Mc dojo's and how to identify them. need help

[WaterGal]

I also see students, particularly kids, with stripes and buttons on their belt between grades. And "pre-black belt" steps after attaining 1st Gup. If they have to pay for each of these then yes, I think that is a McDojo. I do agree with a Po Dan signification for 1st Dan students under 16 years of age.

The stripes look shabby, but they can be great way to help kids track their own progress (and for us to see where they're at). We started using them a year or two ago, and it makes things so much easier.

What we do is we have a color stripe for each major element of the curriculum. They earn each stripe by demonstrating good competence of that specific material in class (the stripe is awarded at the end of the class, and doesn't cost anything). Once they have all the stripes, they're eligible to test at the next testing date.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a "pre-test" for black belt, either, but that's up to the school and what they want to do.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hello I was wondering if someone could aid me to identify a mcdojo, as im 16 and none of my family tree has experience with martial arts and don't want to waste all my mustered up will and time on a scam, I'm in a very populated area so majority of gyms are in buildings-malls(just like mine is in a mall), the time of training is one hour(about an hour sometimes it extends to 30-40min after the hour) 3 times a week, and as a two week white belt, im kinda lost when it comes to what is a good gym or bad gym or the topic about mcdojos and would greatly appreciate any kind of help

My standard answer to this type of posts is this...

If you walk into a dojo and THIS is the teacher....

You're in a McDojos

 

[pdg]

What we do is we have a color stripe for each major element of the curriculum. They earn each stripe by demonstrating good competence of that specific material in class (the stripe is awarded at the end of the class, and doesn't cost anything). Once they have all the stripes, they're eligible to test at the next testing date.

That's not an unreasonable idea, might also introduce a little extra competition which is no bad thing for motivation (especially for kids).

 

[JR 137]

The stripes look shabby, but they can be great way to help kids track their own progress (and for us to see where they're at). We started using them a year or two ago, and it makes things so much easier.

What we do is we have a color stripe for each major element of the curriculum. They earn each stripe by demonstrating good competence of that specific material in class (the stripe is awarded at the end of the class, and doesn't cost anything). Once they have all the stripes, they're eligible to test at the next testing date.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a "pre-test" for black belt, either, but that's up to the school and what they want to do.

My former organization used stripes (strips of electrical tape) to track progress, in a sense.

We had 2 separate “stripe tests.” One was for kata, the other for a few standardized things. We’d have a predetermined night for the stripe test. We’d do kata as a class like we usually did, then we’d individually go in front of the class and perform our kata(s) for the current rank. We’d then critique each other. If you met the teacher’s standards, you got a strip of electrical tape on your belt. Same for the second stripe, only it was different material.

The test didn’t cost anything, and it wasn’t a big production in any way. There were people who didn’t get their stripe(s). They were allowed to try again later on. Once you had both stripes, you were eligible to test at the next promotional test. If you didn’t have both stripes, you didn’t test.

It was an organized way of keeping track of who’s meeting the standards and is eligible. If you had both stripes, you knew you were testing next time; if you didn’t, you weren’t. Simple as that. It was also a good quality control measure, as everyone was put front and center and had to demonstrate what they knew; no one could hide or slip through the cracks. Maybe someone could buy their own colored electrical tape and put it on themselves, but I don’t think anyone did. I’m sure that wouldn’t go over well at all if it was found out.

Edit: stripe tests were for colored belts only.

 

[dvcochran]

The stripes look shabby, but they can be great way to help kids track their own progress (and for us to see where they're at). We started using them a year or two ago, and it makes things so much easier.

What we do is we have a color stripe for each major element of the curriculum. They earn each stripe by demonstrating good competence of that specific material in class (the stripe is awarded at the end of the class, and doesn't cost anything). Once they have all the stripes, they're eligible to test at the next testing date.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a "pre-test" for black belt, either, but that's up to the school and what they want to do.

I like your approach on stripes. Are there a set number to qualify for each testing? Are they used only with kids? I always felt class was pre testing and would press potential BB testers harder during classes as a testing date became closer. It is good for other students to see the expectation in an extended manner. A "formal" pre test is a lot like cramming for an exam to me. Binge, purge, binge purge, and they never really learn the subject matter.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Speaking of McDojos

 

[WaterGal]

I like your approach on stripes. Are there a set number to qualify for each testing? Are they used only with kids? I always felt class was pre testing and would press potential BB testers harder during classes as a testing date became closer. It is good for other students to see the expectation in an extended manner. A "formal" pre test is a lot like cramming for an exam to me. Binge, purge, binge purge, and they never really learn the subject matter.

Yeah, there's a set number, one for each of the major things they're learning at that belt (i.e., one for their form, one for sparring, etc). We use them for all the TKD students, but our TKD program is mostly kids. With the stripes, they're always pre-testing, in a sense.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Yeah, there's a set number, one for each of the major things they're learning at that belt (i.e., one for their form, one for sparring, etc). We use them for all the TKD students, but our TKD program is mostly kids. With the stripes, they're always pre-testing, in a sense.

This is a very common and useful system, especially in schools with large numbers of students or several instructors teaching on different days. It’s easy to survey the class quickly and know who knows what and who needs what.


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[Gerry Seymour]

I like your approach on stripes. Are there a set number to qualify for each testing? Are they used only with kids? I always felt class was pre testing and would press potential BB testers harder during classes as a testing date became closer. It is good for other students to see the expectation in an extended manner. A "formal" pre test is a lot like cramming for an exam to me. Binge, purge, binge purge, and they never really learn the subject matter.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of folks prepping specifically for a test. More to the point, I'm not a fan of folks needing to prep specifically for a test. It's my opinion that the test should align with what's taught/practiced in class. If they're doing their work properly in class (and the right amount and type outside class), they should just arrive at the test "ready". So I like parts of the test (or even the entire test) to just happen - sometimes without them being aware of it (which is like this pre-testing during class). I'm okay with this causing a push prior to promotion, as they finally get a grip on what they need to improve on and get to work on those areas. That's part of the value of specific testing requirements.

 

[WaterGal]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of folks prepping specifically for a test. More to the point, I'm not a fan of folks needing to prep specifically for a test. It's my opinion that the test should align with what's taught/practiced in class. If they're doing their work properly in class (and the right amount and type outside class), they should just arrive at the test "ready". So I like parts of the test (or even the entire test) to just happen - sometimes without them being aware of it (which is like this pre-testing during class). I'm okay with this causing a push prior to promotion, as they finally get a grip on what they need to improve on and get to work on those areas. That's part of the value of specific testing requirements.

I agree when it comes to regular tests, but a black belt test is often cumulative and covers a wide range of material from many different levels. In that case, I think, you're probably going to need some specific prepping.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree when it comes to regular tests, but a black belt test is often cumulative and covers a wide range of material from many different levels. In that case, I think, you're probably going to need some specific prepping.

I really didn't except for the vocabulary (in the NGAA, there's a bunch of tested vocabulary that's never otherwise used). All the other tests I went through were also cumulative (to a slightly lesser degree), and the brown belt test is pretty much a lite version of the BB test. And all that material is covered on a regular basis - nothing is left behind (they don't have rank-forms or anything like that), which might be part of the difference.

But that's also sort of my point. If the training hasn't been covering some stuff, then why bother testing it at that point? If there's a point in testing it, then training should cover it. Mind you, that statement allows that training might adjust as someone progresses, so it matches their needs for the test. I just feel like, as an instructor, my tests should be to see if they're making progress in their training. If I'm not training it, I'm unlikely to bother testing for it. The exception would be if a given rank is an instructor certification. At that point, it's reasonable that the person should have to go back and shore up material that's not part of their regular training, because they're now testing to see if they are ready to teach others.

 

[JR 137]

I really didn't except for the vocabulary (in the NGAA, there's a bunch of tested vocabulary that's never otherwise used). All the other tests I went through were also cumulative (to a slightly lesser degree), and the brown belt test is pretty much a lite version of the BB test. And all that material is covered on a regular basis - nothing is left behind (they don't have rank-forms or anything like that), which might be part of the difference.

But that's also sort of my point. If the training hasn't been covering some stuff, then why bother testing it at that point? If there's a point in testing it, then training should cover it. Mind you, that statement allows that training might adjust as someone progresses, so it matches their needs for the test. I just feel like, as an instructor, my tests should be to see if they're making progress in their training. If I'm not training it, I'm unlikely to bother testing for it. The exception would be if a given rank is an instructor certification. At that point, it's reasonable that the person should have to go back and shore up material that's not part of their regular training, because they're now testing to see if they are ready to teach others.

You have to take the size of the dojo into consideration...

Larger dojos can have classes focused on specific aspects of the art. Perhaps Monday and Tuesday classes are kata, Wednesday and Thursday are sparring, Friday is weapons, and Saturday is general class. If your schedule only allows Monday and Wednesday class, you’re probably going to be missing out on some stuff. You might occasionally do it during the classes you normally attend and/or shift your schedule to get some other class types in every once in a while, but there’s easily room for gaps in your training.

Then there’s black belts who almost solely go to black belt classes. They may go through lower colored belt stuff occasionally, but how often? Testing for say, 4th dan which I’ve heard is a test that everything in the syllabus is expected to be done at a very high level. 4th dan in our organization carries the title sensei, and as such a 4th dan is expected to have the technical knowledge to be able teach and promote. Not everyone can nor should teach, but a 4th dan should easily be able to run a few classes when needed for a CI, and should be able to work with anyone on a one on one basis.

So a 4th dan has a ton of curriculum stuff they need to know inside-out. People usually get into a routine in their own training and for whatever reasons neglect parts of the curriculum. It’s very rare for a CI who has students at a lot of different ranks, but not that rare for someone who doesn’t teach. I could see the student who doesn’t teach having to focus a good amount of attention on the stuff he/she hasn’t been doing for a while when the time comes to test for 4th dan. Especially standardized stuff; we have beginner and intermediate “self defenses” (which are similar to 1 steps) and yakusoku kumite (which are pre-arranged sparring patterns). I could easily see a 3rd dan who hasn’t done them regularly in quite some time butchering them, especially the lowest ones. That wouldn’t be because they’re difficult, it would be because they’ve forgotten which ones are which, which foot moves where, which hand does which block, etc. To the best of my knowledge those aren’t typically covered in black belt class. If they haven’t been to too many general classes, they’re going to be rusty.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of folks prepping specifically for a test. More to the point, I'm not a fan of folks needing to prep specifically for a test. It's my opinion that the test should align with what's taught/practiced in class. If they're doing their work properly in class (and the right amount and type outside class), they should just arrive at the test "ready". So I like parts of the test (or even the entire test) to just happen - sometimes without them being aware of it (which is like this pre-testing during class). I'm okay with this causing a push prior to promotion, as they finally get a grip on what they need to improve on and get to work on those areas. That's part of the value of specific testing requirements.

I think the idea of doing a fight camp style prep for a belt test would seriously bump up peoples skill.

I am basically against the idea that you would continually grade by just turning up and maintaining the same pace. When you could be using that grading as a goal setting exercise.

I think there are two ways we are looking at this. A person is deficient in class but uses the pre test system to make grade.

A person is proficient but is pushed to a higher level of work rate due to the pre test.

Basically you take all the things that are beneficial about competition and apply them to schools that don't do competition.

 

[drop bear]

I really didn't except for the vocabulary (in the NGAA, there's a bunch of tested vocabulary that's never otherwise used). All the other tests I went through were also cumulative (to a slightly lesser degree), and the brown belt test is pretty much a lite version of the BB test. And all that material is covered on a regular basis - nothing is left behind (they don't have rank-forms or anything like that), which might be part of the difference.

But that's also sort of my point. If the training hasn't been covering some stuff, then why bother testing it at that point? If there's a point in testing it, then training should cover it. Mind you, that statement allows that training might adjust as someone progresses, so it matches their needs for the test. I just feel like, as an instructor, my tests should be to see if they're making progress in their training. If I'm not training it, I'm unlikely to bother testing for it. The exception would be if a given rank is an instructor certification. At that point, it's reasonable that the person should have to go back and shore up material that's not part of their regular training, because they're now testing to see if they are ready to teach others.

I still think grading ticks a lot of the same boxes as competition.

If you decided to do a BJJ competition as a training tool. You would spend the weeks leading up locking down your skills in that area.

Once that is done. You carry those skills on to your regular training.

Go back to the Aikido but your depth is a bit better.

Which is sort of the whole point of cross training.

Now same with a test. So if your focus is to refine the elements of your game to create more depth in your martial arts then a test that is not achievable by just showing up would help achieve those advancements

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have to take the size of the dojo into consideration...

Larger dojos can have classes focused on specific aspects of the art. Perhaps Monday and Tuesday classes are kata, Wednesday and Thursday are sparring, Friday is weapons, and Saturday is general class. If your schedule only allows Monday and Wednesday class, you’re probably going to be missing out on some stuff. You might occasionally do it during the classes you normally attend and/or shift your schedule to get some other class types in every once in a while, but there’s easily room for gaps in your training.

Then there’s black belts who almost solely go to black belt classes. They may go through lower colored belt stuff occasionally, but how often? Testing for say, 4th dan which I’ve heard is a test that everything in the syllabus is expected to be done at a very high level. 4th dan in our organization carries the title sensei, and as such a 4th dan is expected to have the technical knowledge to be able teach and promote. Not everyone can nor should teach, but a 4th dan should easily be able to run a few classes when needed for a CI, and should be able to work with anyone on a one on one basis.

So a 4th dan has a ton of curriculum stuff they need to know inside-out. People usually get into a routine in their own training and for whatever reasons neglect parts of the curriculum. It’s very rare for a CI who has students at a lot of different ranks, but not that rare for someone who doesn’t teach. I could see the student who doesn’t teach having to focus a good amount of attention on the stuff he/she hasn’t been doing for a while when the time comes to test for 4th dan. Especially standardized stuff; we have beginner and intermediate “self defenses” (which are similar to 1 steps) and yakusoku kumite (which are pre-arranged sparring patterns). I could easily see a 3rd dan who hasn’t done them regularly in quite some time butchering them, especially the lowest ones. That wouldn’t be because they’re difficult, it would be because they’ve forgotten which ones are which, which foot moves where, which hand does which block, etc. To the best of my knowledge those aren’t typically covered in black belt class. If they haven’t been to too many general classes, they’re going to be rusty.

That makes some sense. I think some of that comes down to a different approach to curriculum, too. I doubt I would ever teach a kata-focused repeating class, or any other specialized class except maybe a sparring class. If I did, attendance would be limited to folks attending regular classes, or those who've reach BB (remember, I have no ranks above that). I might work kata more one month, but then it's on to the next thing.

As for the advanced classes, the schools that I know in NGA that have BB classes do actually work the entire curriculum in those classes. Again, that difference is more due to the nature of the curriculum, though. NGA's core curriculum is 50 grappling techniques. Those are never left behind at any rank, so it's not at all uncommon to see a pair of black belts working on the first set (what's tested for first colored belt).

So, yeah, I can see that a school having specialized classes might end up with some students whose schedule leaves them mostly attending those classes. And I can see how a different style of curriculum might leave behind (that's not a negative comment, in case that's not clear) some of the earlier material that only shows up again mainly for testing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the idea of doing a fight camp style prep for a belt test would seriously bump up peoples skill.

I am basically against the idea that you would continually grade by just turning up and maintaining the same pace. When you could be using that grading as a goal setting exercise.

I think there are two ways we are looking at this. A person is deficient in class but uses the pre test system to make grade.

A person is proficient but is pushed to a higher level of work rate due to the pre test.

Basically you take all the things that are beneficial about competition and apply them to schools that don't do competition.

I can see that, and that push (and overcoming the goal) would have real value.

My view of testing is just that it's a way of checking to see if anything was missed, to make sure the student is ready for the next level of training. I can see value in using tests to push someone harder - then the test becomes a part of the training, rather than an evaluation of the training.

Here's part of where I came to my (current) view. In the school where I came through the ranks, people pushed hard to prep for their BB test (and to a lesser extent for their brown belt, too). I pushed hard for brown, and it was a good experience, but the test felt far too hard that way. So, I changed my approach. Instead, I just upped my overall training pace. By the time I got near my BB test, there wasn't really any reason to make an extra push - I'd already gotten myself to the level I needed. My training partners kept asking me when we were going to do practice tests (something that was pretty common - a chance to work on the stamina needed) and what extra exercise I was doing. I told them I wasn't planning to do any practice tests, and that I was just keeping the same exercise I'd been doing. In the end, my BB test was much easier than the brown, because I was better prepared.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I still think grading ticks a lot of the same boxes as competition.

If you decided to do a BJJ competition as a training tool. You would spend the weeks leading up locking down your skills in that area.

Once that is done. You carry those skills on to your regular training.

Go back to the Aikido but your depth is a bit better.

Which is sort of the whole point of cross training.

Now same with a test. So if your focus is to refine the elements of your game to create more depth in your martial arts then a test that is not achievable by just showing up would help achieve those advancements

I see your point. I guess I just started looking at it the other way around: hold off on the test until you're ready for it, rather than pushing specifically to get to it. The only equivalent I can think of for competition would be staying closer to fighting shape all the time (not really realistic at higher levels, of course).

 

[dvcochran]

That makes some sense. I think some of that comes down to a different approach to curriculum, too. I doubt I would ever teach a kata-focused repeating class, or any other specialized class except maybe a sparring class. If I did, attendance would be limited to folks attending regular classes, or those who've reach BB (remember, I have no ranks above that). I might work kata more one month, but then it's on to the next thing.

As for the advanced classes, the schools that I know in NGA that have BB classes do actually work the entire curriculum in those classes. Again, that difference is more due to the nature of the curriculum, though. NGA's core curriculum is 50 grappling techniques. Those are never left behind at any rank, so it's not at all uncommon to see a pair of black belts working on the first set (what's tested for first colored belt).

So, yeah, I can see that a school having specialized classes might end up with some students whose schedule leaves them mostly attending those classes. And I can see how a different style of curriculum might leave behind (that's not a negative comment, in case that's not clear) some of the earlier material that only shows up again mainly for testing.

Something my GM has always done that appears to be unusual is not limit or exempt anyone form any class. Say a white belt shows up for senior belt class. They can benefit from stretching and says kicks/be a kicking partner. But if the class is forms focus for instance, they will be sitting for a good portion of the class. They will benefit from "learning patience" and observing the senior belts action and decorum.
We have a set pattern of children's classes and adult classes but have never tried to modularize age ranges as much as I have heard other schools on the forum do. The practice of truly open classes is made easier by the set schedule and class intent. It an adult shows up for children's class because that is all their schedule will permit that is fine. But they know up front it will not be the same workout they would get had they went to an adult class.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Something my GM has always done that appears to be unusual is not limit or exempt anyone form any class. Say a white belt shows up for senior belt class. They can benefit from stretching and says kicks/be a kicking partner. But if the class is forms focus for instance, they will be sitting for a good portion of the class. They will benefit from "learning patience" and observing the senior belts action and decorum.
We have a set pattern of children's classes and adult classes but have never tried to modularize age ranges as much as I have heard other schools on the forum do. The practice of truly open classes is made easier by the set schedule and class intent. It an adult shows up for children's class because that is all their schedule will permit that is fine. But they know up front it will not be the same workout they would get had they went to an adult class.

It may be nitpicking, but they are excluded from the parts of class they can't do (when you mentioned them sitting during advanced forms). The same would happen if a lower belt had shown up for an "advanced" class. That class is expected to have harder throws, and often focuses on the techniques later in the syllabus (because there's less chance to work those in regular classes), so that lower rank would only be able to participate in small ways. If there was an injured advanced rank attending, they'd also have some limitations (and those two might get paired up).

 

[mrt2]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of folks prepping specifically for a test. More to the point, I'm not a fan of folks needing to prep specifically for a test. It's my opinion that the test should align with what's taught/practiced in class. If they're doing their work properly in class (and the right amount and type outside class), they should just arrive at the test "ready". So I like parts of the test (or even the entire test) to just happen - sometimes without them being aware of it (which is like this pre-testing during class). I'm okay with this causing a push prior to promotion, as they finally get a grip on what they need to improve on and get to work on those areas. That's part of the value of specific testing requirements.

I have a theory that the real testing takes place in class, and the "test" is mostly just for show. Not to say a person couldn't completely flub the test and fail, but in general, when the head instructor tells you that you are ready to test, the vast majority of the time, he has already decided based on your work in class that you have passed.

I saw evidence of this just the other day. I arrived early for class, and the head instructor was working with two younger high purple belts, both of whom were not performing their forms to the instructor's satisfaction. I heard the head instructor tell both purple belts to work on their forms over the weekend and come to class next Wednesday, but that unless they improved a lot, he would not allow either of them to test for brown belt next Friday.