Martial Sport VS Self Defense

[TaiChiTJ]

I am not involved in TFT. I did find this video interesting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am not involved in TFT. I did find this video interesting.

The gas station video is one that I often use to explain the difference between self-defense and sports fighting. In sports fighting the object is to win. The purpose of self-defense is to control a situation or manipulate the environment in a way that ensures safety. If you are fighting then it means all other methods of self-defense has failed. It's difficult for many people to understand this.

Examples of not ensuring your safety.

Now for those doing the same thing and becoming the victim. How are your sports fighting skills going to help in this situation?

 

[Martial D]

What people tend to overlook is the overlap. A punch in the face that will land in the ring vs a trained fighter will also probably land on untrained Joe six-pack in the bar.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah this is what happens when self defence instructors dont really understand how fights work.
And so they think that loosing to multiple guys and a weapon is the fault of some sort of training issue. Rather than a multiple guys with a weapon issue.

 

[Buka]

The gas station video is one that I often use to explain the difference between self-defense and sports fighting. In sports fighting the object is to win. The purpose of self-defense is to control a situation or manipulate the environment in a way that ensures safety. If you are fighting then it means all other methods of self-defense has failed. It's difficult for many people to understand this.

Examples of not ensuring your safety.

Now for those doing the same thing and becoming the victim. How are your sports fighting skills going to help in this situation?

I really enjoyed that. Working at an airport I deal with numb skulls walking while looking at their phone, or texting while walking, multiple times a day, every single day. Even walking into oncoming traffic, even while pushing a baby in a baby carriage. It's unbelievable.

But on a different note, one thing I've used to my advantage several times at work, is using my phone to approach somebody who's a problem, without them knowing it. I'll just walk along, looking at my phone, either making like I'm texting or looking like I'm smiling and nodding at a video. Just like other people are doing. Next thing he knows I'm right beside him, right there at his elbow with a "Hi, how you doing?"
it's worked every time.

As for that last video, of people snatching a phone from somebody's hand, that's just nuts. And I'm sure it works well in a crowd.

 

[Mountie]

Yeah this is what happens when self defence instructors dont really understand how fights work.
And so they think that loosing to multiple guys and a weapon is the fault of some sort of training issue. Rather than a multiple guys with a weapon issue.

The whole episode ignores many basic self-defense principles.

It ended with multiple guys with a weapon, but there's more to it. These are things any self-defense instructor will tell you, expect their friends to show up, expect that they may be armed, talk, de-escalate, disengage. Only fight if you have to, and if you do win quickly then remove yourself from the situation.

They were arrogant. They started an unnecessary fight. Instead of looking to de-escalate or disengage, they got into their opponents faces, took the fight outside and continued to fight multiple opponents.

I'm not saying ring-fighters can't transfer their skills into practical situations, but in this case they did very poorly.

 

[Mountie]

What people tend to overlook is the overlap. A punch in the face that will land in the ring vs a trained fighter will also probably land on untrained Joe six-pack in the bar.

One of the reasons I like my nephew's school is that while they train for sports-fighting 3 times a week, once a month they bring in a self-defense instructor and train for practical situations. Sports fighting will give you an excellent set of self-defense tools, but it helps to get a little extra to apply those to a realistic situation.

And this works both ways. I train almost entirely for practical situations, but will go and spar with sports fighter to help improve my skills against trained fighters. I'm in their ring with their rules and often lose, but so what? I'm learning. Test your limits in a safe environment so you're ready for a dangerous one.

 

[Steve]

If someone tries to steal my phone I will knee him in the groin, then hit him at the base of the neck and then stomp him on the ground. I practice that a lot and I'm pretty sure it will work.

 

[CB Jones]

If someone tries to steal my phone I will knee him in the groin, then hit him at the base of the neck and then stomp him on the ground. I practice that a lot and I'm pretty sure it will work.

Note to self: Don't try and steal Steve's phone.

Additional Note to self: If you do try and steal Steve's phone where groin and neck protection.

 

[drop bear]

The whole episode ignores many basic self-defense principles.

It ended with multiple guys with a weapon, but there's more to it. These are things any self-defense instructor will tell you, expect their friends to show up, expect that they may be armed, talk, de-escalate, disengage. Only fight if you have to, and if you do win quickly then remove yourself from the situation.

They were arrogant. They started an unnecessary fight. Instead of looking to de-escalate or disengage, they got into their opponents faces, took the fight outside and continued to fight multiple opponents.

I'm not saying ring-fighters can't transfer their skills into practical situations, but in this case they did very poorly.

Which is not the point of the video. If avoid fights was the message then I wouldn't have an issue.

There is this idea that if you can point out a method doesn't work. You don't have to show your method working.

If the argument is made that different training has a better result we have to see that result.

 

[pdg]

If someone tries to steal my phone I will knee him in the groin, then hit him at the base of the neck and then stomp him on the ground. I practice that a lot and I'm pretty sure it will work.

Don't forget to restomp the groin...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What people tend to overlook is the overlap. A punch in the face that will land in the ring vs a trained fighter will also probably land on untrained Joe six-pack in the bar.

There is a huge overlap. Many of the skills (depending upon the type of competition) are applicable. If it's a full-contact sport (including most grappling), then application should translate. For my definition of self-defense, there's a ton of overlap (the biggest disparity is really just stuff that isn't allowed in competition or would get you in trouble on the street). There's a difference in approach, as there's a range of attacks that are unlikely in a competition, and those attacks open up some other responses that aren't very useful for competition.

Now, if we step out to the wider definition of self-defense that JGW is using (what I refer to as self-protection), most of that isn't all that relevant to competition. If someone trains specifically and solely for competition, there'd be none of that in their training.

Here's my view: it is possible to train for competition with the intent of self-defense. Training solely for competition (depending upon the type of competition) can provide good skills for the physical self-defense, and those can even be tweaked by training to serve better outside the competition.

 

[drop bear]

There is a huge overlap. Many of the skills (depending upon the type of competition) are applicable. If it's a full-contact sport (including most grappling), then application should translate. For my definition of self-defense, there's a ton of overlap (the biggest disparity is really just stuff that isn't allowed in competition or would get you in trouble on the street). There's a difference in approach, as there's a range of attacks that are unlikely in a competition, and those attacks open up some other responses that aren't very useful for competition.

Now, if we step out to the wider definition of self-defense that JGW is using (what I refer to as self-protection), most of that isn't all that relevant to competition. If someone trains specifically and solely for competition, there'd be none of that in their training.

Here's my view: it is possible to train for competition with the intent of self-defense. Training solely for competition (depending upon the type of competition) can provide good skills for the physical self-defense, and those can even be tweaked by training to serve better outside the competition.

Yeah if your aim is self defence. Competition is a training tool.


Otherwise real life happens everywhere. You need the tools to deal with that regardless what system you train.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Getting hit with a two by four reminded me of Ron White talking about getting hit with a Volvo. (LOL)

 

[Steve]

If you've never used skills n the ring or on the job, you're kidding yourself if you think you're better prepared for self defense than someone who has.

But the good news is that your chances of needing to defend yourself are very low, even if you engage in crazy, high risk behaviors, and that even then, most bad guys have no interest in killing you. And more good news is that what will likely keep you safe has nothing to do with your technique. People with no martial training at all successfully defend themselves all the time.

 

[Andrew Green]

Yeah this is what happens when self defence instructors dont really understand how fights work.
And so they think that loosing to multiple guys and a weapon is the fault of some sort of training issue. Rather than a multiple guys with a weapon issue.

That and there really is no way to prepare yourself mentally for someone swinging a 2x4 at your head full force.

I highly doubt someone who is not used to the adrenaline dump and fight or flight aspect of a trained fighter trying to swing punches and kicks at you full force would do better when the stakes go up even higher to weapons.

That said, it also completely misses the point that the difference is in training methods, not rules.

If scenario based training alone was more effective for teaching people to fight, fighters would spend all their time on scenario based training for in the ring scenarios... Which is partially true. I would bet every top level fighter drills specific scenarios. But those all get integrated back into sparring and live drills.

Get appropriate safety gear and training weapons and use the same methods combat athletes do and you'll get pretty good at dealing with weapons. Of course someone coming at you with a real weapon is going to be very different, and multiple people with weapons means you are at a very, very severe disadvantage.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah if your aim is self defence. Competition is a training tool.


Otherwise real life happens everywhere. You need the tools to deal with that regardless what system you train.

Yeah I'm not a fan of him. Not one bit. Not the best of attitudes.

 

[drop bear]

That and there really is no way to prepare yourself mentally for someone swinging a 2x4 at your head full force.

I highly doubt someone who is not used to the adrenaline dump and fight or flight aspect of a trained fighter trying to swing punches and kicks at you full force would do better when the stakes go up even higher to weapons.

That said, it also completely misses the point that the difference is in training methods, not rules.

If scenario based training alone was more effective for teaching people to fight, fighters would spend all their time on scenario based training for in the ring scenarios... Which is partially true. I would bet every top level fighter drills specific scenarios. But those all get integrated back into sparring and live drills.

Get appropriate safety gear and training weapons and use the same methods combat athletes do and you'll get pretty good at dealing with weapons. Of course someone coming at you with a real weapon is going to be very different, and multiple people with weapons means you are at a very, very severe disadvantage.

I tried it back in the day with a nerf bat and a friend who had no training whatever. And I ate a lot of nerf.

Again real time speed and timing makes weapons defence ridiculously hard.

Our scenarios for guys training to fight are not designed to be won. So we do it in sparring. And a person will call out a position and you have to stop and reset from that position. But then it is sparring again. If you don't get out. Tough.

I have done multiple opponent sparring in MMA. But I just got bashed. There was no trick to it.

 

[Buka]

Didn't know where to put this. Figured here was as good as any other place. Dealt with a lot of these things over the years.

There's just so many things wrong with this video. Personally, speaking entirely as a private citizen, I'd like to drown these guys in front of their parents. Including the victim. Harsh? Sure, but I consider it protection of our species.

Watch it until the end. There's a glitch/pause before it ends.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I tried it back in the day with a nerf bat and a friend who had no training whatever. And I ate a lot of nerf.

Again real time speed and timing makes weapons defence ridiculously hard.

Our scenarios for guys training to fight are not designed to be won. So we do it in sparring. And a person will call out a position and you have to stop and reset from that position. But then it is sparring again. If you don't get out. Tough.

I have done multiple opponent sparring in MMA. But I just got bashed. There was no trick to it.

Scenarios should be set up not to be won (beyond the beginner stage - they don't need help failing at that point). They should get progressively harder to win as the person's skill improves. Only movement drills and forms should be entirely winnable (you don't get a chance to fail at just "shrimping"). That's a flaw with how some places approach scenario training for self-defense. They don't progress the attacks much beyond beginner level. I've done "baseball bat" drills against those soft foam swords and against hard foam bats. I'm definitely not 100%, and if I find myself winning too often, I know someone's letting me win. But I have seen SD schools where it's really possible to "win" weapon defenses 99% of the time with a single response.