Traditional HRD Syllabus:pros vs. cons?

[glad2bhere]

Dear Luflo:

In the Kwan to which I belong a person can be introduced to groundwork anywhere along the curriculum. A person is actually responsible for demonstrating prowess in groundwork during 3rd dan as preparation for 4th dan. This is the time that a person is also responsible for cane, so the positions are related to that cane work, plus without the cane. These situation are called "Positions of Disadvantage" and include all sorts of grabs, kneeling positions, supine and recumbant positions and so forth. Since we are talking about HRD here, if you look at Chpater 9 of Joo Bang Lees' (HRD Vol 2) you will see material very much like that which we would do in YMK Hapkido. As I say, don't expect to see tons and tons of material but I think you will recognize some things that look a lot like the BJJ stuff. As I say, I don't have a problem with people introducing groundwork, since it is already in the curriculum. But I would hope folks would learn the Korean material first and use THAT as a foundation for maybe adding things (or polishing things) later on. Does this make sense?

BTW: Since I am not a HRD practitioner I am at a disadvantage about where this ground material comes into that curriculum. I looked at the HRD students manual and saw some references to techniques done from a "seated position" but no specific references to "Positions of Disadvantage". Thats not to say that the book is outdated, that the print is small and I might have missed it, or that the curriculum has been revised in some way. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

Mr. Sims, might I inquire which volume you have? Is that the book with the orange cover or the red cover?

 

[floweringknight]

Larry - I agree with you. The logic behind the introduction and progression is sound as well. One of my concerns is this: There is already SO MUCH knowledge in this art, sometimes it is overwhelming. I'm sure you have experienced this before. I know I have. In addition, yellow belt is VERY difficult as is. Maybe more grappling in orange belt; maybe a lot more. Hmmmm.

Bruce - There is ground fighting in this art, but very limited. There are techniques for defense from a sitting position, laying down (on back), from being mounted, side headlock, etc. My problem, and I think this is part of what Bob is alluding to: These are great techniques, but they don't help to teach the "flow" of a ground fight very well. I mean the few moments leading up to a particular technique being utilized; the "set-up" if you will. Thoughts?

 

[floweringknight]

Bruce - That would be the red book I believe. These techniques are part of the core for 2nd degree BB. Along with the other disadvantaged positions / situations are defense with only one hand, defense against multiple opponents and empty hand defense against weapons, among others. Have you seen the orange book? It is awesome and highly recommended.

 

[shesulsa]

It could also be duely noted that those three volumes DO NOT contain the entire HRD syllabus.

 

[glad2bhere]

My apologies to everyone. I am usually such a stickler about providing citations and I missed it completely.

The book I am referencing is "The Ancient martial Art of Hwa Rang Do" (vol 2) by Joo Bang Lee (ISBN: 0-89750-066-0). Chapter 9 starts on pg 115.

The other campanion books are the first volume (ISBN 0-89750-023-5)
and volume 3 (ISBN 0-89750-070-9).

Since these are copyrighted with a publishing date of 1979 I am dating myself a bit. And SHESULA is correct that these were not meant to be exhaustive catalogs of all HRD techniques. Once again let me say that I share this only because I think that a starting point for this sort of material needs to start with an understanding of this material and then move forward to additional material if thats what people want.

BTW: Note to SHESULA:

One thing I never see discussed is how female students might feel about such intense contact with males on the mat. I can't imagine that mature women would have much of a problem but I wonder if younger women, perhaps even adolescents might be a bit uncomfortable with many of the straddling positions. Do you ever consider this when you are training? Have women commented about this issue to you? Are there things that could be recommended to make this sort of work more ammenable to young ladies? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Floweringknight:

"....My problem, and I think this is part of what Bob is alluding to: These are great techniques, but they don't help to teach the "flow" of a ground fight very well. I mean the few moments leading up to a particular technique being utilized; the "set-up" if you will. Thoughts?...."

EXACTLY!!! This is why I took the position that I did from the start. As I see it the problem is rarely an issue with WHAT is being taught, but HOW it is being taught. Therefore the "change" that I see that needs to be discussed in ANY curriculum (not just HRD) are the intentions, or priorities or goals of the TEACHER and not always go straight to the material. In this way, then, there are Positions of Disadvantage already in HRD. The students need to learn these positions for the art, thats true, but maybe we have better ways of teaching these positions and THATS what needs to be looked at. Then, after a person has learned these techniques, if they choose to go on and learn a lot more for themselves they have the foundation for integrating what they learn somewhere else back into the HRD material and make the art better. What I am against is someone looking at the HRD material and judging that "this sucks" and simply going out and bringing in material from somewhere else that is thought better. I have seen exactly this same thing happen with all sorts of Korean material such as weaponry, philosophy, history and all it guarentees is that the original Korean material is disappearing in deference to whatever the current fad is. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

One thing I never see discussed is how female students might feel about such intense contact with males on the mat. I can't imagine that mature women would have much of a problem but I wonder if younger women, perhaps even adolescents might be a bit uncomfortable with many of the straddling positions. Do you ever consider this when you are training? Have women commented about this issue to you? Are there things that could be recommended to make this sort of work more ammenable to young ladies?

No one here is forced to do anything they're not willing or 'ready' to do. There have been a couple of females that just did not have an interest in grappling - and that's all they would say. Of course, there could be several underlying reasons, such as plain old shyness, trepidation about co-ed grappling, even ANY personal contact, even with other females, also a history.

I should interject here that my instructor has been and continues to be EXCEPTIONAL when it comes to training females. He is very compassionate and knows how and when and where to push and when to stop. That said ....

There are not many women in HRD and fewer that go on to black. I'm not an experienced instructor of adults, but as a female, I'd have to say that whenever a female (or any student, for that matter) shys away from a particular training activiy, it's up to the instructor to find work-arounds. Perhaps have young women train with each other and talk to them privately about how they feel about co-ed floorwork (or whatever it is they fear). For their introduction to co-ed training with this kind of contact, I imagine working with a careful, compassionate and experienced male would probably be a good thing.

But therein lies another problem. Lots of guys just plain old don't want to train with girls/women. And as someone who is no longer a young hottie but, rather, a middle-aged warmie, there can be no facilitation of a female's training nor can she get a whole lot better, until those young male pups are willing to give up the training time to train with them from the attitude that THEY ARE TRAINING WITH ANOTHER STUDENT - no more, no less. Care and consideration should be taken by both parties as to sensitive areas of the anatomy because we do not wish to injure our fellow students and training partners.

I think ground game is even more important for women (and I say this knowing I have a need to work on this more) from a self-defense perspective and, perhaps if it is approached as such, AND it were introduced earlier in training, it might become more appealing to females and co-ed training more acceptable for the males.

Just my humble .02.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Shesule:

What a great post. I don't know how much to make of this except to say that I wish it were discussed more often on these Nets. In fact I would go so far as to say that maybe women training in the Ma deserves an area of its own. The only downside would be, as you say, some discomfort about raising personal issues in a public forum. My first experience was a rather bad one, in that among the first classes I ever participated in the teacher dealt with everybody with the same heavy hand. There were probably a lot of students who might have gotten a lot out of the training but didn't feel as though their feelings were being respected. I think there are a lot of places in training that would get more emphasis except that most teachers have a bit too much pride to admit that they could use some in-put about how to handle certain situations. I know I will probably get some static here but the fact of the matter is that men and women have different needs when training--- certainly at least when they are starting out. Maybe one of these days we can get a thread going on this. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

Mr. Sims et al, there are existing threads on the topic of coed grappling, coed study, training women specifically in various other forums here on MartialTalk. There is a forum here called Women in the Martial Arts. You'll find some topics in there interesting; there are other threads in the General Self Defense forum and other areas.

I encourage everyone here to explore all the forums here on MartialTalk if you haven't already. :asian:

 

[glad2bhere]

Many thanks. I'll look in.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[floweringknight]

"the problem is rarely an issue with WHAT is being taught, but HOW it is being taught. Therefore the "change" that I see that needs to be discussed in ANY curriculum (not just HRD) are the intentions, or priorities or goals of the TEACHER and not always go straight to the material."

I think we are all on the same page on this one! And I believe Larry's point was to introduce this type of training and material earlier in the color belt ranks; as opposed to waiting until the black belt ranks.

 

[lulflo]

Yes Sir.

Precisely what I am going after. I think everyone has something that they are more attuned to. I know there is a ton of knowledge to cover within the ranks but I would like to try to jam it full of more information. If it is possible, why not, its there, you're there...

In response to the "how" it is taught. I have been fortunate enough to have a teacher who uses building blocks and starts at the beginning and adds more and more as the understanding becomes clear. I feel like I always have a challenge, but at the same time, I am able to actually do what is being asked of me. And then my other teacher, who is equally as good, challenges me to a point that makes me push myself to be able to do more than I could have imagined. So I am lucky to have the right teachers who show me "how" to do what is in the curricum. I think that is the only reason I could ever imagine adding to it.

 

[Bob D.]

Wow, I just pulled out the HRD books for the first time in 15 years. Where did the time go?? It's amazing how different I remember them. I don't think these were meant to be student manuals of the syllabus, but maybe an introduction and referance. They're too incomplete, I'd guess only 20% of material to red belt is shown in bits and pieces. Also the bad pictures really show nothing. You would think DJN Lee's technique sloppy judging by the pictures. Anyone that worked with him during that period would assure you it wasn't.
Makes one appreciate the hard work that must have gone into Tedechi's (sp) giant Hapkido book.

 

[glad2bhere]

".....Precisely what I am going after. I think everyone has something that they are more attuned to. I know there is a ton of knowledge to cover within the ranks but I would like to try to jam it full of more information. If it is possible, why not, its there, you're there....."

Okay, then, I must be missing a very important piece of information here. Am I to understand that people are not accountable for information UNTIL a particular grade, or is it that people are restricted to and only allowed to study material at their grade? For instance, we have six weapons in our Kwan. One of these is the sword and a 4th Dan would be accountable for knowing all of the sword material. However, I teach a sword class for quite a few folks and most of them are gueps, not dan-rank. Its not that they "can't" learn the material but rather that they are accountable only once they reach a particular point in their development. Is something else going on here?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[gregzlac]

Do you think that the quality of the art is in its syllabus and quantity of tech's? If you learn the syllabus and can perform the all the tech's to your rank are you doing well? Do you think that if you look like your master in your application it is right? Are the 1st 4 oui bok sul 4 different minor variations of the same tech? Do they need to be changed up to make them more distinct? I think to answer all the questions that everyone has posted about HRD, you should just ask the founder Lee, Joo Bang. And if you are studying a variation of that art then ask that founder because they are then different arts at that point.

 

[glad2bhere]

You know, it would not be an altogether bad thing if some of these leaders took some time out to come to Nets such as this and help out with some of these questions themselves. I often hear the idea of a person with a question going to the individual leader and posing a question to said leader. I have never gotten any indication that any of these leaders are particularly approachable except within the context of some cash event such as a seminar or tournament-- then only in passing. I would think that if these martial traditions are so very important to said leaders that they would designate someone to speak on behalf of the specific art, answer questions, field ideas and otherwise act as liaison between the public and the art.

One of these days I am going to take up that challenge to bring my question directly to the personality involved, and when I don't get a straight answer, have to suffer through a dog-and-pony show about the supremacy of their particular art, endure disparaging remarks about whatever art I practice or have to stave-off some protracted sales pitch, I will be the first to come back to said Net and let the whole world know what happens to those that try to use reason in the face of insufferable Ego. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Paul B]

:roflmao:

I'll give you a dollar and a bottle of iced tea if you do that,Bruce!

 

[floweringknight]

"I think to answer all the questions that everyone has posted about HRD, you should just ask the founder Lee, Joo Bang. And if you are studying a variation of that art then ask that founder because they are then different arts at that point."

The analogy I like to make is this: As a color belt, you are borrowing your teacher's art (way). The easiest and most direct way to learn, in the beginning, is imitation: Doing things as closely as possible to resembling what your teacher is doing (monkey see - monkey do). Eventually, you move beyond mere rote memorization.

Part of the symbology and meaning behind earning your BB is that now you have adapted, etc this art to you! It is now YOUR art. In the long term, your way is going to have differences from everyone else's; including your teacher(s) - i.e. variation! This is how it is supposed to be; this is how the arts continue to grow and evolve. I am different than my teachers; I have different strengths and different weaknesses. Same goes for everyone else. Each generation it changes, grows, evolves, expands. Do Joo Nim did it! Yong Sool Choi did it! Morihei Uyeshiba did it! I think you get the point. If your art (personally) does not continue to grow and evolve (differentiate) beyond your teachers', then you are stunting and retarding your growth as an individual, as well as a martial artist. It's like a new branch growing on another, older branch. The new branch cannot grow exactly where the older branch is growing; it must grow "out of" the older branch, in it's proper time and place. The former being an extention of the later.

Please don't misconstrue this to mean that I am saying that a person's art should not resemble his or her teachers art in any way. It's like finger prints; everyone interprets, analyzes, and understands things in a little different light. I'll call it perspective...

Please excuse the ambiguous ramblings of a low ranking novice...

 

[floweringknight]

OK - For SNBD and others: What do you like about the traditional HRD syllabus? What ar the merits?