Indeed. Another budding deep-thinker heard from.
Why? He can earn a living at McDonalds without one.
I agree, but as they say, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Once he commited the crime, any impediments that he suffers to his career are his own fault.
Daniel
Nolerama
Master Black Belt
I think an instance of immaturity does not warrant jail time. The umbrella term "anarchy" does have negative connotations for the conservative, but doesn't necessarily mean the man meant that the capitol building should burn down.
In a way, this particular act of graffiti is a clear cut example as to why one would tag an anarchist symbol on a capitol building... Because the State is busy spending taxpayer money to prosecute what should be considered a misdemeanor, or simply warrant a fine and slap on the wrist.
I see this more as a joke, and Monson is winning that one.
Personally, I don't think it's tasteful to graffiti that sort of thing. It doesn't usually get your point across and some poor city worker has to make time to clean it up. There are much better ways to stir the pot in America... Like post in online forums.
I do have to ask: where does the meathead thing come from? Apparently, the guy has some smarts to understand different levels of anarchism, and get a Master's in (what I'm assuming) Social Work. Would certain prejudices and herd mentality possibly color that particular quip? Maybe.
But I won't go overboard, like the State of Washington. Because then the anarchist would prove a point to both the state and on a social level, since we're here discussing it behind our keyboards.
this is what I mean.... also if it's a free country with free speech allowed why think he's not entitled to have a passport?
spraying a building can be against the law but the punishment for such a crime hardly calls for the death penalty does it?
Having spoken to Jeff I know he's a very smart guy so meathead doesn't come into it, childish? I don't know as I haven't heard his side and I'm always very wary of taking sides based on media reports. I do know he's very committed to his views, he doesn't take the easy way out and change his views to make himself popular.
CoryKS
Senior Master
Can you give us an example of what "his side" of the argument might be, that would make graffitti a mature action? What would elevate this to something more than a skatepunk's temper tantrum?
I did say I don't know whether it was childish or not as I haven't heard his side!
Vandalism is not protected as free speech. He could have spray painted "Uncle Sam rules!!" and the crime would be the same: vandalism.
As for his passport, if a guy is foolish enough to vandalize a government building, I see no need for him to retain his passport if the court has seen fit to revoke it. Besides, if he goes to some other country and does this nonsense, he will be the first to plea for our government to get him off the hook.
No, though I believe that Erik was speaking in hyperbole.
There are places in the world where such crimes can get one killed, so revocation of his passport might actually be in his best interest.
The issue is not his views, but his chosen means of expressing them. There is nothing stopping him from blanketing the windshields of cars with fliers detailing his views, posing them on buletin boards, or even taking out ads.
I am wary of the media, but he appears to have been photographed in the act. I realize that pictures can be doctored, but it seems like a lot of trouble to go to over someone who is unheard of outside of a comparatively small demographic. It will be interesting to see how the case unfolds.
Edit: Given that he has not been found guilty as of yet, I am qualifying my comments regarding him specifically to "if" he commited the crime.
Daniel
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I see where you're coming from and it's a point of view that is expressed moderately. However I think some posters were meaning that because he's an anarchist he should be shot or at the very least not be allowed a passport, I don't honestly think they were meaning his act of vandalism which if he committed should rightly be tried and convicted for. Some here were condemning him for his views not the act of vandalism he's alleged to have committed.
CoryKS
Senior Master
Agreed. Personally, I'm not impressed by attempts to rationalize actions as speech. It could be argued that scrawling an Anarchy(tm) logo could be considered free speech. But while one has the right to speak and write what one wants in this country, it bears repeating that one does not have the right to a forum. Monson was not given a forum to speak here, and this is not a first amendment issue.
However he has pleaded not guilty and under the rules he's innocent until proven guilty isn't he? So in a proper democratic manner we should with hold judgement until he's been to court and a verdict is given.
I think that the main point to be considered is that his crime is indeed vandalism. In the big picture, it is vandalism in the interest of promoting his own POV.
As far as his views go, I feel that he is entitled to them. In the face of global government stupidity for multiple centuries, I do not have instant revultion for anarchy, though I consider government too useful to support anarchy myself.
I just do not feel that anyone should be engaging in middle school pranks to promote their agenda. He would have my attention if he posted his thoughts about it in off topic. But if he turns out to be guilty of the crime (and it appears that he is), then I will dismiss him as nothing more than a punk with a can of paint and forget about him.
Daniel
Archangel M
Senior Master
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He's confessed to "actually doing it"..then pleads not guilty in court. I've made MY judgment already. Im not a judge, nor on a jury so the "innocent till proven guilty" doesn't apply to me..I can think what I want about this stupid defacement of porperty. And this knucklehead is complaining about the 20K fine saying "it doesn't cost 20K to clean that up"..hey GENIUS, the fine for conviction of a CRIME is part of the punishment for committing a CRIME. The cost of clean up should be on top of the fine for committing a CRIME IMO. He also made some comment to the prosecutor along the lines of "so are you going to support my family..." Perhaps THAT should have been on his mind BEFORE he decided to pull this childish stunt.
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