Martial Frankensteins...why the hate?

[Flying Crane]

Flying rne, awsome post.

rickster, sure Chinese martial arts has cobbled together systems, like arts from any other country. They do not have set principles and conepts. The training methodology is lacking also. They are crap for self defense, like any other cobbled together system without those things. Country of origin makes no difference, there will always be charlatans out there.

yes, agreed, no country of origin holds the monopoly.

The difference between a good system and a cobbled together Frankenstein mess is that a good system has an underlying methodology that ties everything together. As I keep saying, these are the principles that drive everything, and everything in the system works upon the same principles and the same underlying methodology, while a Frankenstein mess doesn't have an underlying methodology nor principles that tie it all together.

There are Chinese systems that were built upon the blend of other systems, and I am sure some amount of mixing always has and always will happen. Most of what exists today was based on something else, at some point in time. Nothing is ever created independently, in a vacuum. Choy lay Fut, and Fut Gar I believe, are examples.

But when things are blended together, there needs to be care taken to make sure that what is blended is ultimately compatible, that it all can function well on the same foundation, with the same principles, and the same methodology. If not, then it won't work well together and it too will be a Frankenstein.

Blending and mixing can work, if approached with the proper care and mindset and a clear set of parameters of how things need to function. But if the mixing is done haphazardly, it won't work. In my opinion, much of what we see today is mixed haphazardly.

 

[Zenjael]

I have found in learning 'so many' techniques as others would say, that a good deal of what I've learned, I've chosen to learn how to apply, where its applicapable, and after that, whether or not it's something I should use. If not, I do not use it.

It's why I have learned the forms of multiple systems, but have chosen to only continue practicing with a small few.

Learning a 1000 techniques isn't learning for the sake of learning; it's finding the one or two out of that many which are perfect for who you are, and how you practice martial arts. It also is helpful when working with people of different styles. Just like learning how to kick 100 times on one leg, with different kicks per kicks, without lowering it may not be so one can be uber awesome at kicking. Maybe it's to develop hip strength, or balance.

I see no reason to constrict myself to one art, when every art is but a different approach to the same problem, and one with an infinite different solutions to.

I can see the point of it perhaps being a waste of time... but it is my time, and I've found that it works for me.



If you guys would really like to understand my approach, and through that point my err if present, read this next passage. It should explain how I approach this.

I am a technique collector, but I think I'm a different kind. I know I have not been at this as long as others, but I have been at it for long enough to recognize the different types of techniques- and how to recognize those techniques I do not want.

For me I have 3 core fighting styles; a loose, experimentative one where I will employ anything which comes to mind, and usually is against people who are far beneath my ability level. When against someone who is of equal, I revert to a base of chung do kwan/krav maga/boxing. And for survival, I stick to just krav maga.

But understand I believe heavily in the tenet of staying off the ground from Krav Maga, and to give an example of what kind of collector I am, there is an example which occurred last week where I was introduced to a thai boxing class which utilized a kind of sweep where they catch with the other arm. I'm not interested in goundwork, nor risky techniques, and so while I may have seen it, learned it- I will never, ever use it in all likelihood.

I know who I am as a martial artist, and what needs work, and what is fine as is until something truly better comes along to improve it. Technique collecting makes it sound like I'm just grabbing at random, and trying to learn everything at random.

There isn't, for me, there is a process.

And to further argue the point, I've trained in hapkido, and jiujitsu, and a limited amount of Aikido. I see the logic of learning their techniques and holds, so I can learn those vulnerabilities. Because to, on the note of groundwork in terms of technique collecting, while every fight MAY end up on the ground, there is no reason for it to stay there, and likewise, the vast, vast majority of things which move the fight to the ground both leave the opponent vulnerable, and frankly opens the vital. I've yet to see a choke hold executed where I couldnt with ease have broken their foot, head, or bitten into their brachial artery in the upper arm, or radial artery, or even cephalic vein.

Because when I see groundwork- I see a system that only works under the parameters of that system. And when it's on the street, it's a closed system against an open-ended one, and against survival, grappling is lethal for whomever devotes time in a fight for it.

That's how I approach technique collecting, and learning new styles; I only keep what works for me, and what will truly add to me as a martial artist. I don't need 720 kicks to do that, and anything which doesn't work.

For example, in my pursuit of learning each style of TKD, I had to learn Oh Do Kwan, a style specifically designed for larger bodied people, of which I am not. While I know the curriculum up to 2nd dan, I almost never use it's techniques, though I can teach them effectively. It is true that small people of course can implement these techniques, but nowhere near as well as the physical body the art was designed for. So while I know how to do this style, teach it, I have opted not to include almost its entire system of techniques in the implement which I have trained to a point beyond muscle memory; where when I react, it takes in mind all the possible counters I know for it, and without jamming me in choice of which to use, I'll automatically use the one most appropriate.

What tends to jam me, is when people start using groundwork, and because the extend of my knowledge is just escapes, I tend to get jammed at NOT biting their jugular, or actually hurting them to get them off.

 

[rickster]

Here is a thought.....

What is more marveled/genius, the Frankenstein monster who was assembled, or the Dr who had the knowledge/skill to do this?

 

[WC_lun]

If you understand the principles and concepts that provide the base of a system, you do not need to learn thousands of techniques. Techniques are the manifestation of how a system works. Substituting more techniques in leu of understanding how a system operates does not increase a person's skill in martial arts. In fact, I would say it does exactly the opposite. It retards true understanding and slows real growth as a martial artist.

 

[Zenjael]

If you understand the principles and concepts that provide the base of a system, you do not need to learn thousands of techniques.

You are right, you absolutely do NOT need to. But... in the original TKD I learned, there was a specific way in which they crossed their arms to block, or move, while Chung Do Kwan there was another. In mixing the two, I have found to have created an even more efficient method to do what both did, which is to generate power. The point isn't to be a walking compendium, the point is to find the more efficient method.

Substituting more techniques in leu of understanding how a system operates does not increase a person's skill in martial arts. In fact, I would say it does exactly the opposite. It retards true understanding and slows real growth as a martial artist.

I agree that it would naturally have to retard the insight... for a time at least. For example. when I switched from Moo Duk Kwan to Chung Do Kwan, despite being a 3rd dan in moo duk kwan, the time when one should be focusing less on growth, and more on refining to perfection, Is topped practicing that art completely until my ability in Chung Do Kwan had matched it. Only then did I see that while my motive to stop practicing had been wrong (Its a bad style! F it. Imma learn this one which is BETTER) the result was right; I had gained comparative insight I had in one style, within another, and stepping back, could see how both could work together. In that I learned how to harmonize a style from WTF, with its opposite, from ITF.

I wouldn't say learning all the techniques which exist, and their application, makes one a better martial artist. Knowing which of those techniques to pick, in regards to one's own subjective ability, is growth though, when it's actually conducive, rather than detracting, and destructive. It's why I advise cross training, but only when one has a clearly defined base, so they can alter and change where necessary.

It is true also, that such mixing of arts creates... something which is not the original art. I think labeling it 'frankenstein' or anything else negative conveys a lack of ability to value that not only is that how most martial will be in our much more connected, and accessible world.

But I believe at some point, the art instills so much in a person's essence, that the true martial artist eventually internalizes that art. Every movement in life reflects their art, and hopefully their style definitively through that. I constantly circle walk at work (half-circle, pivots) because it makes it much easier to move about in the constrained space. And sooner or later, the art which has become a part of the martial artist, if they grow enough as an artist, will give themself back into the art.

I see it when I look at two extremely skilled students from one group I practice with; while both have only trained in chung do kwan, and it is clear they are both employing chung do kwan, it is also clear that how they move, subjectively, is much different from the other. Around 3rd dan, once the technical aspects have been mastered and spiritual begin to play as much a role, a person begins to do their art, but it is theirs then, no longer chung do kwan. It is their name-style of chung do kwan, or whatever art or person you want to sub.

And sooner or later, when you frankenstein things, and grow, give it direction, have an internal philosophy to guide the template... something emerges which is new. It's why so many can see pieces of this style or that, of their own... but not.

And if it works, and it is something where you can place it next to where it came from, and say without doubt that it is something different, why should that 'frankenstein' art not be respected as one? We all frankenstein our arts, even if we learn every technique in it; we still only use which is what works for us as martial artists.

I've just chosen not to constrain myself to one system, in that growth. And because of that you'll find I can box using virtually every (within reason- there are always styles, and techniques which I will be unaware of, and unlearned in) move available to the hands. While the Wing chun Boxer may stick to their center line, I'll shift from the horizontal punches of shotokan, to the straight line, vertical of Wing chun, to open-palm of ba-gua, to the brawling of boxing. I can use overhand, and under, because I've had the teachers who taught me all that diversity, and it was up to me to put it together so it works. And it does.

There is a fine line in MA where confidence appears as arrogance. Technique collecting does not make one better- just more knowledge, and it is true, knowledge can clutter and inhibit. But that's why we seperate our mind from our action in martial arts, why we reach for the zen of no thought, so that we may react to any instant, in the appropriate fashion. But I refuse to stop growing as a martial artist- and if anyone thinks I am the same kind of person who reaches for the new, while neglecting to hone what I already have, does not understand who I am as a martial artist.

When people ask me how I do things, it takes me time to stop, rethink what I did. I tend to forget- my body, and my mind react instinctively, and those instincts have been trained to use exactly what is necessary when, from the plethora of what I do KNOW.


It's like... just because I know how to execute a 720, or so and so technique, does not mean I've decided to internalize it so its the natural thing I'll reach for. Chances are, despite knowing it, I'll never even think of possibly thinking about using it in a fight.

I uh, guess the martial artist just needs to train their techniques to the point it's less of a choice response, and more an instinctual response, which has already taken into account all the choices, and chosen it for me. Immediately. And it sounds hard, but I use the fly as an example; they can see at all angles, at all times, and their minds are hardwired to calculate exactly what is approaching it; it's size, momentum, and such, and instantly that simple little mind instinctively chooses out of all the infinite possible paths and choices the one which WILL be the route of escape.

And humans are one of the few creatures who can just reprogram their mind, even if over time, to become like that. I just think most people don't realize the mind is so power, and that it determines reality to the extend, in martial arts, that our lack of seeing what to do, that jamming on all the choices, is having not learned to master the mind to automatically choose the efficient, and right choice.

Sure, we're human, and err. But that's what our training is for; so we don't, when it matters.

 

[WC_lun]

More technique does not equate to more knowledge. They are entirely two different things.

I can have a big tool box with thousands of dollars worth of tools, but if I do not know which tool to use, when to use it, and how to use it, then that tool box is worthless. Too many tools that I don't know how to use to look through, to find one i do know how to use. In a fighting scenario it is more complex because you do not have the luxary of time to pick and choose. If you do not have the basics down to instant reactions, then you are in trouble. At that point none of those thousands of technique matter because you cannot instantly apply them.

Cross training is indeed helpful, particularly if your training has an area that is lacking. However, just picking up techniques from this or that art is not really cross training. Cross training is learning how and why a different art does things. It is that understanding that broadens a martial artist's skills.

 

[Flying Crane]

I am a technique collector, but I think I'm a different kind.

everybody thinks this, but it's not true.

for the record: i've gone thru this stage myself. When I finally began to get the quality instruction I needed, to really understand one system well, then I realized how wrong I was about collecting.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Here is a thought.....

What is more marveled/genius, the Frankenstein monster who was assembled, or the Dr who had the knowledge/skill to do this?

He Said "Dr Who"

 

[frank raud]

And to further argue the point, I've trained in hapkido, and jiujitsu, and a limited amount of Aikido. I see the logic of learning their techniques and holds, so I can learn those vulnerabilities. Because to, on the note of groundwork in terms of technique collecting, while every fight MAY end up on the ground, there is no reason for it to stay there, and likewise, the vast, vast majority of things which move the fight to the ground both leave the opponent vulnerable, and frankly opens the vital. I've yet to see a choke hold executed where I couldnt with ease have broken their foot, head, or bitten into their brachial artery in the upper arm, or radial artery, or even cephalic vein.

This is not a brag, I guarantee if I put a choke hold on you, you would not be able to bite my arm or break my foot. Be glad to demonstrate any time. Unfortunately closest I will be to your neck of the woods will be Ohio in August. Of course, if you can do what you say, there will be approx 200 heavily experienced martial artists, shootoers and LEOs who would become your instant students.You are more than welcome to come to Ohio and demonstrate. I will cover the entrance fee for you ($200) and provide you with a place to crash for the weekend.

 

[elder999]

. I've yet to see a choke hold executed where I couldnt with ease have broken their foot, head, or bitten into their brachial artery in the upper arm, or radial artery, or even cephalic vein.
.

Dude, I could put a choke on you standing up, and you'd be dangling a foot off the ground. :lfao:The only thing you'd do "with ease" is go to sleep.

 

[Zenjael]

That sounds like quite an offer. Will it be open ended so I may take it when my own path allows me to?

Likewise, if you are in D.C., you are always more than welcome to join, and I'll have located a suitable place to stay. I doubt you'd want to crash where the oldest individual in the house is 30.

There is always, always someone better than you, and the exception to whatever the artist pride themself on. You are right of course, but it's never good to pass up a learning opportunity.

To Elder; pissing contests are pissing contests. Would you be willing to risk your arms to do as you say? That is the severity I treat groundwork. In my book, if you're on the ground, the next step is death no matter who you are, your abilities, or your specialty.

The difference though is that you'd be using control, and of course, me using the counters I trust to ACTUALLY get of the holds you and others are proud of are not allowable. So I'll concede, you could easily subdue me if it came to groundwork. But if this were the street... survival were the case, you would be better off walking away.

Like I said, I've trained in Hapkido and jiujitsu- and I've overcome state champions in grecco-romano wrestling. That does not change the fact I abhor groundwork.

Like I've said elsewhere, there is a difference between arrogance and confidence; I am not challenging anyone here, merely pointing out that a lot of groundwork is not avoidable, it's dangerous to the person attempting to initiate it.

 

[clfsean]

And to further argue the point, I've trained in hapkido, and jiujitsu, and a limited amount of Aikido. I see the logic of learning their techniques and holds, so I can learn those vulnerabilities. Because to, on the note of groundwork in terms of technique collecting, while every fight MAY end up on the ground, there is no reason for it to stay there, and likewise, the vast, vast majority of things which move the fight to the ground both leave the opponent vulnerable, and frankly opens the vital. I've yet to see a choke hold executed where I couldnt with ease have broken their foot, head, or bitten into their brachial artery in the upper arm, or radial artery, or even cephalic vein.

:bs:



Apparently you've never been choked properly.

 

[pgsmith]

The difference though is that you'd be using control, and of course, me using the counters I trust to ACTUALLY get of the holds you and others are proud of are not allowable. So I'll concede, you could easily subdue me if it came to groundwork. But if this were the street... survival were the case, you would be better off walking away.

You could be right. However, you have to realize a couple of things here ... one, many of the folks you're arguing with have workout clothing that's older than you. Two, most young people think they know everything, you seem to be no different. Three, You'll never really be able to get to the level of competence that you think you have now if you don't bother to listen to what those with much more experience have to say. You've got a million reasons and excuses why what you say is correct, but you need to hear the words that I used to tell my Scouts ... "If you find yourself making an excuse, you should stop and see what you've screwed up because you never have one without the other." Your posts are chock full of excuses for what you're saying, what you're thinking, and why the same goofball ideas that we've heard a million times are different, because it's you having them.

 

[elder999]

To Elder; pissing contests are pissing contests. Would you be willing to risk your arms to do as you say? That is the severity I treat groundwork. In my book, if you're on the ground, the next step is death no matter who you are, your abilities, or your specialty.

Not pissing, and not talking about "the ground." I'll reiterate: I could choke you standing up, and your feet would be dangling a foot off the ground. No stomps to the feet possible. No kicks to the knee. Maybe about 20 seconds of-I'm willing to bet-relatively bearable elbows, and maybe attempted headbutts-and 20 seconds might just be 12 too many....

 

[WC_lun]

I'm betting you wouldn't have to dangle him off the ground. Once the choke is applied by someone who knows what they are doing, you are screwed. Zenj, writing what you did about getting out of a choke shouts at your inexperience with them and just illustrates the point we are trying to make to you.

 

[oaktree]

Originally Posted by Zenjael
And to further argue the point, I've trained in hapkido, and jiujitsu, and a limited amount of Aikido. I see the logic of learning their techniques and holds, so I can learn those vulnerabilities. Because to, on the note of groundwork in terms of technique collecting, while every fight MAY end up on the ground, there is no reason for it to stay there, and likewise, the vast, vast majority of things which move the fight to the ground both leave the opponent vulnerable, and frankly opens the vital. I've yet to see a choke hold executed where I couldnt with ease have broken their foot, head, or bitten into their brachial artery in the upper arm, or radial artery, or even cephalic vein.

If a choke is properly executed then you will go to sleep before you can break the foot or head. Maybe if you able to position the body and get some leverage from the throat and arm choking you might buy you some time to get free but why go for something with such a low percentage as breaking a foot or head, better to get the pressure off your throat first and then work on something with a higher percent of success you can find a couple of decent ones.

Something similar to what I was taught with rear chokes, also most on youtube show similar things none I have seen shows foot breaking.
I doubt you could reach the artery with your mouth with the bicep or radial bone under your throat if anything you might break the skin before you are choked out.

 

[elder999]

I'm betting you wouldn't have to dangle him off the ground. Once the choke is applied by someone who knows what they are doing, you are screwed.

No doubt, really. I was just pointing out the sheer anatomical absurdity of what he said.

The last time I had occasion to choke a fella in "the str33tz," he was about Alex's size, and that's just what I did: dangle him off the ground...:lfao:

Of course, that was 18 years ago, when Alex was 4....:lol:

 

[MJS]

I have found in learning 'so many' techniques as others would say, that a good deal of what I've learned, I've chosen to learn how to apply, where its applicapable, and after that, whether or not it's something I should use. If not, I do not use it.

It's why I have learned the forms of multiple systems, but have chosen to only continue practicing with a small few.

Learning a 1000 techniques isn't learning for the sake of learning; it's finding the one or two out of that many which are perfect for who you are, and how you practice martial arts. It also is helpful when working with people of different styles. Just like learning how to kick 100 times on one leg, with different kicks per kicks, without lowering it may not be so one can be uber awesome at kicking. Maybe it's to develop hip strength, or balance.

I see no reason to constrict myself to one art, when every art is but a different approach to the same problem, and one with an infinite different solutions to.

I can see the point of it perhaps being a waste of time... but it is my time, and I've found that it works for me.



If you guys would really like to understand my approach, and through that point my err if present, read this next passage. It should explain how I approach this.

I am a technique collector, but I think I'm a different kind. I know I have not been at this as long as others, but I have been at it for long enough to recognize the different types of techniques- and how to recognize those techniques I do not want.

For me I have 3 core fighting styles; a loose, experimentative one where I will employ anything which comes to mind, and usually is against people who are far beneath my ability level. When against someone who is of equal, I revert to a base of chung do kwan/krav maga/boxing. And for survival, I stick to just krav maga.

But understand I believe heavily in the tenet of staying off the ground from Krav Maga, and to give an example of what kind of collector I am, there is an example which occurred last week where I was introduced to a thai boxing class which utilized a kind of sweep where they catch with the other arm. I'm not interested in goundwork, nor risky techniques, and so while I may have seen it, learned it- I will never, ever use it in all likelihood.

I know who I am as a martial artist, and what needs work, and what is fine as is until something truly better comes along to improve it. Technique collecting makes it sound like I'm just grabbing at random, and trying to learn everything at random.

There isn't, for me, there is a process.

And to further argue the point, I've trained in hapkido, and jiujitsu, and a limited amount of Aikido. I see the logic of learning their techniques and holds, so I can learn those vulnerabilities. Because to, on the note of groundwork in terms of technique collecting, while every fight MAY end up on the ground, there is no reason for it to stay there, and likewise, the vast, vast majority of things which move the fight to the ground both leave the opponent vulnerable, and frankly opens the vital. I've yet to see a choke hold executed where I couldnt with ease have broken their foot, head, or bitten into their brachial artery in the upper arm, or radial artery, or even cephalic vein.

Because when I see groundwork- I see a system that only works under the parameters of that system. And when it's on the street, it's a closed system against an open-ended one, and against survival, grappling is lethal for whomever devotes time in a fight for it.

That's how I approach technique collecting, and learning new styles; I only keep what works for me, and what will truly add to me as a martial artist. I don't need 720 kicks to do that, and anything which doesn't work.

For example, in my pursuit of learning each style of TKD, I had to learn Oh Do Kwan, a style specifically designed for larger bodied people, of which I am not. While I know the curriculum up to 2nd dan, I almost never use it's techniques, though I can teach them effectively. It is true that small people of course can implement these techniques, but nowhere near as well as the physical body the art was designed for. So while I know how to do this style, teach it, I have opted not to include almost its entire system of techniques in the implement which I have trained to a point beyond muscle memory; where when I react, it takes in mind all the possible counters I know for it, and without jamming me in choice of which to use, I'll automatically use the one most appropriate.

What tends to jam me, is when people start using groundwork, and because the extend of my knowledge is just escapes, I tend to get jammed at NOT biting their jugular, or actually hurting them to get them off.

Somehow though, you still think that this is the solution for being prepared for anything. Under stress, there's no way in hell, anyone is going to have the time to recall the exact tech to do for the situation. There're numerous Kenpo techs in the systems that I've done, yet they're simply to give an idea of a possible solution. The goal is not to have to be bound by a preset technique, but instead, to simply react. All of the times when I've done spontaneous reaction drills, where I have no idea what the attack is thats coming, its rare that I've done a full tech. Part of? Maybe, but a full textbook tech? Nope.

As its been said, its not the techs, but the basics, principles, concepts and ideas.

 

[MJS]

:bs:



Apparently you've never been choked properly.

LMFAO!!! Yes, I was thinking the exact same thing!!!

 

[Cyriacus]

Is it not also possible to put Your legs around someones torso - Standing up- As You choke Them?