Mc dojo's and how to identify them. need help

[Gerry Seymour]

I have a theory that the real testing takes place in class, and the "test" is mostly just for show. Not to say a person couldn't completely flub the test and fail, but in general, when the head instructor tells you that you are ready to test, the vast majority of the time, he has already decided based on your work in class that you have passed.

I saw evidence of this just the other day. I arrived early for class, and the head instructor was working with two younger high purple belts, both of whom were not performing their forms to the instructor's satisfaction. I heard the head instructor tell both purple belts to work on their forms over the weekend and come to class next Wednesday, but that unless they improved a lot, he would not allow either of them to test for brown belt next Friday.

There is some of that, depending upon the school. For me (as an instructor) the point of testing is to - in a relatively short window of time - get a quick overview of everything I think they need to be ready for the next level. My tests (at least at lower levels) are pretty casual, and they sometimes aren't even aware I'm testing them. I'd do less of that as the ranks increase. Some schools/instructors don't even really test much; they just evaluate along the way. Some have formal tests that are just a point to test people under stress, and it would take a lot to fail. Some have tests that are Very Big Deals (like @drop bear was talking about recently) that are meant to push students harder and further than regular training. Most instructors with formal tests won't test someone they think isn't ready, whether the test is evaluation, confirmation, or a Very Big Deal.

 

[Druid11]

Hello I was wondering if someone could aid me to identify a mcdojo, as im 16 and none of my family tree has experience with martial arts and don't want to waste all my mustered up will and time on a scam, I'm in a very populated area so majority of gyms are in buildings-malls(just like mine is in a mall), the time of training is one hour(about an hour sometimes it extends to 30-40min after the hour) 3 times a week, and as a two week white belt, im kinda lost when it comes to what is a good gym or bad gym or the topic about mcdojos and would greatly appreciate any kind of help

I think as others have mentioned how you define a McDojo is kind of important. If you see a McDojo simply as a martial arts school primarily concerned with making money than, I don't necessarily think that a McDojo is always a bad thing. A school's (and it's owner's) main motivation can be to make money and still teach legitimate martial arts of good quality. If you define McDojo as a scam or a school that's poor quality then that's another story.

I realize the OP is kind of old, but they mentioned in a subsequent post that it was mentioned that they were told they could get a back belt in two years by another student. I supposed whether this is a red flag of some sort depends on the context of the comment. If it was, "Hey man, you keep coming and working hard, you could get your black belt in about two years," then I don't really see that as a problem. As others have mentioned a black belt in TKD in 2-3 years isn't unusual and the other student may have just been trying to be nice and motivational. It the comment was more, "Hey man you can be a black belt in two years if you sign this contract and/or buy X,Y or Z," then I see that as an issue.

There are plenty of schools in my area that I would consider McDojos. They have multiple locations and they have a slightly corporate or franchise feel to them. They do legitimately teach martial arts, however. It's not my cup of tea to train there, but I don't begrudge people who do enjoy their training. I imagine some would see my Dojo as McDojo as it is my head instructors primary source of income. He is concerned with both with retaining and bringing in new students on one hand because he loves to teach, but on the other hand, because it helps his bottom line. However, his business practices are fair (at least IMO) and transparent and he's willing to work with people who are having financial problems, especially if they've been a student for any length of time.

On the other end of the spectrum, there is an instructor in the area that has opened and closed a couple schools already (I know of him because he used to rent the same space our current Dojo is in). He claims to teach Kung Fu, but from what I've seen of video of his classes (that he's posted himself) it's a weird mishmash of several different arts, mostly TKD. He posts fairly outrageous claims about how after only a couple classes parents have told him how much better behaved their children are and how he took his white belts to a tournament and beat everyone. And despite only opening this particular iteration of his school a couple months ago, he has what seems to be several highly ranked children as students (I'm not sure how his ranking system works, but the first two belts appear to be white and then yellow, he's posted picture with several students wearing purple belts). By comparison, an instructor at my school opened her own Dojo in a neighboring town and after almost a year her highest ranked student is a Go-Kyu (yellow belt). Now, this school I would call both a McDojo as his primary motivation appears to be making money, and I also think pretty much everything about his school and what he teaches is fishy.

So, I don't think that a school saying, "If you work hard and train regularly, you can possibly reach black belt in X amount of time," is in and of itself a bad thing. I think that if a place is guaranteeing you a black belt in a certain time span, or they're making far out claims about what they teach or how effective what they teach is, then I would run. If the instructor makes seem like he is a holder of some super special secret martial arts knowledge, then run. If the school claims that only they and no one else teaches truly effective martial arts or that they have the secret to learning martial arts faster, then I would run. If you just think it's a school that's trying to make money off of you, but you enjoy it and what they teach seems legit without outrageous claims, then you have to evaluate how you feel about that. I personally don't see a problem with a school trying to make money and wouldn't really have a problem attending class there and long as their business practices where fair and upfront.

 

[dvcochran]

There is some of that, depending upon the school. For me (as an instructor) the point of testing is to - in a relatively short window of time - get a quick overview of everything I think they need to be ready for the next level. My tests (at least at lower levels) are pretty casual, and they sometimes aren't even aware I'm testing them. I'd do less of that as the ranks increase. Some schools/instructors don't even really test much; they just evaluate along the way. Some have formal tests that are just a point to test people under stress, and it would take a lot to fail. Some have tests that are Very Big Deals (like @drop bear was talking about recently) that are meant to push students harder and further than regular training. Most instructors with formal tests won't test someone they think isn't ready, whether the test is evaluation, confirmation, or a Very Big Deal.

Especially in a school with kids there are exponentially more people testing for, I would say, the first three belts/colors. It is also usually true that these people are required to know/do less for a test. Naturally because of their time and experience. I made it a point to hand out testing forms to each testing student but as we got bigger I did not always do it for the lower belts simply because of volume.
My point is, for blue and red belts, (1 blue, 3 reds before black) it was a big deal to get your testing form. I made sure of it. It would be about a month before testing so the person knew they better get ready. The environment made the pass/fail question answer itself most of the time. That was always one of the questions I asked higher belts after testing. Very seldom were they honest with their answer. We never made it some kind of mystic, unclear experience. I wanted to see the performance of the required content and the maturity to know whether you performed to the required level. Physical, mental, and spiritual progression.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think as others have mentioned how you define a McDojo is kind of important. If you see a McDojo simply as a martial arts school primarily concerned with making money than, I don't necessarily think that a McDojo is always a bad thing. A school's (and it's owner's) main motivation can be to make money and still teach legitimate martial arts of good quality. If you define McDojo as a scam or a school that's poor quality then that's another story.

I realize the OP is kind of old, but they mentioned in a subsequent post that it was mentioned that they were told they could get a back belt in two years by another student. I supposed whether this is a red flag of some sort depends on the context of the comment. If it was, "Hey man, you keep coming and working hard, you could get your black belt in about two years," then I don't really see that as a problem. As others have mentioned a black belt in TKD in 2-3 years isn't unusual and the other student may have just been trying to be nice and motivational. It the comment was more, "Hey man you can be a black belt in two years if you sign this contract and/or buy X,Y or Z," then I see that as an issue.

There are plenty of schools in my area that I would consider McDojos. They have multiple locations and they have a slightly corporate or franchise feel to them. They do legitimately teach martial arts, however. It's not my cup of tea to train there, but I don't begrudge people who do enjoy their training. I imagine some would see my Dojo as McDojo as it is my head instructors primary source of income. He is concerned with both with retaining and bringing in new students on one hand because he loves to teach, but on the other hand, because it helps his bottom line. However, his business practices are fair (at least IMO) and transparent and he's willing to work with people who are having financial problems, especially if they've been a student for any length of time.

On the other end of the spectrum, there is an instructor in the area that has opened and closed a couple schools already (I know of him because he used to rent the same space our current Dojo is in). He claims to teach Kung Fu, but from what I've seen of video of his classes (that he's posted himself) it's a weird mishmash of several different arts, mostly TKD. He posts fairly outrageous claims about how after only a couple classes parents have told him how much better behaved their children are and how he took his white belts to a tournament and beat everyone. And despite only opening this particular iteration of his school a couple months ago, he has what seems to be several highly ranked children as students (I'm not sure how his ranking system works, but the first two belts appear to be white and then yellow, he's posted picture with several students wearing purple belts). By comparison, an instructor at my school opened her own Dojo in a neighboring town and after almost a year her highest ranked student is a Go-Kyu (yellow belt). Now, this school I would call both a McDojo as his primary motivation appears to be making money, and I also think pretty much everything about his school and what he teaches is fishy.

So, I don't think that a school saying, "If you work hard and train regularly, you can possibly reach black belt in X amount of time," is in and of itself a bad thing. I think that if a place is guaranteeing you a black belt in a certain time span, or they're making far out claims about what they teach or how effective what they teach is, then I would run. If the instructor makes seem like he is a holder of some super special secret martial arts knowledge, then run. If the school claims that only they and no one else teaches truly effective martial arts or that they have the secret to learning martial arts faster, then I would run. If you just think it's a school that's trying to make money off of you, but you enjoy it and what they teach seems legit without outrageous claims, then you have to evaluate how you feel about that. I personally don't see a problem with a school trying to make money and wouldn't really have a problem attending class there and long as their business practices where fair and upfront.

Given the term that was chosen, I suspect McDojo originally referred to chain schools, or those that felt like such. As you correctly surmise (and even do in your own post) most of us use it as a general pejorative that doesn't say anything specific.

A chain school can be good or bad, by almost any measure we care to use (as, of course, can an independent school). The same is true of schools with full-time instructors, versus hobbyists. Interestingly, I doubt anyone throws epithets at full-time boxing coaches simply because they're full-time at it. The idea that a MA instructor shouldn't be earning his living off his teaching is odd to me, and must be something derived from one or more Asian cultures.

 

[JR 137]

Given the term that was chosen, I suspect McDojo originally referred to chain schools, or those that felt like such. As you correctly surmise (and even do in your own post) most of us use it as a general pejorative that doesn't say anything specific.

A chain school can be good or bad, by almost any measure we care to use (as, of course, can an independent school). The same is true of schools with full-time instructors, versus hobbyists. Interestingly, I doubt anyone throws epithets at full-time boxing coaches simply because they're full-time at it. The idea that a MA instructor shouldn't be earning his living off his teaching is odd to me, and must be something derived from one or more Asian cultures.

To me, McDojo means basically what McDonald’s means - the quickest, easiest MA that’s devoid of any substance and appeals to the masses due to its marketing and inoffensiveness. It’s a poor excuse for MA. Think about McDonald’s - the food is quick, easy, and bland compared to a genuine restaurant. Genuinely, a poor excuse for food.

What McDojos and McDonald’s don’t typically have in common is price. McDonald’s is cheap compared to actual restaurant food. McDojos? The norm is overpriced, even for genuinely good MA instruction.