Misconceptions about non-contact sparring.

[Jaeimseu]

Here is a video of one of our instructors from interstate doing a 100 man Kumite against multiple different styles with contact using their rules and target areas.

He doesn't seem to be having any more or less trouble connecting than any of the others he is sparring.

The turning (round) kick should always have the knee slightly bent otherwise the ball of the foot is comes in at the wrong angle, that does not change when you are kicking a solid object.

What are their rules? He (and they) don't seem to be hitting full contact. Maybe he's tired in the video (it was round 90 that I saw). I'm not questioning a person's ability to make any contact. I'm saying it's not as simple as flipping a switch for most people.

Regarding the round kick, it doesn't matter if you're kicking ball of the foot or instep, the kicking knee still needs to aim past the target to get full contact.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk

 

[RTKDCMB]

Am I the only person who wacks people in the head to get them to keep their guard up?

When I was grading for my brown belt I was sparring an instructor and I dropped my guard for a moment and he struck me in the face with a back fist and gave me a fat lip.He could have hit me a lot harder if he had wanted to but I got the message and did not drop my guard after that.

I guess all those MMA fighters I've seen who have their guard down and get whacked in the head just aren't getting the message.

 

[K-man]

I read and understood the op. I don't agree it. But I did understand it.

Trying to pretend I didn't will not fool anyone. Especially if it is your constant fall back when you don't actually have an argument.

In case you didn't understand the OP it was about non-contact sparring. That doesn't happen a lot in MMA I suspect. So whether you agree or not is not the point.

Easy to test as well. Do a full contact fight and see how you go.

If you read and understood the OP why would you make such a smart **** comment about testing it in a full contact fight? If the people training non-contact wanted to fight full contact surely they would train Kyokushin, MMA or any one of the other sports available that train that way. You are told post after post that not all martial artists are training for the ring. What part of that don't you understand? In fact most of us are not training to fight at all. Fighting for most of us is the last option, not the Holy Grail that you perceive. So non-contact sparring may well be a viable option for some people if not most people. Personally non-contact sparring is not my cup of tea either but I will discuss that in another post and my reasons are totally different to yours.

So I'm not pretending that you didn't read the OP. If you read it you obviously have a problem with comprehension. Either way your suggestion about testing was wrong and disrespectful. The OP made a number of points regarding misconceptions about non-contact sparring, eight in fact. You are free to agree or disagree, but for heaven's sake leave your MMA Superman cape somewhere else and discuss what was posted on its merits. We all know how talented you are in the ring and on the street so you don't have to rabbit on about how everyone needs to fight full contact to be credible.
:asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

What are their rules? He (and they) don't seem to be hitting full contact. Maybe he's tired in the video (it was round 90 that I saw). I'm not questioning a person's ability to make any contact. I'm saying it's not as simple as flipping a switch for most people.

Regarding the round kick, it doesn't matter if you're kicking ball of the foot or instep, the kicking knee still needs to aim past the target to get full contact.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk

If you look on the ActiveRed website it will tell you but basically if he is facing a boxer then there is no kicking or hitting below the belt and if he is facing a WTF guy then there is no leg kicks or punching to the face etc. It is not an official Kumite because it is not scored and he is not trying to defeat his opponents. It is for charity so they are not going all out as he has to last 100 rounds and needs to recycle opponents, although the boxer did knock the wind out of him in round 23. I think it was 90 second rounds with a 30 second rest period between and a 5 minute break after round 50. Here's another link:

Active Red :: Kumite recap Pt2

 

[RTKDCMB]

Other things like (yes I know I am a bad role player) but I can just walk through semi contact hits and drive straight punches in the pocket with impunity.

And if you suddenly decided to do that when sparring one of our black belts then they would quickly change tactics and knock you out instead. A few times in the past when a student would get overzealous and continuously make contact with their sparring partners my instructor used to say to the student that if he wants full contact he can spar with him (meaning no protective gear or forbidden targets) and so far noone has been stupid enough to take him up on it.

I suddenly have a chin of iron.

Yes you would, when defending against yourself against 3 opponents in the 'street' once you knock one out you only have to defend against 2 but when you are non-contact sparring 3 opponents you can not eliminate one of them to make it easier, you have to continue to deal with all 3 and in that respect that actually makes it harder.

No fear of getting nailed and extra cardio that comes with not throwing as hard.

We occasionally have students who come from other martial arts that do full contact and have 'no fear of getting nailed' but once they spar one of our black belts or instructors they soon change their tune once they start seeing hands and feet coming at their unprotected face, believe me the fear will be there. Contact or no contact you 'throw' just as hard.

 

[drop bear]

In case you didn't understand the OP it was about non-contact sparring. That doesn't happen a lot in MMA I suspect. So whether you agree or not is not the point.

If you read and understood the OP why would you make such a smart **** comment about testing it in a full contact fight? If the people training non-contact wanted to fight full contact surely they would train Kyokushin, MMA or any one of the other sports available that train that way. You are told post after post that not all martial artists are training for the ring. What part of that don't you understand? In fact most of us are not training to fight at all. Fighting for most of us is the last option, not the Holy Grail that you perceive. So non-contact sparring may well be a viable option for some people if not most people. Personally non-contact sparring is not my cup of tea either but I will discuss that in another post and my reasons are totally different to yours.

So I'm not pretending that you didn't read the OP. If you read it you obviously have a problem with comprehension. Either way your suggestion about testing was wrong and disrespectful. The OP made a number of points regarding misconceptions about non-contact sparring, eight in fact. You are free to agree or disagree, but for heaven's sake leave your MMA Superman cape somewhere else and discuss what was posted on its merits. We all know how talented you are in the ring and on the street so you don't have to rabbit on about how everyone needs to fight full contact to be credible.
:asian:

Because then you would know if there was a difference or not. We can natter on all day but that is the deciding factor. Op,s post was saying no contact produces similar results. Fair enough. Go find out.

I could tell you the differences technically I tried, And people got sensitive.

Now when I say go out and test it you get sensitive.

Lucky I am not so sensitive. Or I would be offended by your insult posting.

Now go back and read the original post. Where it is a comparison on contact training and why there is really no difference.

 

[drop bear]

And if you suddenly decided to do that when sparring one of our black belts then they would quickly change tactics and knock you out instead. A few times in the past when a student would get overzealous and continuously make contact with their sparring partners my instructor used to say to the student that if he wants full contact he can spar with him (meaning no protective gear or forbidden targets) and so far noone has been stupid enough to take him up on it.



Yes you would, when defending against yourself against 3 opponents in the 'street' once you knock one out you only have to defend against 2 but when you are non-contact sparring 3 opponents you can not eliminate one of them to make it easier, you have to continue to deal with all 3 and in that respect that actually makes it harder.




We occasionally have students who come from other martial arts that do full contact and have 'no fear of getting nailed' but once they spar one of our black belts or instructors they soon change their tune once they start seeing hands and feet coming at their unprotected face, believe me the fear will be there. Contact or no contact you 'throw' just as hard.

Missing the point. Getting hit changes the tactics.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Missing the point. Getting hit changes the tactics.

Not all training needs to be done full contact with the intent to injure your partner in order to be effective.

 

[drop bear]

Not all training needs to be done full contact with the intent to injure your partner in order to be effective.

Still changes the tactics though.

Like a tendency to sit in the pocket and trade. And less need for good cardio.

 

[Transk53]

Still changes the tactics though.

Like a tendency to sit in the pocket and trade. And less need for good cardio.​

Sorry if I am being a bit thick here, but would not cardio be separate anyway?

 

[K-man]

Can I first say, I think you have done a great job with this post. I did try to rep you for it but the system was not in the same frame of mind.

Misconception #1 - Non-contact means there is no physical contact at all.

Non-contact can be a bit of a misnomer. Unless you are fighting a couple of metres apart, which seems a little pointless, contact is always a possibility and sometimes that contact can be quite hard. That is not evidence of lack of control but purely an unforeseen movement that suddenly puts the target in range of the strike, a point that was made in #2. We used to do a lot of limited contact sparring ant twice I copped broken ribs.

Misconception #2 - Punches and kicks are pulled.

Like Tony Dismukes, I'm not a great fan of utilising strikes that finish an inch or so from the target. Strikes that do that smack of training from a fixed stance. That way you certainly can judge the distance knowing that your punch will stop exactly one arms-length from your shoulder. I don't teach striking that way. I teach to strike through the target from an informal stance as in karate's Moto Dachi or fighting stance.

Many people look at karate punches as being like the ones in this video ...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R1PZbInSsyc

Unfortunately you also see advanced karate people doing the same thing and you see it in non-contact sparring. My 'smell test' is this. Would you punch like this in a pub brawl? If your answer is yes then I can't help you. If the answer is no, then I would ask why are you still training that way?

Here's some video of Bas Rutten fighting. Bas' background is Kyokoshin. There is no fixed stance and his punches and kicks strike through. These are real full on punches and kicks and I doubt you could stop any of them short in a non-contact sparring situation.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uiGQIh-6Kdo

Misconception #3- If you only train non-contact you won't be able to deal with pain or take a hit.

I have come away from training many times bruised and sore. There are as many conditioning methods as there are days in the year, and probably even more. To think you have to spar full contact to develop tolerance to pain and being hit is totally wrong.

Misconception #4 – With full contact you can condition yourself to take a hit.

See above.

Misconception #5 – We don’t train full contact because it would be too dangerous.

I actually agree with the misconception. But that is the training I conduct. It is targeting places that if struck with full power would be likely to severely injure or worse, and I don't want to water down my training just so people can spar. I prefer them to train with light contact and good control in the way that they would fight in a real situation. If you train a sport based style then your training will be different because in sport you are not utilising those techniques.

So I agree totally with the OP saying "In order to do full contact sparring and make it safe you have to sacrifice something – either you have to limit your targets (i.e. no punching to the head, striking to the neck, groin kicks), or you have to use protective equipment. Limiting your targets can make your art less effective for self defence because you often have to train yourself out of the instincts you need."

But having said that there are many MAs that are not designed for sparring. Some of them like Aikido could be quite destructive if used full on. And then there are others that you might just shake your head when they make the statement.

And I just love this bit ...

"I don’t know about anyone else but I joined a martial art so that people WOULDN’T punch me in the head. What is the point of learning self defence if you just get beaten up in class?"

I would suggest that this describes 95% of martial artists.

Misconception #6 – If you only train non-contact then you will instinctively not make contact in a real fight

I agree that this is a myth, however if you are going to train with non-contact sparring I believe you need to ensure that there is other training in place that gives you a real feel for in your face fighting. Probably the biggest issue in a real fight is the adrenalin rush, not the lack of full contact sparring.

Misconception #7 – Non-contact martial artists do not do any conditioning

Same as #3 and #4 above.

Misconception #8 – Full contact martial arts are the only way to learn how to hit targets well

Certainly full contact martial arts are ONE way of learning to hit targets well. But I must confess I am not a fan of static drills and 'air' punches. Technique is important but I believe the technique which we teach to beginners, kihon, is totally different to the technique we should be using as we gain more experience.

I do question the need for speed and power. As we get older we begin to slow and we do lose our strength. I believe that as we get older we can be just as effective by using our mind and experience to make up for power and speed.


"One advantage of full contact sparring is that you have instant feedback on whether your kick or strike has the desired effect; with non-contact sparring it is a bit more theoretical."

And here is an arguement for either side. Full contact does mean you get a real response but it is the response of a trained and seasoned fighter. I would argue that a theoretical response may well be more realistic. That plus in full contact you are avoiding certain targets. With the theoretical approach you can arguably react in the way a person might react to a strike to the back of the neck or a knee to the lower abdomen. This is the principle behind a lot of our Krav training.

The only way to really know how effective a martial art is and what will work in a real life situation is to go out and get in to real fights on a daily basis and to use your skills to actually try to hurt other people. However, unless someone invents the Holodeck (ala Star Trek), this is highly immoral and logistically impossible as you would soon run out of students.

Back in the 70's I had mates that did just that. Most were involved in security at that time and were keen to test their skills. These days the laws are such that if you did that sort of thing you would get an enforced holiday with full board and lodging. The reality is, thankfully, that unless we are in law enforcement or security, very few of us will ever have to test our skills to the max in real life. I am more than happy to just train with people who do regularly use their skills and rely on their judgement as to whether my skills are sufficient for my needs.

There are more contact martial arts around than non-contact martial arts and some of the less enlightened full contact fighters and martial artists seem to think, and have in fact stated, that non-contact sparring is useless. People often dismiss what they do not understand so I hope I have been able to shed some light on the subject of non-contact sparring and its application for self defence. I have never trained in competition sparring or full contact martial arts/combat sports so there is an element of bias involved, as there is with anyone’s point of view so always remember that there are 3 sides to every story, YOURS, MINE AND THE TRUTH.

I have trained for competition, not full contact, and we no longer spar in the conventional sense. I would reintroduce sparring tomorrow if I thought it would be more effective training than what we presently do, so in the main YOURS and MINE are much the same. Is it the TRUTH? Who knows?
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Sorry if I am being a bit thick here, but would not cardio be separate anyway?

It is harder to train at contact. More stress. And everything is thrown with more effort. You get tired quicker and that changes things.

Remember that kick that misses and the fighter almost falls over? That sort of kick sucks energy from you.

People win contact fights on good cardio.

 

[K-man]

Because then you would know if there was a difference or not. We can natter on all day but that is the deciding factor. Op,s post was saying no contact produces similar results. Fair enough. Go find out.

The OP's post was an opinion. You are entitled to your opinion same as the rest of us here. If you want to put up your opinion, fine, go for it. But please, argue the case on its merit, not from an MMA perspective.

I could tell you the differences technically I tried, And people got sensitive.

There was nothing technical about your response. You said you were a poor role player

Other things like (yes I know I am a bad role player) but I can just walk through semi contact hits and drive straight punches in the pocket with impunity. I suddenly have a chin of iron. No fear of getting nailed and extra cardio that comes with not throwing as hard.

and you preferred to just hit people and you claimed that the best way to test the effectiveness of non-contact sparring was full contact sparring.

Easy to test as well. Do a full contact fight and see how you go.

Technical difference? Maybe a few glib one liners but nothing of substance.

Now when I say go out and test it you get sensitive.

Lucky I am not so sensitive. Or I would be offended by your insult posting.

Oh dear! Me sensitive? My insult posting? Really? Mate I have been so patient with your posts you wouldn't believe. And I didn't neg rep any of them.

Now go back and read the original post. Where it is a comparison on contact training and why there is really no difference.

I spent over an hour working on my response. Perhaps you would like to do likewise.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It is harder to train at contact.

In some ways.

More stress.

Depends on how much stress is applied, certainly more stress on the parts of your body getting hit.

And everything is thrown with more effort.

Just because you are not hitting each other full on does not mean that you are not throwing things with as much effort, it just has a different focus. Unless I am sparring beginners or children I put 100% effort into everything I do in class.

You get tired quicker and that changes things.

Getting tired always changes things but I would not say that the level of contact has anything to do with how tired you get. You get more tired when you put in more effort and/or you are not utilizing the effort efficiently, forgetting to breath for example.

Remember that kick that misses and the fighter almost falls over? That sort of kick sucks energy from you.

It does suck, yes, but fortunately that does not happen to me very often because, through non-contact sparring, I I always throw my kicks so that no matter whether I hit or miss I still have my balance, I might fall over once every couple of years or so but that's life.

People win contact fights on good cardio.

That is not in dispute but not everything is about 'winning'.

 

[drop bear]

In some ways.



Depends on how much stress is applied, certainly more stress on the parts of your body getting hit.



Just because you are not hitting each other full on does not mean that you are not throwing things with as much effort, it just has a different focus. Unless I am sparring beginners or children I put 100% effort into everything I do in class.



Getting tired always changes things but I would not say that the level of contact has anything to do with how tired you get. You get more tired when you put in more effort and/or you are not utilizing the effort efficiently, forgetting to breath for example.



It does suck, yes, but fortunately that does not happen to me very often because, through non-contact sparring, I I always throw my kicks so that no matter whether I hit or miss I still have my balance, I might fall over once every couple of years or so but that's life.



That is not in dispute but not everything is about 'winning'.

Contact strikes are inherently different normally. Which is why the overbalance and also why it is a harder exercise. If you really wail on someone it is very easy to gas out. It is a factor to consider.

Even full contact there is a management between hard and really hard shots.

You really need that chin of iron to stand and trade which is why most fighters don't.

Guys like mark hunt do exactly that but then they are built for it.

When it gets to full contact it really is about winning. Nobody wants to get bashed.

Found it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dapfW9AkfsQ

This is a really hard way to win a fight.

 

[drop bear]

The OP's post was an opinion. You are entitled to your opinion same as the rest of us here. If you want to put up your opinion, fine, go for it. But please, argue the case on its merit, not from an MMA perspective.



There was nothing technical about your response. You said you were a poor role player


and you preferred to just hit people and you claimed that the best way to test the effectiveness of non-contact sparring was full contact sparring.



Technical difference? Maybe a few glib one liners but nothing of substance.



Oh dear! Me sensitive? My insult posting? Really? Mate I have been so patient with your posts you wouldn't believe. And I didn't neg rep any of them.


I spent over an hour working on my response. Perhaps you would like to do likewise.

Look seriously anytime you want to argue the actual subject go for it.

 

[K-man]

Look seriously anytime you want to argue the actual subject go for it.

So you didn't see my response?

 

[Transk53]

It is harder to train at contact. More stress. And everything is thrown with more effort. You get tired quicker and that changes things.

Remember that kick that misses and the fighter almost falls over? That sort of kick sucks energy from you.

People win contact fights on good cardio.

Right now I get what you mean. You missed out "full" (I presume) and that threw me a lil bit. From what I have seen of MMA, I can't help but feel that a certain amount of recklessness is there. Okay there are some greats, but that would apply across a lot of disciplines. I really do see you're point about cardio, but why throw a kick that is going to miss. That just implies that the kick is a guess move of sorts, and that would be reckless. The one thing I would cite as a disagreement, is the stress element. One you get stressed, you do not breath. Thus you are relying on brute strength and raw power. Hence the energy drain. Economy of movement also applies to economy of the mind. Once you have to start thinking, you are not reacting. Just my own opinion.

 

[Steve]

Not all training needs to be done full contact with the intent to injure your partner in order to be effective.

Not all implies that some does. Or said another way, "not all" is different from "none."

Mixed martial artists spar at all levels of contact from shadow boxing with air to full contact.

If I understand drop bear's point, I believe he's suggesting that some full contact sparring is preferable to no full contact sparring. If so, I agree.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Steve]

Right now I get what you mean. You missed out "full" (I presume) and that threw me a lil bit. From what I have seen of MMA, I can't help but feel that a certain amount of recklessness is there. Okay there are some greats, but that would apply across a lot of disciplines. I really do see you're point about cardio, but why throw a kick that is going to miss. That just implies that the kick is a guess move of sorts, and that would be reckless. The one thing I would cite as a disagreement, is the stress element. One you get stressed, you do not breath. Thus you are relying on brute strength and raw power. Hence the energy drain. Economy of movement also applies to economy of the mind. Once you have to start thinking, you are not reacting. Just my own opinion.

This is very true about breathing and stress. I've seen very experienced black belts in other styles do this very thing when they step into the bjj gym. Another great endorsement for at least periodically sparring with greeter intensity and more contact.

The presumption I'm seeing here from some is that you train without contact, acknowledge the adverse effect that stress has on breathing and understand that in these situations that technique goes out the window. But then also seem to believe that you are immune to it. I don't get that, guys.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD