Headhunter
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Who cares if it is or isn't. If your enjoying it then really who cares? You may enjoy training at a mcdojo more than a legit school
Mc dojo's and how to identify them. need help
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That depends what your objective is. If you're training for competition, sparring (simulating that competition) is a necessity. If you're training for self-defense, I consider it a necessity, though I've seen some schools manage to produce some (inconsistently) good fighters without regular sparring. If you're training because you want something to master, enjoy the challenge, and keep your body moving, sparring is only necessary if you really want it.
I'll reiterate what others have said. "McDojo" is a fluid term. What one person thinks is reprehensible may actually serve the needs of another person. If you are getting what you want from your training, and are not deceived about your actual ability in some context, then the school is good...for your needs.
I do think there are approaches most folks would agree don't seem to favor students in any context. Guaranteed time to black belt (or any rank) obscures the fact that people learn at different rates, and some folks will put forth more effort than others (which may or may not lead to them learning faster). It shouldn't cost more to get the necessary training for a rank, unless it's additional training (so, if a "black belt prep class" is an additional class, it's reasonable that you should pay more for that additional class).
Someone already mentioned watching the higher ranks. I'll add that you should also look at the middle ranks (you'll have to ask when you're there what their ranking is). IMO, you should be able to see a real difference between beginners and middle ranks. Anyone with some martial arts experience should also be able to see a marked difference between the intermediates and advanced, though it's not always something an inexperienced person can perceive.
Consider taking someone with you who understands your objectives, knows a bit about martial arts, and has an open mind (doesn't always talk about how some arts are trash, especially when "some arts" means everything except what they do). I've actually visited schools with folks, and even in advance of them, to give my input for them when they were looking into a school in an area where I was going to be. I know other martial artists who have done the same.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
Every school is a mcdojo and none are. Nobody thinks they are a mcdojo. I’ve heard tons of people talk about their “mcdojo competitor,” but I’ll pretty much guarantee that the competitor doesn’t believe they’re a mcdojo. I push students to get ready for testing for a couple of reasons: it’s good motivation for the majority of students and it’s good for retention.
Students stick around when they see tangible progress (I got a new belt/I’m one step closer to...). The longer I have the opportunity to work with a student, the more positive impact I can have on them. It’s also, not coincidentally, good for my bottom line. I’m motivated by growth in my students and in my business. Everybody wins. If happy students and a happy instructor causes someone to label me a mcdojo, so be it. Opinions of people outside of my school are not important.
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Students stick around when they see tangible progress (I got a new belt/I’m one step closer to...). The longer I have the opportunity to work with a student, the more positive impact I can have on them. It’s also, not coincidentally, good for my bottom line. I’m motivated by growth in my students and in my business. Everybody wins. If happy students and a happy instructor causes someone to label me a mcdojo, so be it. Opinions of people outside of my school are not important.
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That right there is probably the critical difference.
You push them to get ready.
If you shoved them through production line time only based grading with no concern as to whether they're ready or able, and pass them irrespective just to bank the cash, it'd be different.
Unless you're trying to attract new students
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Well remember, if you saw it online then its got to be true. Seriously, go in with an open mind and see if it is right for you. That should not include a fee just to trial a couple of classes. If you are an athlete look for the markers you are familiar with if that is important for what you are looking for going forward. If you are looking for something totally new a MA class should be a great idea. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
You largely answered your own question. If it is not a challenge to YOU, it is unlikely you will want to stay anyway.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
That right there is probably the critical difference.
You push them to get ready.
If you shoved them through production line time only based grading with no concern as to whether they're ready or able, and pass them irrespective just to bank the cash, it'd be different.
Unless you're trying to attract new students
Once they’re inside my school their opinions become important.
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watching
Green Belt
the school might be against giving a black belt to a minor, which is a good sign in my opinion. Just think of a few critical things that you want from your training and ask the head instructor about these things next time you go in.
I kind of get what you're saying, but if everyone outside of your school thinks it's no good then eventually you'll have no students.
People naturally leave (move away, interests change, etc.) and if you can't get new people through the door...
Any business needs a reputation to grow and a good way to destroy a business is to put about that "the (potential) customer might be right or wrong, but I don't care either way".
mrt2
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That alone doesn't mean anything. What the high red belt told you might actually be true.
But in Tae Kwon Do, black belt is just the beginning, so don't worry that after 2 years, they will have nothing left to teach you, or that they are running a scam because they award black belts in two years. At my school, they award a provisional black belt, then 6 months to a year later, you take another black belt test for the 1st Dan. So to get to provisional black belt in 2 years, and black belt in 2 1/2 to 3 years puts things into perspective. My previous style had a rank of Cho Dan Bo, which they did not call black belt, because the holder of that rank didn't wear a black belt. But it was usually a year to black belt once you made Cho Dan Bo.
What I am trying to say is, the black belt means different things in different styles. At my former school, there were not many black belts. In fact, the majority of black belts were instructors. The only person who held a rank higher than third Dan was the head instructor who was a 6th Dan master. By contrast, at my current school there are a lot of provisional and 1st degree black belts, while there are a small number of second Dan (degree), but just a couple of third Dan, and one fourth Dan. And, all of the third and fourth Dan black belts are instructors.
At my former school, the black belt seemed to be the big jump from beginner to expert. I can't say that is true at my current school. At this juncture, if I can avoid injury, I can see myself making black belt in two years. It is 2nd and 3rd Dan that seems like the really hard jump. Now, maybe I just convinced you that my current school is a McDojo, since all these colored belt tests are not free. And to a certain extent, that is correct. Could a martial arts school have just 3 or 4 ranks between white and black belt instead of the 9 or 10 most Korean styles have? (White belt for 6 months, yellow belt for 6 months, green for 6 months, red or brown for a year) Probably so. But there is something to be said for breaking the curriculum down into bite sized chunks so the true beginner isn't completely overwhelmed. And for the student to always know a test is, at most, a couple of months away, so the need to master the new bit of curriculum has a bit of urgency.
To the OP: this is a good post on this topic. There are many different ideas of what a black belt "should" mean/be. The reality is twofold. Firstly, in the West, we have romanticized this idea, and expect a BB (the person wearing said belt) to be an expert on the order of what we've seen in movies. It's a natural reaction when we don't have other information. Now to the second part: BB (the rank) means whatever a given group assigns it to mean. It appears that (for the most part) the earliest uses of that rank (all the way back to Jigoro Kano, who started the whole belt-color ranking) was to designate people who were pretty good...not necessarily great, but good.
Today, most systems tend to fall into one of two camps: BB as a starting point (meaning you've got the basics and are ready for some real learning) and BB as advanced practitioner (meaning you've got a quite good grasp of the principles and application). The former often takes 1.5-3 years to get, while the latter typically takes 7-10 years to get. One is not inherently better than the other. If someone told me they'd decided BB was the first rank they'd give out (after a month or two of training) then they'd get into yellow, pink, and purple, I'd suggest it's confusing to everyone else in the MA world, but so long as everyone in their school knows what those colors mean, it shouldn't cause problems within their system.
In short, how long it takes to get to BB isn't much of a measure of quality of a school or system.
That's not necessarily a red flag. "Black belt" means something different in every martial arts style, and even between different organizations within the same style. In Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo Federation-style TKD (the biggest TKD organization), "black belt" means that you've gotten down all the basic material, and for a teenager or adult student that works hard and attends regularly, it's pretty common for a black belt to take 2-3 years. In Korea, from what I've been told, it's usually 1-2 years for black belt.
At white belt, no. White belts, in my experience, usually know just enough TKD to kick everywhere other than the protective gear, lol.
As to what I think you're asking..... some schools will offer specific classes for sparring, while others will have students spar during their regular classes on some days. Some will do both. Some schools will allow or expect all students to spar, no matter how new they are, while others expect students to develop some basic skills first and don't have them do real sparring until something like yellow or green belt.
All these approaches have merit. I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong way to do it - as long as sparring happens eventually. If students are getting to black belt without much sparring experience, *then* I think that's a problem. But if you haven't done sparring yet after *two weeks*, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
It can be done in as little as 11 months, assuming a student can pick up required white belt material fairly quickly.
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Deafdude#5
Green Belt
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You mentioned in your post that you have been going for 2 weeks. At my school, sparring doesn’t start until you’ve earned your yellow belt (8th gup).
Sparring is also kept to a separate class so as to maximize time & safety. Your instructor should be able to give you the specifics for their school regarding sparring.
You’re just starting to learn the basics. Work on getting the body mechanics down pat. Sparring will come soon enough. If you’re not sure, ask your instructor.
While 2 years may not seem like a long time, it isn’t unheard of to achieve a black belt in that time frame. It all depends on how much time one puts into going to classes, practicing outside of classes & improving the physical conditioning.
Bottom line, maybe it is & maybe it isn’t a McDojo.
But it’ll depend on how much you put in to it for yourself. Learn it, keep an open mind & keep moving forward.
Good luck!
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I agree that getting a quality BB in 2 years is doable. But I hear of many Dojangs that dictate how many classes a person can attend per week and have a rigid testing schedule so, assuming you do not miss a testing, the time to BB test is pre-set. In a rigid class attendance scenario self practice is critical to be any where near quality.
I also see students, particularly kids, with stripes and buttons on their belt between grades. And "pre-black belt" steps after attaining 1st Gup. If they have to pay for each of these then yes, I think that is a McDojo. I do agree with a Po Dan signification for 1st Dan students under 16 years of age.
Technically I get dictated to about how many classes I can attend per week, because they're closed at other times
And there's a fairly rigid testing schedule - once every 3 months.
But, not everyone tests every 3 months - you have to attend a certain amount of classes and demonstrate proficiency before being invited (not told) to grade. Also higher colour belts aren't eligible every 3 months either (I'm 3rd kup and half way through my 6 month minimum).
There's no extra mini rank badges or stripes either, and minimum ages for certain kup levels and 1st dan (under that age, you just don't test).
I would not take any conclusion from this alone. Usually, it is a mix of factors that shows the big picture. But they these are strong ‘red flags’ for me, inflated rankings and too many gradings (fees), especially the first which they seem to fail.
There are lists of ‘indicators’ online and even in this forum. Here - Warning: 93 Signs Your Dojo is a McDojo - an extensive list, as example, that fits more some McDojo than others.
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Questions like these (“is my school a McDojo”) really center around a concern about the quality of instruction and training that is being offered at the school, as well as the integrity, honesty, and accuracy of the instructors/owners in how they present their programs and what they claim their programs provide to the student. Underneath it all, the real question is: “am I getting quality training?”
The answer is: we do not know.
There are lots of reasons that a person might want to train. Why one person trains and what they want to get from the training could be very different from why I train, or why the next guy trains. And that will have a very direct effect on what school a person would choose to join, and their perception of and satisfaction with, “quality”.
I could look at a school, observe their training methods, look at their financial/fee/tuition/testing fee/hidden fee practices, interview the instructors and owners to assess their honesty and integrity and their level of self-delusion, and I can decide if I think it is a good school or a bad school or if it raises some red flags.
But my assessment would only be meaningful to someone who had exactly the same motivations and interests in training that i do. And even then, a difference in personal experience could lead that person to different conclusions than mine.
So it becomes very difficult to give a meaningful answer, especially over a medium like an internet discussion forum, when we have not even had a chance to observe the school. We have only the vague descriptions of someone who is very new and inexperienced, who may or may not be describing things in an accurate manner.
The best we can do is give some ideas to think about, some things that might raise red flags to us and why that is so, and the OP then needs to assess the particulars and make his own decisions about it. It’s an educational process, trying to decide if a school is offering high quality, or not.
The answer is: we do not know.
There are lots of reasons that a person might want to train. Why one person trains and what they want to get from the training could be very different from why I train, or why the next guy trains. And that will have a very direct effect on what school a person would choose to join, and their perception of and satisfaction with, “quality”.
I could look at a school, observe their training methods, look at their financial/fee/tuition/testing fee/hidden fee practices, interview the instructors and owners to assess their honesty and integrity and their level of self-delusion, and I can decide if I think it is a good school or a bad school or if it raises some red flags.
But my assessment would only be meaningful to someone who had exactly the same motivations and interests in training that i do. And even then, a difference in personal experience could lead that person to different conclusions than mine.
So it becomes very difficult to give a meaningful answer, especially over a medium like an internet discussion forum, when we have not even had a chance to observe the school. We have only the vague descriptions of someone who is very new and inexperienced, who may or may not be describing things in an accurate manner.
The best we can do is give some ideas to think about, some things that might raise red flags to us and why that is so, and the OP then needs to assess the particulars and make his own decisions about it. It’s an educational process, trying to decide if a school is offering high quality, or not.
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