Memorization in the Traditional Martial Arts

[Xue Sheng]

I am not disagreeing with much of this, but based on the title

Memorization in the Traditional Martial Arts

Lets not forget that part of that statement is "Traditional" which is defined as "existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established."

Don't memorize if you do not want, no one is forcing you, don't know lineages, names and dates, if you do not want, it is most likely not important to SD, but it can be if you find something from a previous practitioner in the lineage that is helpful (example, a taijiquan posture that was an elbow strike to Yang Banhou that most do not know, or a couple other rather nasty applications in Xingyiquan). If you do not want any part of this, don't pursue it, but please don't belittle or berate others who do.

But ultimately in Traditional martial arts, forms and memorization goes away, and you just respond as needed. But this takes a long time and there is more to it that the simple memorization of forms.

But with that said, I truly enjoy knowing the history of the styles I have trained, but as for knowing all the posture names, I do not know all of them (Ok I knew them in Xingyiquan), but I have decided that I really should for at least the Yang style long form, and possibly Chen style forms. Makes it easier to talk to old Chinese guys about things..... however I am talking both English translation and Chinese name. But I understand this is not for everyone and I never expected any of my past students to know the names and I will not expect it when I get back to teaching in the future

 

[MadMartigan]

The only reason for memorization, is to free your mind up to focus on what is really important

I'm just angry that I could only hit the agree button once. This is what I harp on almost every class... just put forward far more articulately that I've ever said it.

 

[skribs]

Step two is going beyond memorizing. Why? Why am I in this position, when doing this technique? Why am I transitioning to the next stance and the next position? What is happening? As I make these movements, in these stances, what is happening in my body? What are the real world applications of these movements? Why are these moves grouped together? Why are they in this order?

In my opinion, there is no answer (or at least no good answer) to most of these questions in Taekwondo. A big part of it is that the Taekwondo forms were literally chopped up and rearranged from the Karate forms, so there quite literally is no reason why they're in a certain order or grouping. The "real-world" application requires modification, as the primary purpose appears to be aesthetics. And that's the answer to the first question: Why am in this position? It looks good.

The only question with an answer that has any martial meaning is "As I make these movements, in these stances, what is happening in my body?" Even then, it's not a 1-to-1 with direct martial application. This wouldn't matter as much to me if the forms weren't so detailed in how each move is supposed to be performed. If there was wiggle room for interpretation in the execution of the form, it would make sense. But that would contradict the attention-to-detail focus that Taekwondo places on learning the form.

 

[MadMartigan]

I love memorizing patterns, and the greatest tool to do that is repetition. I've practieand taught Chong Ji (our 1st form) so many thousands of times, I doubt I could forget it if I tried.

I'll be like the old person with Alzheimer's in the seniors home that can still play complicated piano music... I'll just constantly be trying to kick and punch... probably end up in isolation if I do though... so maybe that's not a good thing...

In seriousness, I love the memorization of core movements and principles. What I see as distracting from that purpose is conflating complex, pre-arranged self defense demonstrations with real knowledge and skill. I've seen someone perform a bunch of these on a 6th Dan Exam. It's a nice show, but in my opinion has very little use.

Patterns and fundamental movement are to show technique. If you want to evaluate self defense ability, make it live... with real resisting opponents.
Just cause I can memorize and rehearse a self defense 'dance' has nothing to do with my competence in these movement's application.

 

[wab25]

A big part of it is that the Taekwondo forms were literally chopped up and rearranged from the Karate forms, so there quite literally is no reason why they're in a certain order or grouping.

TKD forms started as the Karate forms. They were changed a number of times. But, just because they were changed around, does not mean that they were changed around randomly and for no reason. Shotokan was not the only influence on TKD. I rather think that as they found better ways to combine the different Korean and Japanese arts, they found better ways to communicate what they found.

I believe most TKD schools teach the same form first. (yes some schools use this set of forms and another school uses another set... but those sets have a first form) That first form is taught first for a reason. Why? If all the changes that were made, were really random, it would not matter which form you start with or what order you learn them in. But, there is a first form and there is an order. And when a school changes their particular order, hopefully, it is done by someone who has really good reasons for doing so.

The "real-world" application requires modification, as the primary purpose appears to be aesthetics. And that's the answer to the first question: Why am in this position? It looks good.

Seriously... the stances and moves done in kata / forms are not there "because it looks good." The most important reason that is not true is that they don't "look good." There is a reason that when something is professionally choreographed, they do not use stances and moves from the kata / forms. They do not look good. Go watch a Ballet class, Jazz dance class, Ballroom dance class to see what looks good.

The only question with an answer that has any martial meaning is "As I make these movements, in these stances, what is happening in my body?" Even then, it's not a 1-to-1 with direct martial application.

There is a direct 1-to-1 relationship with the important parts of the form / kata and martial application. Good structure, good balance, transitioning on balance, body unification, power generation... all have direct use in martial application.

What is the first form, taught to beginners when they start TKD at your school? Bonus, can you share a link on youtube of someone doing that form similar to the way your school does it? I would like to see what "literally chopped up and rearranged from the Karate forms, so there quite literally is no reason why they're in a certain order or grouping" actually looks like.

 

[dancingalone]

What is the first form, taught to beginners when they start TKD at your school? Bonus, can you share a link on youtube of someone doing that form similar to the way your school does it? I would like to see what "literally chopped up and rearranged from the Karate forms, so there quite literally is no reason why they're in a certain order or grouping" actually looks like.

I am not Skribs, but assuming you don't know the answer already...

The Kukkiwon forms start with Taegeuk 1-8. There is a somewhat older series call Palgwe, also numbered 1-8. The Chang Hon forms go from Chonji, Tan Gun, Do San, Won Hyo, Yul Gok, Joong Gun, Toi Gye, Hwa Rang, and so on.

Lots of examples on YouTube.... So you can then compare to the Pinan/Heian/Pyung Ahn.

 

[Hanshi]

Memorization has always been my greatest weakness. Tae kwon do was the worst for some reason. Of written tests the two I recall best were judo and yusool and incredibly I got most answers right. But I also forget much quicker than I learn and memory issues include patterns and forms. It took time and much effort for me but I managed to learn most terminology, then organizational changes rendered them moot and introduced brand new ones. Yes, it was overwhelming, in my case, and you will do okay by re-reading the posts above and not getting sidetracked.

 

[dvcochran]

I am not Skribs, but assuming you don't know the answer already...

The Kukkiwon forms start with Taegeuk 1-8. There is a somewhat older series call Palgwe, also numbered 1-8. The Chang Hon forms go from Chonji, Tan Gun, Do San, Won Hyo, Yul Gok, Joong Gun, Toi Gye, Hwa Rang, and so on.

Lots of examples on YouTube.... So you can then compare to the Pinan/Heian/Pyung Ahn.

Good list; to add to it most TKD schools have Kicho hyungs, usually 1,2, & 3.

 

[dancingalone]

Good list; to add to it most TKD schools have Kicho hyungs, usually 1,2, & 3.

The analogs to the Kicho forms are the Taikyoku kata originated within Shotokan and then adopted with some variance in other karate styles.

 

[wab25]

So here are Palgwe 1 and Taegeuk 1:

In my opinion, there is no answer (or at least no good answer) to most of these questions in Taekwondo. A big part of it is that the Taekwondo forms were literally chopped up and rearranged from the Karate forms, so there quite literally is no reason why they're in a certain order or grouping.

Sorry, but I don't see it that way. In both of those forms (I don't remember which one your school teaches first) there is a lot going on... and a lot to learn. First off, lots of body unification and power generation. They both even use weight transfer as a way to generate power.

Both start out with a down block and punch... just like Shotokan. Could they be saying something similar to Shotokan about the relationship between block and attack? I think they are... In all cases, you could be blocking an attack and then counter attacking... or clearing their guard to create an opening and attacking... or rotating the other guy around to expose his back for your attack... or clearing away a grab attempt and throwing... any number of things.

Now, they each use a different punch to follow... Why? I don't buy someone rolled the dice and randomly got the next technique. One seems to show circular power generation (down block) followed by linear power generation (straight punch) while the other seems to show circular power generation followed by circular power generation, only the first is inside out and the second is outside in.

To me... it looks like there was some (a lot of) thought put into these forms. I find a lot to unpack in these two forms, a lot to find, a lot experiment with... and a lot they could teach me. Step 1: I need to memorize the pattern so that I can do the pattern without thought. Step 2: feel the effects on my body as I move through the pattern. Step 3: examine those effects and how I can initiate those effects, instead of having the form cause them. Step 4: find practical uses for those effects and experiment.

If I weren't already focused on learning Danzan Ryu and Shotokan, with a smattering of Aikido and Daito Ryu... I would love to learn TKD. Man is there a lot in those forms to learn and digest. I find no randomness and nothing chopped up in those two forms.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In Marine Corps boot camp, I learned the history, physical characteristics, and nomenclature of my issued weapon. In my case in 1979, it was the M16A1. I know the weight of the weapon without ammunition, I know how it is described (a lightweight, air-cooled, gas-operated, magazine-fed, shoulder weapon, capable of fully automatic or aimed semi-automatic fire). I know the rate of fire, the effective range, bullet drop with ball ammo over various distances and so on. I know the names of all the parts, and I know the correct method to field-strip and reassemble the weapon, as well as immediate action for stoppages and other failures. I know when it was accepted into the Marine Corps and who designed it.

Does it matter? Well, Marine Corps boot camp is 12 weeks long. A relatively short time to shove a lot of information into a person's head and train their body for war. The Corps apparently thinks this information is valuable, or they'd strip it out. By graduation, I knew a lot about how to effectively use the weapon, and a lot about how to deal with any problems that might arise in the field.

Likewise, my lineage of Isshinryu teaches a lot about various kata. Not just how to perform the movements, but also the names of the basic exercises and stances in Japanese and English (neko ashi dachi, or cat stance, etc). The physical count of movements might be taught, but typically it's not required for students to know. Some questions that might be on written tests might be "how many kicks in Seisan" for example, but if the student knows the kata, they can easily count them out.

Does it matter? Maybe, maybe not. It is traditional, so that's a good reason as far as I am concerned. I understand that some people reject the "because we've always done it that way" reasoning. I would say that like knowing the nomenclature of my M16A1, it helps to be able to point out to a student that a particular kick is a 'mae geri (front snap kick, ball of foot)' and not a 'shoba geri' (front heel thrust kick), for example. If the student has the terminology, they know what you mean and can correct themselves.

As to memorization, I typically start children out simply learning the motions of the kata. I don't focus on precision at first, just learn the moves and get through it. Then precision. Then breathing and balance and weight transfer and power. Then speed which comes from repetition of correct kata. Along the way, I like to sprinkle in bunkai (application), mostly the simplest surface level bunkai (why are we doing this block here in the kata, why do we fall forward after doing this kick in the kata, etc). Advanced students, usually adults, but sometimes adept younger students, will be taught more advanced applications and learn exercises that take bits and pieces out of a given kata and apply them in more realistic scenarios with an uke.

So in my estimation, rote memorization is a solid basis for training in my dojo's traditional martial arts.

 

[Gyakuto]

‘Memorisation’ suggests referring to a body of knowledge and purposefully committing it to memory. I think this is rare in martial arts and most knowledge is acquired effortlessly by continuous and regular exposure to that knowledge. I think it’s important if you wish to be taken seriously! What happens if an interested party asks you all about your art, it’s provenance and key elements? If you can’t respond, to these enquiries, credibly, then you may seem superficial in your practise and possibly lose a potential student as a consequence

 

[isshinryuronin]

Just cause I can memorize and rehearse a self defense 'dance' has nothing to do with my competence in these movement's application.

See wab25's comment below:

There is a direct 1-to-1 relationship with the important parts of the form / kata and martial application. Good structure, good balance, transitioning on balance, body unification, power generation... all have direct use in martial application.

This is very true - without these elements no application will work well.

Additionally, if you practice forms, understanding the true, advanced, combat application (bunkai), visualizing the specific SD situation at hand, and perform the techniques with intent, forms will aid in an actual fight (mentally & physically). Many of the techniques will then be suitable for combat. A number of them may not, due to being outdated for today's attackers, or because the true meaning has been lost or corrupted.

If the student has the terminology, they know what you mean

Yes, but I quoted you just to say "Nice to see you back, not having seen you post for some time. Hope all is well."

 

[cane56]

In my opinion.... step one is memorization. It does not matter how much you memorize, if all you are doing is memorizing more things, that is still step one.

Step two is going beyond memorizing. Why? Why am I in this position, when doing this technique? Why am I transitioning to the next stance and the next position? What is happening? As I make these movements, in these stances, what is happening in my body? What are the real world applications of these movements? Why are these moves grouped together? Why are they in this order?

Most arts have some form of step forward, lunge punch. Your right foot starts out behind, with you right hand in chamber. You step forward with your right foot and throw a straight right punch, leaving you in a forward stance, right foot and right fist forward. Step one is memorizing all the details, all the angles, all the positions.... Step two: why are you stepping forward when you punch? What is accomplished by that step? What can it help you to learn and practice? What can you take from that forward step, and apply elsewhere.... even to things that are not a punch?

The step forward in the lunge punch, teaches you to make an explosive forward step, it covers a lot of ground, it teaches to to end your forward motion on balance without over extending, it teaches you to use your feet to maximize reach without sacrificing your posture, it teaches you body unification, it shows you how to use your legs driving into the ground to add power to your strike, it shows how transferring your weight generates power and how to connect the leg power, the upper body power and the power generated by transferring your weight... (and a lot more) How can you use those things in other areas? Why does the lunge punch come after the down block in the kata? Why does it come before the next technique?

Then, look at why those moves are in that order together. If you think of a kata / form as a paragraph... what is the point of that paragraph? What is it saying and what can you learn from it? Why do students study this paragraph first before this other paragraph? What does the first kata you learn have to do with the next kata?

None of these questions I am asking, are answered by memorizing the angle of the bend in my elbow. These are the things you can focus on, once you no longer have to focus on what are all the angles of all of my joints, what is the next stance, what is the next technique...

The only reason for memorization, is to free your mind up to focus on what is really important.

Without Thought!

 

[_Simon_]

So here are Palgwe 1 and Taegeuk 1:

Sorry, but I don't see it that way. In both of those forms (I don't remember which one your school teaches first) there is a lot going on... and a lot to learn. First off, lots of body unification and power generation. They both even use weight transfer as a way to generate power.

Both start out with a down block and punch... just like Shotokan. Could they be saying something similar to Shotokan about the relationship between block and attack? I think they are... In all cases, you could be blocking an attack and then counter attacking... or clearing their guard to create an opening and attacking... or rotating the other guy around to expose his back for your attack... or clearing away a grab attempt and throwing... any number of things.

Now, they each use a different punch to follow... Why? I don't buy someone rolled the dice and randomly got the next technique. One seems to show circular power generation (down block) followed by linear power generation (straight punch) while the other seems to show circular power generation followed by circular power generation, only the first is inside out and the second is outside in.

To me... it looks like there was some (a lot of) thought put into these forms. I find a lot to unpack in these two forms, a lot to find, a lot experiment with... and a lot they could teach me. Step 1: I need to memorize the pattern so that I can do the pattern without thought. Step 2: feel the effects on my body as I move through the pattern. Step 3: examine those effects and how I can initiate those effects, instead of having the form cause them. Step 4: find practical uses for those effects and experiment.

If I weren't already focused on learning Danzan Ryu and Shotokan, with a smattering of Aikido and Daito Ryu... I would love to learn TKD. Man is there a lot in those forms to learn and digest. I find no randomness and nothing chopped up in those two forms.

Agreed, great post! Love how TKDins do knife hand blocks... And dang, I actually love how these videos were filmed and put together... gonna watch this channel through now!

 

[dvcochran]

So here are Palgwe 1 and Taegeuk 1:

Sorry, but I don't see it that way. In both of those forms (I don't remember which one your school teaches first) there is a lot going on... and a lot to learn. First off, lots of body unification and power generation. They both even use weight transfer as a way to generate power.

Both start out with a down block and punch... just like Shotokan. Could they be saying something similar to Shotokan about the relationship between block and attack? I think they are... In all cases, you could be blocking an attack and then counter attacking... or clearing their guard to create an opening and attacking... or rotating the other guy around to expose his back for your attack... or clearing away a grab attempt and throwing... any number of things.

Now, they each use a different punch to follow... Why? I don't buy someone rolled the dice and randomly got the next technique. One seems to show circular power generation (down block) followed by linear power generation (straight punch) while the other seems to show circular power generation followed by circular power generation, only the first is inside out and the second is outside in.

To me... it looks like there was some (a lot of) thought put into these forms. I find a lot to unpack in these two forms, a lot to find, a lot experiment with... and a lot they could teach me. Step 1: I need to memorize the pattern so that I can do the pattern without thought. Step 2: feel the effects on my body as I move through the pattern. Step 3: examine those effects and how I can initiate those effects, instead of having the form cause them. Step 4: find practical uses for those effects and experiment.

If I weren't already focused on learning Danzan Ryu and Shotokan, with a smattering of Aikido and Daito Ryu... I would love to learn TKD. Man is there a lot in those forms to learn and digest. I find no randomness and nothing chopped up in those two forms.

Spot on.