Martial arts testing and society today

[Headhunter]

So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.

Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.

But I don't put that blame on martial art teachers. It's the way society is today. In schools now we have non competitive sports days where everyone's a winner or cross county races where no one gets timed and everyone gets a medal. People are to afraid to tell a kid they lost. They think it'll upset a kid if they lose and it'll damage their self confidence.

To me that's nonsense. You win or you lose it's as simple as that. A kid loses a running race oh well suck it up life goes on.

It makes the kids think they deserve a reward for doing nothing basically. Why bother putting in the effort when you can just the bare minimum and get the same reward as the guy who won and put 100% In.

It's the same in martial arts now. Parents want their kids to think they're great and if they fail they'll leave so instructors will give them the belts so they stay and their confidence stays high.

None of this does kids any good at all in the long run. When they get to adulthood they won't be protected like they were as kids. They'll experience losses in jobs, sports, relationships etc and since they'll have never dealt with this before they won't know how to cope.

I remember when I was a kid about 8 I did a running race for sports day I came dead last by a long margin. That was before I started martial arts and frankly I was a lazy git then but losing like that it motivated to get myself better so I started running more.

Sorry for the random rambles but it's something I've been thinking about and I wanted to write it down

 

[mber]

I think, for any instructor, a lot depends on your available audience.
If you got into teaching because you love the art and love working with people, then yeah, for sure you're going to try your hardest to maintain the quality and rigor that you have passion for.
But you're also a businessman (or woman), relying on the whims of the public to feed your family.
What's a sensei or kyosa to do?

 

[Headhunter]

I think, for any instructor, a lot depends on your available audience.
If you got into teaching because you love the art and love working with people, then yeah, for sure you're going to try your hardest to maintain the quality and rigor that you have passion for.
But you're also a businessman (or woman), relying on the whims of the public to feed your family.
What's a sensei or kyosa to do?

That's why I always prefer trainers who aren't full time trainers and don't rely on the school for their money.

 

[Steve]

Can you point me to a link to any organized sport league for a child over 8 that doesn't keep score or time races? I've seen things like this for kindergarteners but, like most things, I think its grossly exaggerated.

 

[Headhunter]

Can you point me to a link to any organized sport league for a child over 8 that doesn't keep score or time races? I've seen things like this for kindergarteners but, like most things, I think its grossly exaggerated.

Oh yeah sure hang on let me just pull up all these details about school events....no of course I can't but my daughter is a teaching assistant at a primary school and they do have these things

 

[jobo]

So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.

Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.

But I don't put that blame on martial art teachers. It's the way society is today. In schools now we have non competitive sports days where everyone's a winner or cross county races where no one gets timed and everyone gets a medal. People are to afraid to tell a kid they lost. They think it'll upset a kid if they lose and it'll damage their self confidence.

To me that's nonsense. You win or you lose it's as simple as that. A kid loses a running race oh well suck it up life goes on.

It makes the kids think they deserve a reward for doing nothing basically. Why bother putting in the effort when you can just the bare minimum and get the same reward as the guy who won and put 100% In.

It's the same in martial arts now. Parents want their kids to think they're great and if they fail they'll leave so instructors will give them the belts so they stay and their confidence stays high.

None of this does kids any good at all in the long run. When they get to adulthood they won't be protected like they were as kids. They'll experience losses in jobs, sports, relationships etc and since they'll have never dealt with this before they won't know how to cope.

I remember when I was a kid about 8 I did a running race for sports day I came dead last by a long margin. That was before I started martial arts and frankly I was a lazy git then but losing like that it motivated to get myself better so I started running more.

Sorry for the random rambles but it's something I've been thinking about and I wanted to write it down

there are more important thing at stake, than if I kid deserves a belt or not, effort should be rewarded in children not that they reach an elite level, some children can do that with no effort at all. Otherwise you are teaching them that no matter how hard they try they are still not good enough.

it matters nothing in the other thread, if the ops kid is given a belt they haven't reached the standard for, it matters a great deal if they feel a failure for not getting one after trying their best

 

[Steve]

Oh yeah sure hang on let me just pull up all these details about school events....no of course I can't but my daughter is a teaching assistant at a primary school and they do have these things

Lol. This is a pillar of your argument. If you can't support that these kinds of sports leagues are common, your entire position is flawed.

 

[Steve]

there are more important thing at stake, than if I kid deserves a belt or not, effort should be rewarded in children not that they reach an elite level, some children can do that with no effort at all. Otherwise you are teaching them that no matter how hard they try they are still not good enough.

it matters nothing in the other thread, if the ops kid is given a belt they haven't reached the standard for, it matters a great deal if they feel a failure for not getting one after trying their best

This is actually a very good point. Cultivating resilience in kids is extremely important. often, the kids for whom most things come easy are the ones who give up when they don't.

 

[Hyoho]

I have seen a group formed that follewed Japanese arts with strict intentions of "not" doing gradings and wanting to follow a path along classical lines. Strict allegiance to one particular sensei in Japan. Many more new members joined and were soon asking about gradings. Seniors were then asking what they should do? I was suggested they just do grades within the group. So to an extent everything did digress a little ina democratic manner to encourage new people.

What really needs to be considered is 'What is a grading'?

It should be an ackowledgement of how far you have managed to succeed in what you do and no more. It requires a lot of humility.

In actual fact some Japanese Renmei have now cut out higher grades completely. For example who is to acknowledge a Kyudan? A panel of Hachidan? It has not worked in the past and has caused consternation. And most amusing of all is the people that have refused to be acknowledged above their fellow practitioners have recieved the most respect! When we step out on to the dojo floor all can see who is the best without waving a piece of paper around.

 

[hoshin1600]

Lol. This is a pillar of your argument. If you can't support that these kinds of sports leagues are common, your entire position is flawed.

I dont agree that this is the pillar of his argument. But rather an example. The example could be right or wrong in fact but there is a common belief that this happens.
This one example should not be the focus of the debate. It is true that the entire American culture is in a debate over equality. Equal rights for every group from skin color to LGBT, rich and poor. Every single group is fighting for equality but it's the type of equality that makes a big difference. All of these groups and social justice warriors are looking for equally of outcome!!!! The conventional view has always been equality of opportunity. There is a huge difference between the two and the political powers are trying to do a slight of hand change in meaning to get their way. To the OP post, if someone was a Republican in a democratic landscape this is all very apparent.

 

[jobo]

I dont agree that this is the pillar of his argument. But rather an example. The example could be right or wrong in fact but there is a common belief that this happens.
This one example should not be the focus of the debate. It is true that the entire American culture is in a debate over equality. Equal rights for every group from skin color to LGBT, rich and poor. Every single group is fighting for equality but it's the type of equality that makes a big difference. All of these groups and social justice warriors are looking for equally of outcome!!!! The conventional view has always been equality of opportunity. There is a huge difference between the two and the political powers are trying to do a slight of hand change in meaning to get their way. To the OP post, if someone was a Republican in a democratic landscape this is all very apparent.

the only way you can tell if two groups had equality of opportunity, is to view the equality of the outcomes

 

[RTKDCMB]

People often say things like 'it doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you have fun playing'.

People generally have more fun when they win.

 

[hoshin1600]

the only way you can tell if two groups had equality of opportunity, is to view the equality of the outcomes

That is the single dumbest thing I ever heard. But to reply to it would send us down a rabbit hole of politics and that is against the rules to discuss here on MT so I will leave it alone.

 

[jobo]

That is the single dumbest thing I ever heard. But to reply to it would send us down a rabbit hole of politics and that is against the rules to discuss here on MT so I will leave it alone.

its not politics, its philosophy , and in keeping with the op.

for instance, if most of the highest paid jobs are held by white privately educated males, its reasonably clear that there isn't equality of opportunity. Otherwise they would be more equally spread across gender social back ground and ethnic origin. This is self evidently true, there no other way to measure it than out comes

 

[DaveB]

So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.

Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.

But I don't put that blame on martial art teachers. It's the way society is today. In schools now we have non competitive sports days where everyone's a winner or cross county races where no one gets timed and everyone gets a medal. People are to afraid to tell a kid they lost. They think it'll upset a kid if they lose and it'll damage their self confidence.

To me that's nonsense. You win or you lose it's as simple as that. A kid loses a running race oh well suck it up life goes on.

It makes the kids think they deserve a reward for doing nothing basically. Why bother putting in the effort when you can just the bare minimum and get the same reward as the guy who won and put 100% In.

It's the same in martial arts now. Parents want their kids to think they're great and if they fail they'll leave so instructors will give them the belts so they stay and their confidence stays high.

None of this does kids any good at all in the long run. When they get to adulthood they won't be protected like they were as kids. They'll experience losses in jobs, sports, relationships etc and since they'll have never dealt with this before they won't know how to cope.

I remember when I was a kid about 8 I did a running race for sports day I came dead last by a long margin. That was before I started martial arts and frankly I was a lazy git then but losing like that it motivated to get myself better so I started running more.

Sorry for the random rambles but it's something I've been thinking about and I wanted to write it down

Assuming this deemphasis of winning and losing is happening, what evidence have you that it promotes a sense of entitlement?

This is something that sounds right but has absolutely zero basis in anything.

It is a position that is espoused for no other reason than to normalise inequality by making people who want equality seem like cry babies.
I'm not saying that this is your reason, but it is why pundits and journalists started spouting it and since then every old fart who sees that the next generation is doing things differently (and therefore badly; a tale as old as time) has picked up the cry.

Some kids stomach losing and it's fine. Some kids get very depressed and never want to do that thing again. And because people are different and have different lives and different parents no pop answer about "well their parents should.." is going to work for everyone.

So which child should we emotionally injure so that the winner's victory is more meaningful? Yours?

I have a young son with autism and negative experiences roll around his mind over and over for weeks. So when sports day was about having fun rather than winning I was over the moon. But do you really think that stopped him noticing when he came last or when he came first??? Of course it didn't. Winners crowed and losers wept just the same. All the participation awards meant was that the kids had a souvenir and something their patents could make a fuss over.

Competition and disappointment can and will come later. We still have football league's, athletics competitions, art competitions creative writing contests, Olympic games etc etc. Nobody has taken away competition from the world.

Winning and losing is ingrained into our culture even though it's been shown that humans find cooperative games far more rewarding than competitive ones. The fact we commonly believe otherwise is testament only to how much we allow psychopaths to shape society.

Entitlement is not shaped by participation awards. It is shaped by genes and parenting, just like everything else.

And entitlement is one of society's most celebrated traits so long as we judge the person deserving. This very argument is one if entitlement: "I'm entitled to my pedestal as the winner, your participation awards deminish my achievement".

To those who hold such views I say, your not entitled to anything. Let winning be it's own reward and learn that in the real world hard work does not always get you a step beyond your peers.

As to the martial arts and belt awards.

All the hype about what rank means is crap that people invented to boistbtheir own ego's.

Belts were introduced with one purpose, to help people focus on a small goal in the course of a long term training program. Later it helped make teaching easier. That's it.

Now again going back to highly emotional and chaotic young kids being put into a testing environment when their teacher is solely responsible for their ability at that stage...

Failure should not be an option.

Why are you testing them if they are not ready? Your class assessment should have weeded out those not yet able long before the grading. If you know they can do but aren't performing on the day, that's a pretty arbitrary measure for a lifetime pursuit.

When you have older kids and adults whose time and thus whose training are their own affair then you can start testing and withholding belts, but with young kids it's on the teacher and no one else.

 

[hoshin1600]

its not politics, its philosophy , and in keeping with the op.

for instance, if most of the highest paid jobs are held by white privately educated males, its reasonably clear that there isn't equality of opportunity. Otherwise they would be more equally spread across gender social back ground and ethnic origin. This is self evidently true, there no other way to measure it than out comes

since you wouldnt listen to me anyway... here is your philosophy. i hightly advise watching the entire length of all clips

3:25 second clip
"the number one predictor of achievement in western society is intelligence,, the number two predictor is conscientiousness. ....so who gets ahead , smart people who work hard"
Jordan Peterson

7:03 min
"correlation does not imply causation"
to push the concept of equality of outcome cancels out the possibility of free will and free choice.

 

[DaveB]

its not politics, its philosophy , and in keeping with the op.

for instance, if most of the highest paid jobs are held by white privately educated males, its reasonably clear that there isn't equality of opportunity. Otherwise they would be more equally spread across gender social back ground and ethnic origin. This is self evidently true, there no other way to measure it than out comes

This is only true if we are all equally able. If we are not and some are not and say black people are inherently less able then we can't expect equal outcomes.

So now you see the insidious Nazi-esq thinking that this wave of normalised right wing thinking comes from.

Some groups are just better than others so of course those better folks are at the top despite the equality of opportunity we so obviously have.

And if some folks just aren't as good how does it help us let them in the country. Or if they are here already we shouldn't have to give them jobs or respect their backwards wishes. Rather controlling them is the best way to keep the "good" people safe...

Not calling anyone out as anything, but these ideas have filtered into the mainstream through pundits and right wing groups who know full well what origins they have and what conclusions they lead to. Most who think they are a good idea don't know.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.

Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.

But I don't put that blame on martial art teachers. It's the way society is today. In schools now we have non competitive sports days where everyone's a winner or cross county races where no one gets timed and everyone gets a medal. People are to afraid to tell a kid they lost. They think it'll upset a kid if they lose and it'll damage their self confidence.

To me that's nonsense. You win or you lose it's as simple as that. A kid loses a running race oh well suck it up life goes on.

It makes the kids think they deserve a reward for doing nothing basically. Why bother putting in the effort when you can just the bare minimum and get the same reward as the guy who won and put 100% In.

It's the same in martial arts now. Parents want their kids to think they're great and if they fail they'll leave so instructors will give them the belts so they stay and their confidence stays high.

None of this does kids any good at all in the long run. When they get to adulthood they won't be protected like they were as kids. They'll experience losses in jobs, sports, relationships etc and since they'll have never dealt with this before they won't know how to cope.

I remember when I was a kid about 8 I did a running race for sports day I came dead last by a long margin. That was before I started martial arts and frankly I was a lazy git then but losing like that it motivated to get myself better so I started running more.

Sorry for the random rambles but it's something I've been thinking about and I wanted to write it down

We have an epidemic of people who lack real self-confidence, because they were taught it's easy to win. Their confidence is thin, and easily damaged. Real self-confidence doesn't crumble with failure, and doesn't need constant reinforcement for participation. The "everyone gets a medal" is a bastardization of the concept of rewarding people for effort, rather than just result (which is actually sound advice, because it teaches them that failing is okay). But if someone isn't putting in any real effort, rewarding them isn't helpful or supportive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think, for any instructor, a lot depends on your available audience.
If you got into teaching because you love the art and love working with people, then yeah, for sure you're going to try your hardest to maintain the quality and rigor that you have passion for.
But you're also a businessman (or woman), relying on the whims of the public to feed your family.
What's a sensei or kyosa to do?

I've heard it said before that this is a necessity for commercial dojos. I don't think that's true. Sure, you have to take the audience into account, but there are commercial dojos doing okay (not paying 6-figure incomes, but paying an income to the instructor(s)) who have reasonable standards. In fact, the softest dojos I know are actually shrinking.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

there are more important thing at stake, than if I kid deserves a belt or not, effort should be rewarded in children not that they reach an elite level, some children can do that with no effort at all. Otherwise you are teaching them that no matter how hard they try they are still not good enough.

it matters nothing in the other thread, if the ops kid is given a belt they haven't reached the standard for, it matters a great deal if they feel a failure for not getting one after trying their best

This. Both parts of it.

First, we have to see that there are two things we should be rewarding: effort and results. If someone gets results with no effort, IMO, they should be pushed harder. I'll hold a superstar to a higher standard, because they thrive under that pressure and wilt without it. I won't lower the standards appreciably for someone who can't reach them, but I'll find other ways to ensure they are rewarded/recognized for their effort, and to help them see they aren't failing - they're just not reaching that required standard.