MCMAP

[Steve]

During my first 7 years I worked in aircraft maintenance, specifically back-shop F-15 avionics systems with a stint doing computer support for my unit. For the last 8 years, I've worked in intelligence (operations intel which was recently renamed to all-source).

Intelligence... that's a word that only the USAF can use without irony.

I was in for 4 years as an ammo troop. Was in Germany for 2 years, San Antonio for 2 with several TDYs and a 6 month deployment to Saudi. Packed a lot of fun into one enlistment.

 

[kuniggety]

Intelligence... that's a word that only the USAF can use without irony.

I was in for 4 years as an ammo troop. Was in Germany for 2 years, San Antonio for 2 with several TDYs and a 6 month deployment to Saudi. Packed a lot of fun into one enlistment.

IYAAYAS...or something. I actually had a bunch of former ammo troops in my intel class. For some reason they all didn't want the job anymore.

 

[Steve]

IYAAYAS...or something. I actually had a bunch of former ammo troops in my intel class. For some reason they all didn't want the job anymore.

If you ain't ammo, you ain't... something?

It's not a job I'd want to do for 20 years, but it was a blast as an Airman. Drove a lot of heavy machinery, including all kinds of forklifts, road graders, cranes and big trucks loaded with bombs. What's not to like?

 

[Nobody Important]

Trust me, it's not even close to the same. Marines lack social graces and are rather proud of that fact. We break things and kill people and it shows in our training. No offense to the Army, they try hard.

Agreed, I was Army, have a lot of Marine friends. Army Combatives and Marine Corp Martial Arts are two entirely different beasts. Combatives didn't exist when I was active. Some of my buddies, who are old timers and still in, had me come back to train different units in CQC, because they didn't care for Combatives, wanting something closer to MCMAP in practicality.

 

[That-a-Way]

Agreed, I was Army, have a lot of Marine friends. Army Combatives and Marine Corp Martial Arts are two entirely different beasts. Combatives didn't exist when I was active. Some of my buddies, who are old timers and still in, had me come back to train different units in CQC, because they didn't care for Combatives, wanting something closer to MCMAP in practicality.

Is Combative some kind of fighting style?

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[Nobody Important]

Is Combative some kind of fighting style?

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Combatives as defined by U.S. Army

The mission of the U.S. Army Combatives Course is to train Leaders and Soldiers in close quarters Combatives in order to instill the Warrior Ethos and prepare Soldiers to close with and defeat the enemy in hand to hand combat.

The Modern Army Combatives Program (MACP) started in 1995 with the 2nd Ranger Battalion and has spread at the grass roots around the Army. It has been incorporated into the new TC 3-25.150 and Basic Combatives is one of the Forty Warrior Core Tasks of the Warrior Ethos initiative

 

[FriedRice]

What do you think about this? What seems fishy is: how he could have learned this things? He is a MMA Black Belt (not sure which rank), but this only means he knows MMA. How similar is MMA to MCMAP?

MCMAP = MMA Lite. It's ok. MMA is rougher, and more effective if you're looking to fight empty hands.

They have belts in MCMAP. I've never seen the belt system in MMA, but it can happen and still be legit. There are legit gyms that gives out belt rankings in Muay Thai also, ie. Rafael Cordeiro. I'm not a purist snob, so I'm ok with this.

 

[hoshin1600]

MCMAP = MMA Lite. It's ok. MMA is rougher, and more effective if you're looking to fight empty hands.

They have belts in MCMAP. I've never seen the belt system in MMA, but it can happen and still be legit. There are legit gyms that gives out belt rankings in Muay Thai also, ie. Rafael Cordeiro. I'm not a purist snob, so I'm ok with this.

still stuck in your own little world i see. i wouldnt call MACP, .. MMA light. it may not be high level BJJ, but i would like to see you try rolling with knives and taking on a bayonet on the end of a rifle.
this clip is Marine's not the MACP but notice your MMA fighters failed big time.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

MCMAP is not mma or like mma. It encompasses more as it deals with weapons.

 

[drop bear]

still stuck in your own little world i see. i wouldnt call MACP, .. MMA light. it may not be high level BJJ, but i would like to see you try rolling with knives and taking on a bayonet on the end of a rifle.
this clip is Marine's not the MACP but notice your MMA fighters failed big time.

Does anyone pass?

 

[hoshin1600]

Does anyone pass?

i was just trying to point out to Fried rice that military combat is not a "lessor" version of MMA. its different, with different goals and objectives. in part three of that mini series the combat instructor says in MMA there are three outcomes, win, lose or draw, but in the military that means i die, you die , or we both die. losing is not an option.

 

[FriedRice]

still stuck in your own little world i see. i wouldnt call MACP, .. MMA light. it may not be high level BJJ, but i would like to see you try rolling with knives and taking on a bayonet on the end of a rifle.

Wait, you're scared of training with sharp knives? I also have bayonets on my AK-47's, what's the big deal? Just don't get stabbed with them. I live in the suburbs. If I waited for it to rain hard just to roll around in the mud with my AK, the neighbors will call the cops.

this clip is Marine's not the MACP but notice your MMA fighters failed big time.

So it's obvious that you're ignorant of what you're trying to argue about. FYI, MCMAP = Marine Corps Martial Arts Program

And I guess you don't train with many Marines and other soldiers, if any? Plenty of Marines, Rangers, etc. roll through our 10,000 sq/ft gym to train MMA. If all that they had was training from their military dept, then they're usually about an above average, White belt, nothing special. If we let them spar hard in Muay Thai, they'd get KO'ed by all the low level, amateur fighters with just 1 or 2 fight experience. One Marine almost got dropped by a girl fighter, and she's not even that good.

Now there are Marines who can fight, are those who make MMA and other real combat sports, their thing. They train a lot in the Corp + a lot more, outside. Like Brian Stan, Tim Kennedy, etc. who rose to the top levels of MMA. MCMAP is definitely MMA Lite, but nothing wrong with that...why would Marines need to train as hard as MMA fighters for in H2H when they have rifles?

You also failed to realize that The Marine Corp has always been a big $$$ sponsor of the UFC. UFC fighters are not going to go their and whoop them in the endurance exercises. Urijah Faber even said something about how it was pretty easy compared to MMA training (on a Joe Rogan podcast).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Marine's are not mma fighters nor are most mma fighters marines. Nor is Marine combat training the same as what mma training is. It does not surprise me that a marine trained in MCMAP would not be equal to trained mma fighters in the cage. Likewise mma trained fighters would not be used to marine training in MCMAP they are different with different goals. Saying MCMAP is mma lite is insulting to marines as well as simply not true. MMA fighters do not train with weapons, marines do. As a matter of fact they are rifle marksmen. Their goals are extremely different as well. Marines goals as any marine will tell you is to kill the enemy. That is what their training is for. That isn't the same goal for an mma fighter in the cage. Two very different programs with different goals!

 

[drop bear]

i was just trying to point out to Fried rice that military combat is not a "lessor" version of MMA. its different, with different goals and objectives. in part three of that mini series the combat instructor says in MMA there are three outcomes, win, lose or draw, but in the military that means i die, you die , or we both die. losing is not an option.

Tell that to a Vietnam vet.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I will give an example in regards to the Army Combatives program. Regularly I would have Army personnel to roll through my Training Hall back in Michigan. Invariably they would lose in grappling matches with seasoned IRT practitioner's who had been training for awhile. However, I have no doubt that they were better with their firearms than most of my students. Not all but most. I also have no doubt that when overseas they served very effectively!

 

[drop bear]

I will give an example in regards to the Army Combatives program. Regularly I would have Army personnel to roll through my Training Hall back in Michigan. Invariably they would lose in grappling matches with seasoned IRT practitioner's who had been training for awhile. However, I have no doubt that they were better with their firearms than most of my students. Not all but most. I also have no doubt that when overseas they served very effectively!

Yeah but how much time do you have to make a soldier into a hand to hand combat guy.

The guy who does part of the close quater combat training for Australia turns out decent fighters in his civilian systems as well. But you just can't get those results with soldiers in the time frame.

 

[jks9199]

Military combatives, whatever the version, have two basic purposes; 1) help to instill a fighting spirit, and 2) give the military personnel tools when they cannot use their firearms or other weapons. They aren't designed to make an MMA competition fighter, so it's no surprise that the average soldier* isn't on par with the average MMA participant -- including serious hobbyists -- in the MMA arena. Just like I wouldn't expect the average MMA participant to handle Close Quarters Battle. Unarmed skills aren't the primary focus of most soldiers, because they generally don't expect to go hands on with the enemy.

The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program does use "belts"; it's a ranking system that indicates the amount of time and what training Marines have gone through within the program. And, like any ranking system, really has no meaning outside its own context.

Police Control Tactics (or Defensive Tactics) have a different purpose, because a police officer will likely go hands on many times more than a soldier. After all, at some point, the cuffs have to go on -- and that takes going hands on. They also work with different rules of engagement (in the US, the Constitution, 4th and 8th Amendments especially). So, once again, the average cop isn't going to excel in the MMA arena... nor is the average MMA fighter going to be able to effect the arrest of a subject as well. They might well successfully submit them -- but what do you do with the guy once you've got him in a crucifix or some other submission hold?

Note also that we're talking averages. I know cops who are MMA fighters, soldiers who train BJJ, etc. Oh, and a fair few cops who train in a various different martial arts, too.

*I know, Marines and Airmen and Sailors aren't soldier, but it's easier than writing all of 'em out or writing military personnel everytime

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yeah but how much time do you have to make a soldier into a hand to hand combat guy.

The guy who does part of the close quater combat training for Australia turns out decent fighters in his civilian systems as well. But you just can't get those results with soldiers in the time frame.

Exactly! Different goals.

 

[drop bear]

Military combatives, whatever the version, have two basic purposes; 1) help to instill a fighting spirit, and 2) give the military personnel tools when they cannot use their firearms or other weapons. They aren't designed to make an MMA competition fighter, so it's no surprise that the average soldier* isn't on par with the average MMA participant -- including serious hobbyists -- in the MMA arena. Just like I wouldn't expect the average MMA participant to handle Close Quarters Battle. Unarmed skills aren't the primary focus of most soldiers, because they generally don't expect to go hands on with the enemy.

The Marine Corps Martial Arts Program does use "belts"; it's a ranking system that indicates the amount of time and what training Marines have gone through within the program. And, like any ranking system, really has no meaning outside its own context.

Police Control Tactics (or Defensive Tactics) have a different purpose, because a police officer will likely go hands on many times more than a soldier. After all, at some point, the cuffs have to go on -- and that takes going hands on. They also work with different rules of engagement (in the US, the Constitution, 4th and 8th Amendments especially). So, once again, the average cop isn't going to excel in the MMA arena... nor is the average MMA fighter going to be able to effect the arrest of a subject as well. They might well successfully submit them -- but what do you do with the guy once you've got him in a crucifix or some other submission hold?

Note also that we're talking averages. I know cops who are MMA fighters, soldiers who train BJJ, etc. Oh, and a fair few cops who train in a various different martial arts, too.

*I know, Marines and Airmen and Sailors aren't soldier, but it's easier than writing all of 'em out or writing military personnel everytime

I dont think specific training has anywhere near that sort of effect. If your system is solid then it shouldn't take that much to rengineer it to suit.

Wrestling for example can isolate an arm pretty effectively. An isolated arm gives you a hand cuff or an arm lock or a submission.

Which is my issue with police style defensive stuff is their set up is generally pretty bad.

 

[drop bear]

Exactly! Different goals.

No. different constraints. If i only had 1 day a week to train a MMA fighter then he would get a similar treatment to Mc Map.