Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.

[lklawson]

All Martial Arts were designed for self-defense with the chance of seriously injuring your opponent. I'm aware of that, yes.

No they weren't. Some were "designed" for sport. Some for recreation. Some for exercise and health. Some for Esprit de Corps. Alfred Hutton's "Great Stick" method of fighting with a ~5' staff is an example of this. I can point to at least 3 methods of "Quarterstaff" which were specifically designed for either sport or exercise.

 

[lklawson]

Kata is divided into the elements of:

Once everyone can agree on the purpose of Kata.

 

[lklawson]

chapter 9

Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia

The Elements

It's actually a very well-known concept the Japanese use & apply to their techniques.

We use it in all of our kata.

Some kata require you to be more stabilised, & rooted (earth), while others require you to move around freely (wind - like Aikido).

Strangely, none of these show up in any of the Judo kata or the Aikdio (Tomiki) kata I learned.

I think maybe you are assuming things about other arts based on insufficient information about them.

 

[lklawson]

My Sensei also describes the energies giving such examples. That's the only way to bring the message across clearly... I'm glad you can relate. :')

"Your Sensei." You need to understand that you're speaking with a bunch of people who are already Sensei, including Chris, Hyoho, Tony, Tez, and, well, a bunch more.

It's a little bit like a Jr. High student arguing with the entire faculty of a University.

 

[lklawson]

Nearly every activity and trade had a Guild or Company then, these dated back centuries before the Tudor era. Many Guilds and Companies are still going strong now. Training for trades was considered a serious business and took years even though much of the technology was basic one still had to learn it thoroughly. Martial arts would have been no different, people didn't rush through training so they became craftsmen, with a deep knowledge and experience of their trade. This is why the cathedrals and other buildings they put up are still standing now for example, much of what they made in ceramics, silver, wood etc is still around today as well. Again martial arts is no different, one trains for deep understanding and skill, not for 'oh that'll do'.

That is exactly 100% right.

As fun as it is to argue with you, I can find no fault in this statement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

And Drumpf could be very easily thought of as a rather intense political statement when combined with Fuhrer.

It is a political statement. In U.S. at the moment, "Drumpf" is a common derisive term for President Donald Trump, who is often described by those who dislike, disagree with, or oppose him politically, as a Nazi, hence "Fuhrer"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tarrycat]

Tarrycat, i believe you find the romantic language appealing but it is really not helpful. you say that you cannot explain it any other way. perhaps that is because you are still a relative beginner and do not really understand the concepts. if someone really understands then they should be able to use common language that the layperson can understand. if the concept is fully dependent on mystic, criptic words then maybe they only exist in the mystic realm. when i say "Iwo no mi" no one understands what i am saying. its not even current Japanese language. one of the tell tale signs of false arguments is when people make up their own words, it allows them to put any meaning they like on it and twist and turn it at will and tell others "well you just cant understand"

while romantic phrases are appealing in martial arts they are often a translation of Japanese , which lends itself to misunderstandings and inaccurate translations.

No, I disagree to an EXTENT with your opinion; but that doesn't make it wrong. It's just that mine differs.

My Sensei has been doing Ninjutsu for 30 years now & he can't even fully explain the energies. He can describe it the way you have, but that's about it. When he DEMONSTRATES it, THEN only are the students able to fully grasp it - whether they are advanced or not. The only difference between advanced students & beginners, is that advanced students, over the years of training, can apply the energy more effortlessly. My Sensei says it takes a while, for some it takes years to perfect the energy used in Ninjutsu.

You ARE right in saying that once you make up words, it can entirely miss the purpose of the technique, or be a bit misleading - in some cases, yes. However, when my Sensei describes it to me like that, MY brain can understand it better, mysticism or not. I don't think like everyone else does; so when I AM able to fully grasp it in such a way, that's all that matters to me. It doesn't matter to me what YOU think or the next person. In fact, how I learn & how I am taught, will NOT be the same for every other person, AS LONG AS I AM improving & progressing in my art.

Nothing though, helps as much as demonstration - I have noticed that when my Sensei demonstrates, everyone has an "ah-ha!" moment. Even after he demonstrates, they have the tendency to use some strength in their techniques, & then the technique FAILS; why? Because they've approached it using the wrong energy.

In my opinion, NINJUTSU cannot be put into words. The logic of it, YES. The spiritual side? To an EXTENT, but NEVER 100%.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

chapter 9

Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia

The Elements

It's actually a


Funny that it originated from Steven K. Hayes, when it is taught by Shoto Tanemura in his Genbukan community as well.

They use the same principles. My friend from the States uses the same principles & he's a Genbukan student.

The elements help you to understand which type of energy to apply, although it cannot really be put into words. The energies are far too advanced to be able to describe it.

I will have a talk with my Sensei to enlighten myself more.

Thank you for the input.

I wonder if your Genbukan friend studies under an instructor who started out under Steve Hayes's organization before switching to the Genbukan. I've never heard of the godai theory being part of the Genbukan curriculum. If @Yamabushii is still hanging around the forums, perhaps he can fill us in.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

"Your Sensei." You need to understand that you're speaking with a bunch of people who are already Sensei, including Chris, Hyoho, Tony, Tez, and, well, a bunch more.

It's a little bit like a Jr. High student arguing with the entire faculty of a University.

In fairness, we're not her sensei, no matter how much experience we have.

 

[Tarrycat]

No they weren't. Some were "designed" for sport. Some for recreation. Some for exercise and health. Some for Esprit de Corps. Alfred Hutton's "Great Stick" method of fighting with a ~5' staff is an example of this. I can point to at least 3 methods of "Quarterstaff" which were specifically designed for either sport or exercise.

I didn't even know those existed... ... But okay. I'm always willing to learn more. I'm young!

 

[lklawson]

In fairness, we're not her sensei, no matter how much experience we have.

I agree. My point being that just because the concept is being taught to her by her Sensei as important elements of Kata doesn't mean that it expands to Kata of any other Martial Art as she had assumed and argued for. The fact that many other Sensei in this thread specifically reported that her training is not representative of other martial expressions of kata is prima facie. I can understand her initial belief but can't condone continued argument in the face of contradictory evidence.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Xue Sheng]

It is a political statement. In U.S. at the moment, "Drumpf" is a common derisive term for President Donald Trump, who is often described by those who dislike, disagree with, or oppose him politically, as a Nazi, hence "Fuhrer"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yes I know. Actually Drumpf was Trump's original family name. However it was changed to Trump before he came along

Trump's Family Surname Was Once 'Drumpf'

 

[Tarrycat]

In fairness, we're not her sensei, no matter how much experience we have.

I like your mindset, you seem like a humble person, which I like. You're right, nobody here is my teacher in person. But I can ALWAYS do with VIRTUAL Sensei's.

Please don't get offended at my opinions, or my views. I do NOT know everything. NOBODY will EVER know everything, life is simply too short.

I'll appreciate it if you could bring in your friend who has trained under Tanemura, because I'd like to keep in contact with him whenever I have any questions or when I want some advice. I AM a beginner, so I have a lot to wrap my grey matter around.

If he trained DIRECTLY under Tanemura, that would be EVEN BETTER. I would then consider myself damn lucky.

Thank you.

 

[ShortBridge]

That ain't work'n. That's the way you do it. Get your money for noth'n and your chicks for free. Maybe get a blister on your little finger. Maybe get a blister on your thumb.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Compelling argument. Can't argue.

 

[lklawson]

Yes I know. Actually Drumpf was Trump's original family name. However it was changed to Trump before he came along

Trump's Family Surname Was Once 'Drumpf'

<nods>

Just one more thing about this user which makes my "Moderator Sense" tingle.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Tarrycat]

"Your Sensei." You need to understand that you're speaking with a bunch of people who are already Sensei, including Chris, Hyoho, Tony, Tez, and, well, a bunch more.

It's a little bit like a Jr. High student arguing with the entire faculty of a University.

Don't get offended so easily. It'll speed up the aging process. You don't want that to happen now, do you?

I have great respect for my Teacher. That is why I will always refer to him as my Teacher. I refer to him as that out of respect, not to upset people. It's just how I was raised, old sport.

 

[ShortBridge]

...Again martial arts is no different, one trains for deep understanding and skill, not for 'oh that'll do'.

Well...I think we're in the age of "that'll do". Even more so whereas as the fairly instant gratification of getting involved in or even watching combat sports has convinced a generation of people that they know best. Sad that they are so sure of themselves that they seem compelled to dismiss the perspectives of people who have spent decades dedicated to a different path, but this is current cultural phenomena not limited to martial arts. Tez, I know that we've even had people lecture LEO and others on this forum about "reality". Their sense of reality, of course being watching sparring on YouTube. "that'll do".

I like your mindset, you seem like a humble person, which I like. You're right, nobody here is my teacher in person. But I can ALWAYS do with VIRTUAL Sensei's.

Please don't get offended at my opinions, or my views. I do NOT know everything. NOBODY will EVER know everything, life is simply too short.

I'll appreciate it if you could bring in your friend who has trained under Tanemura, because I'd like to keep in contact with him whenever I have any questions or when I want some advice. I AM a beginner, so I have a lot to wrap my grey matter around.

If he trained DIRECTLY under Tanemura, that would be EVEN BETTER. I would then consider myself damn lucky.

Thank you.

With all do respect here. I think you're trying to salvage an overplayed hand and I think you're handling it well, but the real lesson here is (picking on you, but certainly you're not the first or the worst) that when you make declarative statements of fact on the internet, occasionally people who are in fact experts on the topic you suggested understanding of come along and call you out on it. I applaud your response and recovery, but it appears you got caught out on a limb here. I don't study this system, so I can only follow the dialogue and wouldn't have known one way or another on the subject you have been debating otherwise.

There's a direct parallel to the OPs declarative statement that he knows better than the long time students and teachers here and elsewhere and essentially holding his (implied) quick and early success in this field with people who have been pursuing mastery.

This issue, at heart, defines this and other forums on martial arts. The frustrating thing is that the classicalists seem to be more or less fine with people going to straight to combat sports and being satisfied with their choices. But that respect doesn't seem to extend the other way. There was a recent thread that I eventually unsubscribed from and blocked the OP over where he started it by saying that it was his mission and duty to expose everyone in the world as frauds who did anything other than UFC style training. That pretty much sums it up.

 

[hoshin1600]

However, when my Sensei describes it to me like that, MY brain can understand it better, mysticism or not. I don't think like everyone else does; so when I AM able to fully grasp it in such a way, that's all that matters to me. It doesn't matter to me what YOU think or the next person. In fact, how I learn & how I am taught, will NOT be the same for every other person, AS LONG AS I AM improving & progressing in my art.

to be clear i am not against the way your teacher is explaining things. what i am trying to point out is that you are posting on a public forum and to express certain concepts in a "mystic" way will be misunderstood and be dismissed by your readers.

 

[Tez3]

It is a political statement. In U.S. at the moment, "Drumpf" is a common derisive term for President Donald Trump, who is often described by those who dislike, disagree with, or oppose him politically, as a Nazi, hence "Fuhrer"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I wondered about that as soon as I saw it but thought it was best to leave an American to bring it up.

In my opinion, NINJUTSU cannot be put into words.

Actually Chris Parker explains it extremely well. I knew little about Ninjutsu but I have learnt a lot of him. He's extremely knowledgeable and articulate.

Don't get offended so easily. It'll speed up the aging process

No one is offended in the least, you shouldn't read into words something that's not there. We tend to be plain speaking around here.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Tarrycat, i believe you find the romantic language appealing but it is really not helpful. you say that you cannot explain it any other way. perhaps that is because you are still a relative beginner and do not really understand the concepts. if someone really understands then they should be able to use common language that the layperson can understand. if the concept is fully dependent on mystic, criptic words then maybe they only exist in the mystic realm. when i say "Iwo no mi" no one understands what i am saying. its not even current Japanese language. one of the tell tale signs of false arguments is when people make up their own words, it allows them to put any meaning they like on it and twist and turn it at will and tell others "well you just cant understand"

while romantic phrases are appealing in martial arts they are often a translation of Japanese , which lends itself to misunderstandings and inaccurate translations.

You ARE right in saying that once you make up words, it can entirely miss the purpose of the technique, or be a bit misleading - in some cases, yes. However, when my Sensei describes it to me like that, MY brain can understand it better, mysticism or not. I don't think like everyone else does; so when I AM able to fully grasp it in such a way, that's all that matters to me.

There's nothing wrong with using metaphors to help explain concepts to students. I do it all the time. Doesn't matter whether they're romantic, mundane, or downright silly. As long as they help guide the student to the necessary "ah hah" moment, they serve their purpose.

Where I agree with hoshin is that the better you understand a concept, the more you can explain it in simple, everyday terms, without resorting to esoteric terminology. As a teacher I strive to not only be able to explain things simply, but to be able to explain things in different ways because not everybody learns the same way or has the same background.

My Sensei has been doing Ninjutsu for 30 years now & he can't even fully explain the energies. He can describe it the way you have, but that's about it. When he DEMONSTRATES it, THEN only are the students able to fully grasp it - whether they are advanced or not.

Nothing though, helps as much as demonstration - I have noticed that when my Sensei demonstrates, everyone has an "ah-ha!" moment. Even after he demonstrates, they have the tendency to use some strength in their techniques, & then the technique FAILS; why? Because they've approached it using the wrong energy.

Yeah, there's a difference between understanding something intellectually (which verbal explanations can help with) and understanding it physically. Understanding something physically requires physical experience, regardless of the art. Intellectual understanding can help you make sense of that physical experience, but it's not a substitute for it.