How important is contact sparring in MA?

[Tony Dismukes]

So I'm guessing more like this;

That had more of the appropriate elements (environmental considerations, the victim who turned on her rescuer), but you'll notice the participants made no attempt whatsoever to verbally diffuse the situation before just attacking the abusive boyfriend out of the blue. Nor did they follow the scenario through to the aftermath (which could have been ugly considering how the participants handled the situation). I think they had the beginnings of an idea for a good training scenario, but the trainer needed to develop it further to make it really useful for anything.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

When I think scenario training, this comes to mind;

Then you don't understand scenario based training (not stated sacastically but as a simple statement). The video claimed to be a BB demo/test.

Let me give an example of a system that is a form of scenario based training. It involves firearms and the LEO's on the board will understand I'm talking about the FATS machine (FireArms Training System). This is a screen made of a type of neopren (sp?) that you can shoot live rounds at. The screen is dialed into a computer that can branch-chain the scenario. On the screen are actors, like being in a movie. Some scenarios are shoot and some no-shoot. You interact with the actors on the screen, such as verbal commands/direct orders etc. Depending upon your actions, the computer changes the situation 'in-flight' so-to-speak to make it realistic and unpredictable. If it is shoot situation, the computer records where the shots went, whether it was considered a good shot and the actors respond appropriately (perhaps they fall down, perhaps they continue to fight/shoot/attack, perhaps they fall down but still return fire etc). There are thousands of scenarios and each one can change on the fly so you never know quite what to expect. They could obey your commands and the situation is over. That's realistic. They could defy you or cuss you or attack you. That's realistic.

This system has evolved to be so realistic that rookies literally come out of the room sweating and shaking due to the stress and adrenaline. Sometimes where behind them with lights flashing and sirens blazing, or we're yelling at them or whatever. Anything to make it as realistic as is safety possible and still provide valuable training.

What this does is give them exposure to a broad variety of experiences that they can later draw upon if faced with someting similar. As an example, if anyone has ever seen the training video, "Surviving Edged Weapons" they'll recall a training situation where an officer walks into a room but doesn't know the situaiton. A man draws a knife and begins to violently attack. Most officers backpeddled from the man and attempted to draw their sidearm despite not have enough distance to do so. Many were even trying to draw their sidearm will falling backward over their own feet. No one was successful in drawing their sidearm or successfully defending themselves. So better training needed to happen such as not to be so dialed in on drawing the sidearm in situations in which there is neither time nor space to do so. Looking for better, more viable options. Perhaps going hands on, perhaps seeking a barrier between you and the attacker, perhaps using something else easily at hand as a weapon. Often times we'll video tape training and the person will watch themselves afterwards for review and see what, if any, mistakes were made and what could have been done better. Then run the scenario again.

Just as importantly is the situation that never starts. By practicing de-escalation and having that as a viable tool when viable is preferable to fighting. I remember a long time ago as a rookie I was charged by a violent EDP (emotionally disturbed person). In my best command voice I loudly ordered him to stop and get on the ground, ya' know, like we do in all the movies. Well the guy actually stopped and fell to the ground, spread eagle. I didn't know what to do at that point! I was all jacked up and ready to rumble and here this guy actually followed my commands. Now what do I do? Took a few seconds before I realized I should probably cuff him up. The point is that prior to that there was not really any training in what to do if the guy actually stopped his attack and listened to you. As a result, I insert this sort of stuff into what I teach. So some scenarios don't necessarily have to go to a hands-on conclusion and that's good training. Best way not to get hurt in a fight is for the fight not to take place. Isn't as Rambo or sexy...but too be honest, I'd take it every time I could get it. Same thing with evading the fight or simply moving to the side and shoving him as he barrels towards me. When he lands on his butt, if I can get to a door and close and lock it...well, again, that's a viable option and the situation doesn't have to go any further as I'm safe. And sometimes it's going to be a knock down drag out fight for you life.

Exposure on the front end may mean a happier ending on the back end.

 

[Hanzou]

Then you don't understand scenario based training (not stated sacastically but as a simple statement). The video claimed to be a BB demo/test.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about LEO scenarios. I'm strictly talking about martial arts schools/clubs. I'm sure that the police and other law enforcement/military agencies have pretty solid scenario training. They kind of have to.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about LEO scenarios. I'm strictly talking about martial arts schools/clubs. I'm sure that the police and other law enforcement/military agencies have pretty solid scenario training. They kind of have to.

I understand, but I also use to run a regular MA school with the same type of training. Not all of my students were L.E. or C.O.'s. And I've seen other schools have the same philosophy in their training.

If the school has a focus on SD I'd like to see this concept expand. I mean, we're talking about a person's well being and possibly their life. I don't expect a soccer mom to be a SWAT badass but I think she deserves the best training possible to be able to defend herself against scumbags. A lot of course depends on the person and their mind set, but schools should always strive to have the best cutting edge training that's possible to provide.

 

[K-man]

When I think scenario training, this comes to mind;

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about LEO scenarios. I'm strictly talking about martial arts schools/clubs. I'm sure that the police and other law enforcement/military agencies have pretty solid scenario training. They kind of have to.

Regardless, that is purely a demonstration of defence against attack. Nothing to do with scenario training. How realistic the attack becomes depends on the skill level of the participants. The Krav one is scenario training. Whether they are doing what is optimal is a different argument. I would suggest that for basic training they did a great job.

 

[Hanzou]

I understand, but I also use to run a regular MA school with the same type of training. Not all of my students were L.E. or C.O.'s. And I've seen other schools have the same philosophy in their training.

Really? What style of MA would that be?

 

[Buka]

This is how we used to do scenario training, and that's the guy I did it with. He's a JKD guy, and a purple under Rickson (maybe brown by now, haven't seen him in a couple years) Interestingly enough, he's also legally blind.

Anyway, this is one of the many scenario trainings we did.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The FATS machine sounds cool, but it doesn't go far enough. I want someone to invent a Star Trek-style holodeck so we can have actual training realism.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Really? What style of MA would that be?

Same as my screen name.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The FATS machine sounds cool, but it doesn't go far enough. I want someone to invent a Star Trek-style holodeck so we can have actual training realism.

Now wouldn't that be the ultimate! Hit as hard as you want and don't have to worry about actually hurting your partner.

Yeah...I'm a Trekkie!

 

[Hanzou]

Same as my screen name.

Would that be this style?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Would that be this style?

No. Never heard of them. Not surprising though, Kwon Bup and Kong Soo Do are fairly generic and can be pretty much anything. We're more like fighting in a phone booth.

 

[drop bear]

I have a question for you guys.

Does anyone know anybody, who isn't a Martial Artist, that would absolutely kick your *** in a fight?

Yeah I have an industry filled with them. Some people are more naturally suted to a physical endevor. Even in mma there will be guys come in and just be naturally good beating people who have trained considerably longer.

Kane hober the gangly goober fighter that he is. Wins fights.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O9SbGNLgdjo

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Kata is a valuable training tool. Would you clarify please.

You have got to be kidding me. Sparring is detrimental. Kata is a valuable tool.

Do you do kata in a car?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The FATS machine sounds cool, but it doesn't go far enough. I want someone to invent a Star Trek-style holodeck so we can have actual training realism.

FATS training was really cool when I did it. I have quite a few opportunities in the police academy and afterwards. Definitely not a holodeck but still pretty cool!

 

[drop bear]

That had more of the appropriate elements (environmental considerations, the victim who turned on her rescuer), but you'll notice the participants made no attempt whatsoever to verbally diffuse the situation before just attacking the abusive boyfriend out of the blue. Nor did they follow the scenario through to the aftermath (which could have been ugly considering how the participants handled the situation). I think they had the beginnings of an idea for a good training scenario, but the trainer needed to develop it further to make it really useful for anything.

Sort of. They are given the lock and are finding the key. Yes sneaking up and choking the guy unconscious with no warning was allways going to become the tactical choice unless you put emphasis on the other aspects.

Given my million years training dinosaurs to fight astronaughts king hitting the P.O.S. is probably the most common and most effective response.

And because if it didnt happen on youtube it diddnt happen. Here is the ATM prank and real responses by people. Same sort of idea we have a predito a victim and onlookers.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OUehfnUNLdM&has_verified=1&layout=tablet&client=mv-google

I am personally very hesitant to act on a guy who reacts that way.

And they spar by the way.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-H06zhWh2jo

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You have got to be kidding me. Sparring is detrimental. Kata is a valuable tool.

Do you do kata in a car?

If you're interested in kata and it's value and merits in the martial arts, my suggestion would be to begin a separate thread so as not to deter from this one.

 

[drop bear]

If you're interested in kata and it's value and merits in the martial arts, my suggestion would be to begin a separate thread so as not to deter from this one.

Lol consider it started.

This should be fun.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/17...imental-if-you-pro-kata-not-sake-realism.html

 

[MJS]

FATS training was really cool when I did it. I have quite a few opportunities in the police academy and afterwards. Definitely not a holodeck but still pretty cool!

I've used one of those machines before too! It was pretty cool. IMO, the majority of it is the mindset. Sure, the 'bad guy' isn't really going to kill you when he shoots at you, but like any RBSD type training, your head has to be in the right frame of mind.