MartialTalk and the COVID-19 Pandemic

[jobo]

Regarding freedom.

Ok. Consider road rules and stuff. If we look at the greater effects of road rules and car safety standards and all the other things that go in to getting you from point A to point B in a car. There is a greater net effect of freedom created.

People get to their destination quicker, faster, easier and safer because of limitations placed on travel. If we tested freedom by some pretty intuitive concepts like freedom to travel. Freedom of information. The ability to change professions. The ability to vote or protest or to participate in government decisions. And those sorts of things. Having roads that work because we don't allow some guy to drive a tank over cars in peak hour traffic really contributes to that.

But ideologically that is an attack on freedom because the concept is that everyone should be able to do what they want and screw the consequences.

And why ideological freedom is a terrible farce and mostly used by powerful people to screw less powerful.

If I own a tank then I should have the freedom to drive wherever I want. If I own a Honda civic then Mabye we should have a few rules in place.

Same with with covid, sensible rules will create greater freedom for everyone as a net result but ideological freedom will just screw people who are in certain age brackets or unable economically to protect themselves.

So for example. I don't wear a mask. I don't have a restriction on gathering i don't have much of a restriction on travel. And this is because we basically don't have a covid problem.

So I also don't run the risk of getting sick and dying and don't run the risk of anyone else getting sick or dying. And so they have more freedom there as well.

But we don't have covid because we locked down hard and stuck to it. So we were ideologically denied our freedoms but as a practical effect have more freedom.

freedom has always been temper by rules of society, you have absolute freedom to go and live some where else where the rules suit yoy better, people generaly dont want to move to a third world hell hole, so they give up some freedom for economic advatage/security

thats the nature of the social contract, you allow others to rule, in returm they look after you, sort of

the problem with the covid rules are they are not looking after your economic and security needs. the rules are not at all proportionate to the riskin the amount of freedom they remove.

ive seen no evidence that the various lock down measures have saved even a single life, the best they do is slow down the spread, the same number of people will die, just over a longer time period. so its all a pointless exercise in butt covering

 

[JowGaWolf]

ive seen no evidence that the various lock down measures have saved even a single life, the best they do is slow down the spread, the same number of people will die, just over a longer time period. so its all a pointless exercise in butt covering

I live in the U.S. and all one has to do is mark the chart dates of when the restrictions began and when they end. This way you can see how many people died during restrictions and how many people died without restrictions. All I know is that the places that had fewest restrictions are now in the Burnt Red. With the exception of one state that I know of. But that state had a lot of push back too. The U.S. is going to be an excellent case study for the future

 

[Steve]

I live in the U.S. and all one has to do is mark the chart dates of when the restrictions began and when they end. This way you can see how many people died during restrictions and how many people died without restrictions. All I know is that the places that had fewest restrictions are now in the Burnt Red. With the exception of one state that I know of. But that state had a lot of push back too. The U.S. is going to be an excellent case study for the future

View attachment 23325

Agreed. I really do not understand how some folks are so morally bankrupt that they would politicize this situation. And yet we have zealots who are so extreme that conservatives and liberals alike condemn them.

As with most things, they decry any efforts that inconvenience them. And when it affects them personally, they come around and wonder why we aren't doing enough.

 

[mograph]

ive seen no evidence that the various lock down measures have saved even a single life

What would that evidence look like?

 

[jobo]

What would that evidence look like?

it would look a bit sciency, include some data , some maths perhaps a graph or two, that sort of thing, have you got any such ?

 

[jobo]

I live in the U.S. and all one has to do is mark the chart dates of when the restrictions began and when they end. This way you can see how many people died during restrictions and how many people died without restrictions. All I know is that the places that had fewest restrictions are now in the Burnt Red. With the exception of one state that I know of. But that state had a lot of push back too. The U.S. is going to be an excellent case study for the future

View attachment 23325

DATA,,,,,,,,,,,, not a fuzzy map AnD your opinion

 

[Bruce7]

Like I said, I do believe this thing is real. And a lot of people are suffering because of it. But I challenge you to parse out the stats for death from Covid-19, the cold, flu, pneumonia and such. It cannot be accurately done.
There is a Great deal of fear mongering that is understandably encouraging people to go to the hospital. I have no idea how you reconcile facts like this into meaningful data.

Today I was at a funeral for a 79 year old cousin of my wife. She had advance heart and lung disease and had been in and out of the hospital for years, on the brink of death for as long. Her COD was ruled Covid-19. Naturally no one can say she did not have the virus. But it is quite backwards to say the virus was the COD.
Conversely, another cousin of my wife who lived with the deceased was at the funeral home. She is 84 years old and just recovered from the virus. Said she would not have known she had it had she not been tested. She felt fine the whole time. And her health status is about as bad as the deceased.
Go figure.

Facts:
In most of the country it is very hard to get into a hospital.
a) Many people with covid are not allow in the hospital unless their O2 levels are low.
b) Many people without covid who would normally be allow in the hospital are not allow.
c) Most hospitals are near capacity.
d) Doctors are having to make hard decisions as to who is sick enough to be in the hospital,
Knowing that a mistake may cost someone their life.
e) Doctors and nurse are begging people to wear mask and social distance.

It is our duty as Americans to do everything possible to slow the spread of the virus,
So Doctors and Nurses can keep us alive.

Here is a good math problem you may find interesting.
Take the number of deaths of people over 65 in 2020 then subtract the number number of deaths of people over 65 in 2019.
Then add that number to the covid deaths below 65.

 

[Steve]

What would that evidence look like?

In situations like this, it’s pretty easy to see the evidence in the results. Look at similar cases where lockdowns have occurred and where they haven’t, and compare. Look at the same place before, during, and after lockdowns. There is no question that things like a lockdown are effective at slowing the spread of the virus, though there are very legitimate debates to be had about the economic impact.

 

[Steve]

it would look a bit sciency, include some data , some maths perhaps a graph or two, that sort of thing, have you got any such ?

It’s readily available if you’d just take some time. You’re a blindfolded person asking for evidence of light. Just take the blindfold off and it’s easy to see.

 

[JowGaWolf]

DATA,,,,,,,,,,,, not a fuzzy map AnD your opinion

I agree. I think you should go get the Data and prove my opinion wrong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I live in the U.S. and all one has to do is mark the chart dates of when the restrictions began and when they end. This way you can see how many people died during restrictions and how many people died without restrictions. All I know is that the places that had fewest restrictions are now in the Burnt Red. With the exception of one state that I know of. But that state had a lot of push back too. The U.S. is going to be an excellent case study for the future

View attachment 23325

Forgot to post the source: Coronavirus Is Surging: How Severe Is Your State's Outbreak?

The data that was used on that page comes from John Hopkins University. "Johns Hopkins University's ranking in the 2021 edition of Best Colleges is National Universities, #9." This is the link to the medical school where this data comes from. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/

 

[jobo]

It’s readily available if you’d just take some time. You’re a blindfolded person asking for evidence of light. Just take the blindfold off and it’s easy to see.

no its isnt other wise one of you fear mongers would p[ost it

nb i didnt6 ask for evidence, i said ive seen non,, but then nether have you or anyone else for that matter

 

[jobo]

I agree. I think you should go get the Data and prove my opinion wrong.

but your opinion is always wrong on everything, its like you do it on purpose

 

[JowGaWolf]

but your opinion is always wrong on everything, its like you do it on purpose

DATA,,,,,,,,,,,, not a fuzzy opinion

You'll need to show some data on this one.

 

[jobo]

DATA,,,,,,,,,,,, not a fuzzy opinion

You'll need to show some data on this one.

ok the data shows that out of the last 100 opinions youve honoured us with 100% have been misguided to the point of stupidity

heres a pie chart

white shows all the times you been wrong, blue all the times you were correct

 

[dvcochran]

Facts:
In most of the country it is very hard to get into a hospital.
a) Many people with covid are not allow in the hospital unless their O2 levels are low.
b) Many people without covid who would normally be allow in the hospital are not allow.
c) Most hospitals are near capacity.
d) Doctors are having to make hard decisions as to who is sick enough to be in the hospital,
Knowing that a mistake may cost someone their life.
e) Doctors and nurse are begging people to wear mask and social distance.

It is our duty as Americans to do everything possible to slow the spread of the virus,
So Doctors and Nurses can keep us alive.

Here is a good math problem you may find interesting.
Take the number of deaths of people over 65 in 2020 then subtract the number number of deaths of people over 65 in 2019.
Then add that number to the covid deaths below 65.

I am working and could not quickly find info for 2019 but I did find an article from AARP that stated Flu related deaths were on the rise and over 12,000 died from the flu in 2018.
This is the kind of data that is impossible to find for 2020.
I fully believe the quandary’s you mention for doctors and nurses. It is a very tough nut.

 

[jobo]

In situations like this, it’s pretty easy to see the evidence in the results. Look at similar cases where lockdowns have occurred and where they haven’t, and compare. Look at the same place before, during, and after lockdowns. There is no question that things like a lockdown are effective at slowing the spread of the virus, though there are very legitimate debates to be had about the economic impact.

yes i said that, they seem effective at slowing down the rate of infection,,, but thats not the same as saving lives, if people just die a few months later, because its only been SLOWED, there still dead

 

[JowGaWolf]

ok the data shows that out of the last 100 opinions youve honoured us with 100% have been misguided to the point of stupidity

heres a pie chart

white shows all the times you been wrong, blue all the times you were correct

Sir... Sir... I'm gonna need you to hop back in your car

and show me your Pie Chart and Data Sir.

 

[jobo]

Sir... Sir... I'm gonna need you to hop back in your car

and show me your Pie Chart and Data Sir.

god you are dim

the pie chart is in white for all the times youve been wrong and blue for if you were correct

here it is again

 

[JowGaWolf]

yes i said that, they seem effective at slowing down the rate of infection,,, but thats not the same as saving lives, if people just die a few months later, because its only been SLOWED, there still dead

You make the assumption that the same number of people are destined to die from the virus which isn't true. A rate of 500 deaths a month for 24 months is not the same as 500 deaths a day. You literally only have to look at the number of people who have died between January and November. The places with fewer deaths had a slower rate of death than the U.S so the totals for January through November are lower because they SLOWED the number of deaths over a span of time. The same amount of people didn't die in the same about of time, from the same virus..