Martial arts testing and society today

[Gerry Seymour]

This is actually a very good point. Cultivating resilience in kids is extremely important. often, the kids for whom most things come easy are the ones who give up when they don't.

Very true. Especially if they are praised/recognized for it being easy (when smart kids are praised for being smart, for instance).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

People often say things like 'it doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you have fun playing'.

People generally have more fun when they win.

It depends on the situation, to some extent. There are times when it's just fun to play, and keeping score is just part of the fun. When I played soccer growing up, if the other team didn't have enough kids to play and had to forfeit, I'd volunteer to play on their team so we could play an unofficial game (technical forfeit still stood), instead of not playing at all.

The problem is that some folks seem to have decided that competition takes the fun out of the game and damages the psyche of the losing team members. I lost a lot of games growing up. My coaches' and parents' attitudes toward them taught me to deal with loss with equanimity.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

its not politics, its philosophy , and in keeping with the op.

for instance, if most of the highest paid jobs are held by white privately educated males, its reasonably clear that there isn't equality of opportunity. Otherwise they would be more equally spread across gender social back ground and ethnic origin. This is self evidently true, there no other way to measure it than out comes

That's not in line with your original statement that you can tell the equality of opportunity by the equality of outcome. If that were true, the guy starting in the worse position would always lose.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"the number one predictor of achievement in western society is intelligence,, the number two predictor is conscientiousness. ....so who gets ahead , smart people who work hard"
Jordan Peterson

That's demonstrably untrue. Intelligence has never been a very good predictor of success.

 

[DaveB]

since you wouldnt listen to me anyway... here is your philosophy. i hightly advise watching the entire length of all clips

3:25 second clip
"the number one predictor of achievement in western society is intelligence,, the number two predictor is conscientiousness. ....so who gets ahead , smart people who work hard"
Jordan Peterson

7:03 min
"correlation does not imply causation"
to push the concept of equality of outcome cancels out the possibility of free will and free choice.

Ok clip 1. Totally false. Only psychopaths work to be better than others. The whole premise is a complete misdirection because having equality of outcome among groups is not the same as equal distribution of resources. But even if it was his argument has been disprove over and over. Look up the zietgeist movement and some of their videos cite the studies as well as detailing the many flaws with this bs argument.

Clip 2: More spurious premises. Who are these people who want equal distribution of resources?

So if not everyone can be a neurosurgeon but society needs people at all levels why should those at the bottom not be able to survive on what they earn? Since you can admit we can't all be the best in your hierarchical structure how do you justify the confluence of forces that keep people pinned in a position that they won't excel at or earn enough to fully participate in society or better themselves???

Ultimately this guy is a typical right wing pundit, arguing against a caricature of the opposing view, throwing up straw man after straw man to spout them good ol' common sense wisdoms, that are as often b.s. as truth.

I might check out 3 later, but I anticipate more of the same.

 

[hoshin1600]

Look up the zietgeist movement and some of their videos cite the studies as well as detailing the many flaws with this bs argument.

I did a quick look at it on Wikipedia and I Google it. All I could find out is they want to deconstruct the current money economic system and gather all our resouces from outer space and they believe in a global economy and utopian society.

 

[hoshin1600]

Sorry guys if I offended anyone. I can't really have these conversations here. It really makes me angry and frustrated. I am not political. I hate all politicians equally. I am super rational and logical. I don't buy into anything anyone says I always have to make my own conclusions. I am also very open to 180 degree change of thought if the evidence shows me otherwise. When ever I get into these discussions it seems the other person does nothing more than throw out retoric and regurgitate media snippets. It is really frustrating. I really enjoy MT but for the sake of my own sanity I can't debate topics like this. We all have different views and no one is gonna convince anyone to change their mind here on a forum. I started to get sucked into it, I'm sorry, but I'm going to go do some kata, clear my head , enjoy my day and see yall in another thread.

 

[DaveB]

I did a quick look at it on Wikipedia and I Google it. All I could find out is they want to deconstruct the current money economic system and gather all our resouces from outer space and they believe in a global economy and utopian society.

Yup that's them.

The studies they vote in support of their ideas are worth looking at. Outside of that I don't support or endorse nor denigrate this group.

 

[Steve]

We have an epidemic of people who lack real self-confidence, because they were taught it's easy to win. Their confidence is thin, and easily damaged. Real self-confidence doesn't crumble with failure, and doesn't need constant reinforcement for participation. The "everyone gets a medal" is a bastardization of the concept of rewarding people for effort, rather than just result (which is actually sound advice, because it teaches them that failing is okay). But if someone isn't putting in any real effort, rewarding them isn't helpful or supportive.

agreed. we see this in some posters on this forum. But whether the lack of resilience is due to peewee sports is debatable.

 

[Steve]

This. Both parts of it.

First, we have to see that there are two things we should be rewarding: effort and results. If someone gets results with no effort, IMO, they should be pushed harder. I'll hold a superstar to a higher standard, because they thrive under that pressure and wilt without it. I won't lower the standards appreciably for someone who can't reach them, but I'll find other ways to ensure they are rewarded/recognized for their effort, and to help them see they aren't failing - they're just not reaching that required standard.

That's the inherent problem with youth martial arts that are not sports. The non sport schools teach kids respect and discipline. And as you note above, these are ancillary traits that result from effort and results.

 

[DaveB]

Sorry guys if I offended anyone. I can't really have these conversations here. It really makes me angry and frustrated. I am not political. I hate all politicians equally. I am super rational and logical. I don't buy into anything anyone says I always have to make my own conclusions. I am also very open to 180 degree change of thought if the evidence shows me otherwise. When ever I get into these discussions it seems the other person does nothing more than throw out retoric and regurgitate media snippets. It is really frustrating. I really enjoy MT but for the sake of my own sanity I can't debate topics like this. We all have different views and no one is gonna convince anyone to change their mind here on a forum. I started to get sucked into it, I'm sorry, but I'm going to go do some kata, clear my head , enjoy my day and see yall in another thread.

That's a shame but we'll done for avoiding an unpleasant place.

I would describe myself exactly as you did yourself, but on the other side of the spectrum from the media snippets of the rhetoric spouter you posted. Discussion would have been interesting.

 

[DaveB]

Gpseymour what did you disagree with?

 

[CB Jones]

That's demonstrably untrue. Intelligence has never been a very good predictor of success.

Then what is a better predictor than intelligence and conscientiousness?

I'm putting my money on the hardworking smart guy over the lazy dumbarse...everytime.

 

[Steve]

Then what is a better predictor than intelligence and conscientiousness?

I'm putting my money on the hardworking smart guy over the lazy dumbarse...everytime.

What about the lazy smart guy or the hard working guy who isn't smart?

 

[drop bear]

It is definitely not the attitude we have in our gym.

"Excuses are a way for people to hide from their own insecurities. If you never put 100% in then you always have an excuse for failure.

It's better to try and fail then never to have tried at all.

Courage is putting in everything you have falling short then finding the determination to pick yourself up and claw, fight and drag yourself forward that's how you become a better version of yourself.

Through adversity can you find the kinda person you truly are and what your capable of. Happy Sunday"

Anton Zafir.

 

[drop bear]

What about the lazy smart guy or the hard working guy who isn't smart?

Or the guy who uses daddys money. Or just won the lottery.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

agreed. we see this in some posters on this forum. But whether the lack of resilience is due to peewee sports is debatable.

Peewee sports I know nothing about. But this has been happening in some schools and some sports events (I don't know about leagues). And some of the advice that came out in pop-psych a generation ago led to some parents using this approach, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's the inherent problem with youth martial arts that are not sports. The non sport schools teach kids respect and discipline. And as you note above, these are ancillary traits that result from effort and results.

I don't really see it as a problem for non-sports MA. Testing allows instructors to reward for results, and there are numerous ways to recognize effort.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gpseymour what did you disagree with?

The tone and content of the post.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then what is a better predictor than intelligence and conscientiousness?

I'm putting my money on the hardworking smart guy over the lazy dumbarse...everytime.

Depending how conscientiousness is defined, it may be a good predictor. The ability to continue in spite of hardship (perseverance) has proven to be a more accurate predictor, as has what Daniel Goleman termed "emotional intelligence". There are plenty of intelligent people who fail to meet their potential, and plenty of successful people (easy to find in business) who are of average intelligence.