Memorization in the Traditional Martial Arts

[MadMartigan]

The role of memorization in traditional arts, the positive and the negative ...would be a great topic for a new thread.

As geezer pointed out in another thread. I too find this topic interesting.

When it comes to pursuing your art at the higher levels; how important is memorization?
This can be in the form of memorizing written history, or increasingly complicated self defense or sparring sequences. I'll go 1st.

For my personal belief, I don't find memorizing how many moves and who a pattern is named after very compelling. My ability to recite historical trivia by rote does not translate into effective self defense ability or physical mastery of techniques. I think that tests should focus on physical skills, and technical proficiency (obviously this does not apply to internal MAs). I'd go further as well and say that an over reliance on step sparring and supplemental blocking patterns (outside the core forms for the art) have very little actual utility (obviously open to compelling arguements to support their use).

This goes with an understanding that some memorization is very important. Not just so you know what things are called, but for the mental workout as well.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'm not sure this is a problem at all in Okinawan/Japanese/Korean TMA. CMA may be a different story in those styles that have poetic (once purposeful) names for each and every combination series. Parker's Kenpo, especially early on, had many technique series with CMA-like names to be memorized for each belt - reduced in later years.

There are not that many individual techniques to know the names of. Ten year olds can learn them. To learn a 35-55 move form every four months or so takes some work, but contributes to the final product of expertise and execution if done properly. I have never memorized how many moves a particular kata has. Why? It's either short, medium or long. (in other words - quick or excruciating ) Either way, you do it.

Every hobby or vocation involves memorization. Sailing has its own terminology of sail and boat parts and maneuvers, and a bunch of confusing knots (for me) to use for specific tasks. Cops have to memorize various codes and meanings like statutes and radio calls, 10-4, policy on various engagement and force levels allowed, gender and race sensitivity policy and techniques and the list goes on.

Knowing the historical background of TMA is not "trivial." Understanding the past helps us understand what and why we are doing in the present. Without understanding its concepts and premises, the philosophic or spiritual side, the appreciation of the history, the art disappears and all you have is fighting. If that's all that is important to you, there's MMA.

There is an old term in MA, dating back to the Samurai: "Bunbu Ryodo" or Bunbu Ichi" which basically means to learn both pen and sword (bun=literature, bu=war). My tests for certain belt levels include a written component (12-15% of the total points). Info is introduced every few months and I believe the academic part aids in understanding the art, and ultimately, spurring the student to further achievement.

If you just want a one night stand, you don't even have to know the person's name - but if you want a long lasting serious relationship, you want to know as much as possible, don't you?

 

[MadMartigan]

I have never memorized how many moves a particular kata has.

This is what I was referring to. I know of several (completely independent of each other) TKD schools that require their students to recite verbatim the name, how many movements, and the history of every pattern from the text book for gradings (the rote recitation I was referring to).
I agree with understanding the history and having a written segment could definitely have some use.

 

[skribs]

I think memorization serves a great purpose...to a point. I feel that it's most important for older adults as a brain exercise, or for kids to learn the attention-to-detail that goes along with memorization points. Learning how to do a kata or poomsae properly takes a lot of attention to detail, and dedication to those details in order to make them a habit.

The third piece is that memorization is good for beginners to know what to practice. You may forget a move here or there, but if you have to practice #1-8 punches, you'll remember to practice them. If you have to memorize a form, you'll practice it (or you'll take forever to rank up). On the other hand, humans are better with names than with numbers. "Front kick" and "roundhouse kick" are easier to learn than "#1 kick" and "#2 kick". This is why computers have protocols like DNS, which translate names (for humans) to numbers (for computers).

Even with the benefits, I feel its best if memorization takes a back seat to things like drilling and sparring, especially as you get more advanced. I can come up with 8 combinations of kicks for you to memorize. Or I can come up with 4 kicks and 4 different ways of using them together, and I've taught you 16 potential combinations. Alternatively, you can take rote memorized concepts from before and add to them. For example, modify a take-down using a different leverage point, or mix in different techniques into the same combination.

If memorization is to be an important piece of the art, then it must be consistent. If you're taught "Self Defense #1" as a take-down ending with a limb destruction, then it should always be a limb destruction. It shouldn't be a limb destruction one day, and a strike the next day (unless modification is allowed/encouraged). Students shouldn't have to guess on the test.

 

[skribs]

This is what I was referring to. I know of several (completely independent of each other) TKD schools that require their students to recite verbatim the name, how many movements, and the history of every pattern from the text book for gradings (the rote recitation I was referring to).

Knowing the number of moves would be easy if you count them while you're doing them. We do this for the first several forms (which all follow similar patterns), but at the higher levels it gets fuzzy what the count is (because do you count the technique or the combination?). We don't expect students to know the form has 20 steps. We just tell them over and over again that it has 20 steps.

Of course, we don't have a textbook or any history on our patterns.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

so you know what things are called,

- The technique name is not important.
- There is no standard way to execute a certain technique.

For example, whether you want to call a "hip throw", or "waist lift" is not important. Whether you use your hip to bounce up your opponent's belly, or you use your arm to life your opponent's waist is also not important.

 

[MadMartigan]

The name of a technique is not important

True...... but have you ever told a group of kids to perform x technique and just get a sea of blank stares?
It doesn't matter what it's called; as long as it's called something (consistently for learning).

 

[dvcochran]

Knowing the number of moves would be easy if you count them while you're doing them. We do this for the first several forms (which all follow similar patterns), but at the higher levels it gets fuzzy what the count is (because do you count the technique or the combination?). We don't expect students to know the form has 20 steps. We just tell them over and over again that it has 20 steps.

Of course, we don't have a textbook or any history on our patterns.

Counting can definitely be a double edged sword for beginners but it is usually observable. It can really help a person sort out the mental overload early on. But if you can trip a beginner up on Ki Cho Hyung II Bu (basic form1) by counting backwards from 20 after 2-3 weeks you know they are learning using the wrong concepts. It is a great lesson tool.

 

[skribs]

- The technique name is not important.
- There is no standard way to execute a certain technique.

For example, whether you want to call a "hip throw", or "waist lift" is not important. Whether you use your hip to bounce up your opponent's belly, or you use your arm to life your opponent's waist is also not important.

Technique name is not important...until it is. It's important for techniques to have a consistent name within a school, so that your students know what you're talking about. It's important for higher-level students to know and use the consistent name, to reinforce it with the beginners.

Details matter. An advanced student should know which details are important and which can be fudged, and in what ways they can. A beginner doesn't know enough to know that. So you need a consistent message of what is important.

In computers, "Close" and "Exit" often mean the same thing. But if a program says "Exit", and I document that you should "Close the program", most users are going to look for the Close button and then claim the program doesn't work or that my document doesn't work.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have trouble remembering names, dates, names of techniques, and something else but I can't remember.

 

[_Simon_]

Yeah I feel it would more beneficial to (at higher grades) transition solely from just memorising more and more sequences to deepening your understanding of principles and how to apply them in not only different ways but in a less structured and free way.

 

[wab25]

I have seen way too often... that people confuse memorization with understanding or mastery. A student will want to learn Bassai Dai... they are shown the sequence and with a few days, can do the whole sequence. At this point, they assume that they have learned Bassai Dai and are ready to learn the next one.

The problem is that you can't learn Bassai Dai, until you have studied it. You can't study it while you are thinking about what the next move is supposed to be. Memorizing the sequence, is the first step. Once you can do the moves in the right sequence, you can now start to study the kata. Before, you were not studying it, you were learning the order and sequence.

Just because someone can recite from memory, all the words from a scientific theory, does not mean that they have any understanding at all about the theory. What does it prove, why is it important, how is it used, where should it be applied, what problems does it solve, what problems does it not solve, how should it be used with other theories, what are the real world implications..... These things come after you learn to pronounce the words in the right order. These come through study, experimentation and lots of work. Anyone can memorize f=ma^2. Not everyone understands the significance or how to apply that.

 

[Buka]

In my opinion it doesn't matter if it's a traditional Art or an eclectic one, there's a bootload of things to remember. I always taught my guys the "why's and the exceptions to the rules. Heck, right there is a ton to remember. Throw in everything else.....damn.

 

[dvcochran]

I have seen way too often... that people confuse memorization with understanding or mastery. A student will want to learn Bassai Dai... they are shown the sequence and with a few days, can do the whole sequence. At this point, they assume that they have learned Bassai Dai and are ready to learn the next one.

The problem is that you can't learn Bassai Dai, until you have studied it. You can't study it while you are thinking about what the next move is supposed to be. Memorizing the sequence, is the first step. Once you can do the moves in the right sequence, you can now start to study the kata. Before, you were not studying it, you were learning the order and sequence.

Just because someone can recite from memory, all the words from a scientific theory, does not mean that they have any understanding at all about the theory. What does it prove, why is it important, how is it used, where should it be applied, what problems does it solve, what problems does it not solve, how should it be used with other theories, what are the real world implications..... These things come after you learn to pronounce the words in the right order. These come through study, experimentation and lots of work. Anyone can memorize f=ma^2. Not everyone understands the significance or how to apply that.

Fully, fully agree.
This is a very hard thing for some people to grasp. Humans are just curious creatures when it comes to learning things; we all process different things at different rates.
Even people who take a boat load of classes from the beginning of their training need time to for the process to gel and mentally assemble what they have learned. Some people get this and hang on until the mental process catches up. Some people do think 'I know the pattern(s) so I am good. But man oh man they are missing so much. And I believe it is the best stuff.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

As far as i am concerned, as long as you remmeber how to do what ever it is, and remmeber sufficent enough detail to describe it remmebering the specfics isnt really improtant, if everyone knows what you are talking about the exact details arent improtant in day to day usage. Plus, a lot of this is in a diffrent langauge which may or may not have diffrent translations or be really complciated or you arent able to learn. (not everyone can learn even words in another langauge)

this is generally where i end up in tyring to describe my exercise routines as i dont know the names for anything and its sufficent enough to shove a close picture and explain whats diffrent. Not really a issue until i need to explain it to someone else, and then i do what i just wrote.

 

[skribs]

I have seen way too often... that people confuse memorization with understanding or mastery. A student will want to learn Bassai Dai... they are shown the sequence and with a few days, can do the whole sequence. At this point, they assume that they have learned Bassai Dai and are ready to learn the next one.

The problem is that you can't learn Bassai Dai, until you have studied it. You can't study it while you are thinking about what the next move is supposed to be. Memorizing the sequence, is the first step. Once you can do the moves in the right sequence, you can now start to study the kata. Before, you were not studying it, you were learning the order and sequence.

Just because someone can recite from memory, all the words from a scientific theory, does not mean that they have any understanding at all about the theory. What does it prove, why is it important, how is it used, where should it be applied, what problems does it solve, what problems does it not solve, how should it be used with other theories, what are the real world implications..... These things come after you learn to pronounce the words in the right order. These come through study, experimentation and lots of work. Anyone can memorize f=ma^2. Not everyone understands the significance or how to apply that.

Although it can still be deeper while being memorization. For example:
1. Memorize the basic steps and moves
2. Memorize each chamber position
3. Memorize each stance and the details of the stance (i.e. how far apart your feet are in X and Z, where each foot points, etc).
4. Memorize the timing of each combination
5. Memorize the breathing pattern of the form

You can memorize more and more details. The way I put it is that at the white & yellow belt level, there might be 5 details for each technique (3 details for stance, 2 details for the execution of the technique). But at my level, there are over 30 details for each technique in a form. This includes every major joint in both the chamber and completed position of the technique, as well as the path of travel in between.

Getting all these details right takes a lot more than a few days.

 

[skribs]

As far as i am concerned, as long as you remmeber how to do what ever it is, and remmeber sufficent enough detail to describe it remmebering the specfics isnt really improtant, if everyone knows what you are talking about the exact details arent improtant in day to day usage.

I've been gone for a while. How much formal training do you have at this point?

I remember one of your first posts was about punches, and how you received injury from doing hook punches wrong. It was pointed out a few specific details you could improve on to not injure yourself while doing those punches. Details are very important.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Although it can still be deeper while being memorization. For example:
1. Memorize the basic steps and moves
2. Memorize each chamber position
3. Memorize each stance and the details of the stance (i.e. how far apart your feet are in X and Z, where each foot points, etc).
4. Memorize the timing of each combination
5. Memorize the breathing pattern of the form

You can memorize more and more details. The way I put it is that at the white & yellow belt level, there might be 5 details for each technique (3 details for stance, 2 details for the execution of the technique). But at my level, there are over 30 details for each technique in a form. This includes every major joint in both the chamber and completed position of the technique, as well as the path of travel in between.

Getting all these details right takes a lot more than a few days.

I definitely agree with your concluding remark (though I think we all agree it's a major understatement), and the elements listed are important, but I have a different take on your numbered methodology. It centers on the word "memorize." It seems to be used here as a deliberate mental function. While there is some memorizing to be done in TMA, I am of the persuasion that most learning is of a more organic nature. In other words, the body is teaching itself how to do the moves thru repetition, body feel and guidance by the instructor.

The real learning is done internally, on a more "semi-conscious" level. You practice, and weeks, years or decades later, you realize you've got it. It's just there. (There's an ancient parable by Lao Tsu called the Night Colored Pearl that illustrates this, but I won't bore anyone with it now.)

Much modern teaching is very structured, especially in Korean styles (from what I've read in this forum.) Formal curriculum, manuals, doing things by the numbers. This may be better for the Organization than the student - keeps things standard. You know the saying, "If it's not in print, it's not true." However, a century+ ago, hardly anything in karate was in print. There was not even a formal terminology! Yet, great masters arose out of that system.

I posted earlier that after 50 years, I have no idea of how many moves each of my forms have. Never bothered or saw the need to memorize this. My only perception of the length of each is how tired I am when I'm done. Similarly, I have no idea of how many "details for each technique" there are. 20? 40? 60? I suppose I could take a pen and make a very long list, but why? It would be good filler if I was writing a MA book,

All serious students try learn, and make a deliberate effort to do so. But sometimes that effort is too deliberate and gets in the way of learning - just as one's brain sometimes gets in the way of performance. More doing and less thinking can often accomplish more.

 

[wab25]

Although it can still be deeper while being memorization. For example:
1. Memorize the basic steps and moves
2. Memorize each chamber position
3. Memorize each stance and the details of the stance (i.e. how far apart your feet are in X and Z, where each foot points, etc).
4. Memorize the timing of each combination
5. Memorize the breathing pattern of the form

You can memorize more and more details. The way I put it is that at the white & yellow belt level, there might be 5 details for each technique (3 details for stance, 2 details for the execution of the technique). But at my level, there are over 30 details for each technique in a form. This includes every major joint in both the chamber and completed position of the technique, as well as the path of travel in between.

Getting all these details right takes a lot more than a few days.

In my opinion.... step one is memorization. It does not matter how much you memorize, if all you are doing is memorizing more things, that is still step one.

Step two is going beyond memorizing. Why? Why am I in this position, when doing this technique? Why am I transitioning to the next stance and the next position? What is happening? As I make these movements, in these stances, what is happening in my body? What are the real world applications of these movements? Why are these moves grouped together? Why are they in this order?

Most arts have some form of step forward, lunge punch. Your right foot starts out behind, with you right hand in chamber. You step forward with your right foot and throw a straight right punch, leaving you in a forward stance, right foot and right fist forward. Step one is memorizing all the details, all the angles, all the positions.... Step two: why are you stepping forward when you punch? What is accomplished by that step? What can it help you to learn and practice? What can you take from that forward step, and apply elsewhere.... even to things that are not a punch?

The step forward in the lunge punch, teaches you to make an explosive forward step, it covers a lot of ground, it teaches to to end your forward motion on balance without over extending, it teaches you to use your feet to maximize reach without sacrificing your posture, it teaches you body unification, it shows you how to use your legs driving into the ground to add power to your strike, it shows how transferring your weight generates power and how to connect the leg power, the upper body power and the power generated by transferring your weight... (and a lot more) How can you use those things in other areas? Why does the lunge punch come after the down block in the kata? Why does it come before the next technique?

Then, look at why those moves are in that order together. If you think of a kata / form as a paragraph... what is the point of that paragraph? What is it saying and what can you learn from it? Why do students study this paragraph first before this other paragraph? What does the first kata you learn have to do with the next kata?

None of these questions I am asking, are answered by memorizing the angle of the bend in my elbow. These are the things you can focus on, once you no longer have to focus on what are all the angles of all of my joints, what is the next stance, what is the next technique...

The only reason for memorization, is to free your mind up to focus on what is really important.

 

[dvcochran]

Although it can still be deeper while being memorization. For example:
1. Memorize the basic steps and moves
2. Memorize each chamber position
3. Memorize each stance and the details of the stance (i.e. how far apart your feet are in X and Z, where each foot points, etc).
4. Memorize the timing of each combination
5. Memorize the breathing pattern of the form

You can memorize more and more details. The way I put it is that at the white & yellow belt level, there might be 5 details for each technique (3 details for stance, 2 details for the execution of the technique). But at my level, there are over 30 details for each technique in a form. This includes every major joint in both the chamber and completed position of the technique, as well as the path of travel in between.

Getting all these details right takes a lot more than a few days.

Question:
When training any movement or pattern or, well anything, has the emphasis ever been on it becoming an involuntary action (like blinking & breathing)?
I feel this is the level of proficiency others have been talking about. There come a point where it is no longer 20-30 individual sub-movements and becomes one, fluid motion done when needed, as needed, without any real mental thought process.
Automatic.