Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.

[DaveB]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an excellent fighter in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

I used to feel the same, but not that it was a waste of time, more that the training is inefficient to the goal of fighting.

I realised that most traditionalists aren't training to fight, they are training to do "x" art. Also most TMA contain much more than one needs to kickbox and many have a different focus to ring fighting.

Basically there is a lot of nuance to be considered when comparing any aspect of different martial arts, not least of all is would those people training TMA still be training if it was rejigged towards ring fighting?

 

[DaveB]

No, not really. Improving language skills serves a practical purpose. Improving complex kata only makes you good at doing complex kata.

surely that depends on what you do with your improved kata?

 

[JR 137]

Yes, it has to do with breathing.

"...the mysticism of elements..." - sorry bud, I train in a completely different discipline than you do. It may sound "mystic" to you, but that's just the way these techniques were created. It's more than just breathing, you're creating a specific energy with it - be it flowing, forceful, light, or heavy - and it DOES take years to perfect it - it's not THAT simple.

I see MANY Krav Maga & boxing students struggling to shift into those different states when they join a Ninjutsu class. Why? Because they only make use of explosive energy. I'm not bashing ANY discipline here, I'm simply stating FACTS. I love boxing & Krav Maga; I also know some of the best in the fields.

It REALLY is that deep. I don't see why the founders of this discipline would write an endless amount of scrolls for nothing.

If you haven't trained in my discipline, fine, but don't mock it. Experience it before passing judgment, please.

I wasn't mocking, I was just stating opinion. Sorry if I came off that way.

I fully agree that training your body to do exactly what you want takes years to do, and truthfully it takes a lifetime and one will never 100% reach that goal.

But I don't think controlling your body/mind/movements has anything to do with "elements." It has everything to do with neural pathways and ATP production and conversion (what the human body uses for energy).

The body's energy comes from the energy released when a molecule of phosphate is broken off a molecule of ATP. In other words, adenosine tri-phosphate is converted into adenosine-di-phosphate. The energy your body uses is as a result of this chemical reaction. No matter which way one perceives their energy comes from, the ATP to ADP process is where it comes from. That is scientific fact that's been researched and tested by people significantly smarter than I.

 

[Tarrycat]

No, they're not.

Stephen Hayes put that idea across in the 80's, and his Toshindo organisation continues with it, but it is not part of anything found in the actual arts in Japan or elsewhere (other than Hayes' interpretation).

chapter 9

Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia

The Elements

It's actually a very well-known concept the Japanese use & apply to their techniques.

We use it in all of our kata.

Some kata require you to be more stabilised, & rooted (earth), while others require you to move around freely (wind - like Aikido).

 

[jobo]

I wasn't mocking, I was just stating opinion. Sorry if I came off that way.

I fully agree that training your body to do exactly what you want takes years to do, and truthfully it takes a lifetime and one will never 100% reach that goal.

But I don't think controlling your body/mind/movements has anything to do with "elements." It has everything to do with neural pathways and ATP production and conversion (what the human body uses for energy).

The body's energy comes from the energy released when a molecule of phosphate is broken off a molecule of ATP. In other words, adenosine tri-phosphate is converted into adenosine-di-phosphate. The energy your body uses is as a result of this chemical reaction. No matter which way one perceives their energy comes from, the ATP to ADP process is where it comes from. That is scientific fact that's been researched and tested by people significantly smarter than I.

the thing is, the elements reasonably describe different nural skills abilities, them seem a reasonable,way of visualising, the using of different fibres, pathways.movement patterns

i keep getting told I'm all fire, I'm straight at the opponent, with max force, that my default position,developing my CNS, to be more wind or water in my movements would quite possibly be to my betterments? And I'm working on more fluidity and power through movement

 

[Chris Parker]

Sorry, just went back to re-read... most of this thread is just, well... silly, if I'm to be honest.... on a few fronts... but thought I might address this in a bit more detail.

I can only speak for myself & the knowledge I've gained over the years of training Martial Arts.

Hi Tarrycat, good to meet you.

Would you mind listing what the years of training you have are? You mentioned in your introduction thread a year and a half of ninjutsu training... and, if I'm correct in my supposition of your photos for "Bojutsu", you appear quite young... would that be correct? Please note this is not an attack, just trying to get a gauge on where you're coming from in this regard.

Someone here said that in boxing, Krav Maga, etc; there aren't that much techniques for you to learn, which I agree with.

Hmm... Boxing is certainly a fair bit more restricted in that there are (essentially) four punches, done with each hand (to make 8), with a few specialist punches, and an array of covering, jamming, and evasive movements... but it is referred to as the "sweet science" for very good reason. Krav can be taught a number of ways, and can be more or less complex (depending on the lineage)... but there can be quite an array of technical methods taught there.

I have boxed, I have observed attentively the techniques of Krav Maga & what all these sports or fighting techniques have in common is this: lack of variety in different fields of energy.

What I mean by that, is all of those techniques mostly require force & strength. They are explosive; which doesn't really require the same skills as Martial Arts does.

Personally, I don't see either as being focused on force and strength... boxing in particular can be quite technical... and subtle. Krav is based largely on overwhelming an aggressive force, but again doesn't necessarily rely on needing to overpower them... so I don't think I'd agree with that at all. Especially not with the idea that they don't require the same skills as martial arts (whatever skills you feel "martial arts" require... as "martial arts" is such a broad category, I don't think there can be any single set of skills required there at all... part of my problem with Kung Fu Wang's posts, for the record).

I have found that it is MUCH easier for me to revert to an explosive technique built upon strength, than to transform all of my energy into kata that requires me to move like the wind, the earth, fire, & water.

Okay... this may be the language of your dojo, but it is far from universal... even the few dojo who do follow Hayes' don't express in terms of "transform all of my energy"...

Most Martial Arts kata requires you to move based on the different elements (mentioned above).

Er... no. No, they don't.

And, as I asked for your background, I'll give mine. My training goes back a bit over 30 years, and includes Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate-do and Rhee Tae-kwon Do when I was younger, the last quarter of a century with Ninjutsu (my organisation was the first authentic school in Australia, dating from 1981, these days we are independent). I also train in two Koryu arts (Classical Japanese systems), Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu and Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu. Along the way, I have trained in Seitei Jodo, Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido, Gracie BJJ, boxing, and have cross-trained in Aikido (Aiki-Kai and Iwama/Takemusu), Wing Chun, Hontai Yoshin Ryu, Judo, Krav Maga, RBSD systems (a number of systems, including Deane Lawlers R-Sult, Richard Dmitri's Senshido, and more), and have spent much of the last 3 decades plus researching and learning as much as I can about martial arts from around the world, focused particularly on Japanese arts, giving me insight into a fair bit more than the list here. That's the background I bring to this discussion.

It requires you to shift ALL of your energy into a specific element; & actually perfecting a technique like that is what takes so much time. Why? Because we don't live in those different states of energy on a daily basis. From the day you were born, you've only grown accustomed to ONE state of energy, & to now transform that energy you've lived with your entire life into other states of energy; THAT is where the struggle, the time, & the effort comes into play.

So, as said above, my background is very much the arts you're training in now... and none of this matches the way they are taught.

If I had to compare myself to my Sensei, there would be NO comparison. He can tranform his void energy into any other element, & one would not notice the shift in his energy, only in his kata. Why? Because he's been doing it for YEARS. THIS is where the "mastery" concept comes into play.

I'm glad you think highly of him, but again, this is not the way any of this is taught or described.

Martial Arts is all about energy, & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body & tuning into those vibrations.

This is similar to what Hayes was saying years ago, although somewhat muddled up.

This is why beginners will practice kata in steps, rather than in a flowing motion. Or they will do the kata, & then pause, disrupting the energy they started with - they are not used to it. They continue to shut the element's energy off, & revert back to the energy they're used to.

Er... no... the reason beginners practice the kata in steps is because they don't have the skills yet... nothing to do with the "energies shifting" or similar...

I don't know if all Martial Arts divisions requires you to shift into the different elements, but Ninjutsu does.

No, it doesn't.

It's the only way I can put it into words for you.

Okay.

chapter 9

Yeah, don't take this the wrong way, but that entire thing is garbage. Basically, he's taken Hayes' early books (including all the mistakes), and repeated them... in some cases confounding them with others, and having no idea just how bad what he's putting across is.

Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia

The idea of the Godai in Japanese culture isn't in question (for the record, that's not really the way that they're used in the Gorin no Sho, but that's another discussion...), the question is the application of them to the "energies in kata"... which is not a common application, nor an accurate one. And this article has no reference to it, nor relevance.

The Elements

Ah, the Kashiwa guys... haven't seen them for a bit... they do tend to cater to the fantasies more than the way things are taught in Japan, and have been called out on that a number of times. Incidentally, they actually teach not too far from Don Roley... who is one of the better sources on this idea, having lived in Japan for 15 years, training with Hatsumi sensei, and mostly as a personal student of the late Oguri sensei.

Speaking of.... Rantings and Ravings

It's actually a very well-known concept the Japanese use & apply to their techniques.

No, they don't. Believe me... they don't. If you go to Japan and ask whether, say, Koku is a "fire" technique, or a "water" one, you'll just get a puzzled look and a polite smile...

We use it in all of our kata.

Okay, but that's your dojo. It is not the norm, nor is it something "in all martial art kata".

Some kata require you to be more stabilised, & rooted (earth), while others require you to move around freely (wind - like Aikido).

I am familiar with each and every kata of each and every school of the Bujinkan that is commonly taught, and no, that is simply incorrect.

 

[JR 137]

the thing is, the elements reasonably describe different nural skills abilities, them seem a reasonable,way of visualising, the using of different fibres, pathways.movement patterns

i keep getting told I'm all fire, I'm straight at the opponent, with max force, that my default position,developing my CNS, to be more wind or water in my movements would quite possibly be to my betterments? And I'm working on more fluidity and power through movement

I agree. They're great ways to describe it. But at the end of the day, the "elements" are nothing more than a metaphor. A very good and easily understood metaphor, but a metaphor nonetheless.

 

[jobo]

I agree. They're great ways to describe it. But at the end of the day, the "elements" are nothing more than a metaphor. A very good and easily understood metaphor, but a metaphor nonetheless.

well yea, if you want to understand the science, like you and i do, its a fairy story that sort of explains it,
if on the other hand you are just interested in simple cause and effect. Do this and that happens, it makes no difference to how well you develop.

you don't need to know why veg is good for you, just that it is, if you eat it coz your mother told you the Easter bunny, said you should, you still get the same benifit

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I don't know if all Martial Arts divisions requires you to shift into the different elements, but Ninjutsu does.

It may sound "mystic" to you, but that's just the way these techniques were created. It's more than just breathing, you're creating a specific energy with it - be it flowing, forceful, light, or heavy - and it DOES take years to perfect it - it's not THAT simple.

Kata is divided into the elements of:

- Fire
- Water
- Earth
- Wind
- Void

It's actually a very well-known concept the Japanese use & apply to their techniques.

Everything Chris says in his posts above is correct, but I thought I'd add a little more information regarding the "godai" in ninjutsu.

When Stephen Hayes first started teaching "ninjutsu" (The Bujinkan arts) in the United States, he had a relatively limited amount of training time with his teachers in Japan. What he did have was a flair for self-promotion and a knack for coming up with creative ways to explain concepts.

One thing he came up with was to combine the idea of the "godai" (5 element theory in Japanese mysticism) with a concept he had picked up from one of his teachers (that the body's movements will be more effective when they are in sync with the emotions of the person moving). He designed his own kata - the "Godai no kata" - to illustrate this concept. His idea was that if you entered a fight feeling tentative and unsure and then tried to execute techniques requiring aggressive commitment, then you would likely hesitate at the wrong moment. Likewise if you entered a fight feeling aggressive and tried to execute techniques based on patiently waiting and counterattacking, then you would be likely to jump the gun, and so on. The best thing to do, in this theory, would be to have an arsenal of movements which matched whatever emotional state you might be in and be able to recognize the appropriate mode to operate in at the right moment.

BTW - the focus was not so much on being able to transform your own energy as on being able to recognize what your energy naturally was and what movements would fit that energy. If you could just go into "fire mode" any time you wanted, then there would be no need for "water movements."

If Hayes had stated up front that this was his own formulation, then this wouldn't have been a problem. He might rightly be seen as an innovator. I've seen variations of this idea from other sources, but not laid out quite the same way.

What he did was publish a bunch of books where he laid this godai theory out as a fundamental idea in ninjutsu. At the time, very few westerners had trained with Hatsumi and his shihans in Japan and there were very few sources of information on the Bujinkan arts in English. Therefore a lot of people who started training or became interested in the art in the 80s had just his books to go on. By the time more people had made the trip to train in Japan, the idea was widespread in the U.S. and probably other western countries as well.

In 1986, Hatsumi came to the U.S. for a Tai Kai in San Francisco. After a day of training, he took questions in the evening. At the time, I was a relatively new student of the art (I had been training for a couple of years). I figured the most productive thing I could ask about was the most fundamental part of the art. I raised my hand.
"Can you talk a bit about the significance of the Godai?"
The translator looked perplexed.
"The what?"
At this point Jack Hoban jumped up from his seat near Hatsumi and the shihans to explain to them:
"Oh that's something we came up with over here to ..."
Steve Hayes waved Jack back down and shushed him.
There followed a brief discussion in Japanese, after which the official answer came:
"Don't worry about it. Just train."

Since then, high ranked instructors who have trained in Japan have made it clear that the Godai is not part of the Bujinkan curriculum or theory, but due to the number of instructors in the West who started out learning from Steve's books, or from Steve or from his students, the idea is still being taught.

 

[Tarrycat]

No, they're not.

Stephen Hayes put that idea across in the 80's, and his Toshindo organisation continues with it, but it is not part of anything found in the actual arts in Japan or elsewhere (other than Hayes' interpretation).

chapter 9

Five elements (Japanese philosophy) - Wikipedia

The Elements

It's actually a

Everything Chris says in his posts above is correct, but I thought I'd add a little more information regarding the "godai" in ninjutsu.

When Stephen Hayes first started teaching "ninjutsu" (The Bujinkan arts) in the United States, he had a relatively limited amount of training time with his teachers in Japan. What he did have was a flair for self-promotion and a knack for coming up with creative ways to explain concepts.

One thing he came up with was to combine the idea of the "godai" (5 element theory in Japanese mysticism) with a concept he had picked up from one of his teachers (that the body's movements will be more effective when they are in sync with the emotions of the person moving). He designed his own kata - the "Godai no kata" - to illustrate this concept. His idea was that if you entered a fight feeling tentative and unsure and then tried to execute techniques requiring aggressive commitment, then you would likely hesitate at the wrong moment. Likewise if you entered a fight feeling aggressive and tried to execute techniques based on patiently waiting and counterattacking, then you would be likely to jump the gun, and so on. The best thing to do, in this theory, would be to have an arsenal of movements which matched whatever emotional state you might be in and be able to recognize the appropriate mode to operate in at the right moment.

BTW - the focus was not so much on being able to transform your own energy as on being able to recognize what your energy naturally was and what movements would fit that energy. If you could just go into "fire mode" any time you wanted, then there would be no need for "water movements."

If Hayes had stated up front that this was his own formulation, then this wouldn't have been a problem. He might rightly be seen as an innovator. I've seen variations of this idea from other sources, but not laid out quite the same way.

What he did was publish a bunch of books where he laid this godai theory out as a fundamental idea in ninjutsu. At the time, very few westerners had trained with Hatsumi and his shihans in Japan and there were very few sources of information on the Bujinkan arts in English. Therefore a lot of people who started training or became interested in the art in the 80s had just his books to go on. By the time more people had made the trip to train in Japan, the idea was widespread in the U.S. and probably other western countries as well.

In 1986, Hatsumi came to the U.S. for a Tai Kai in San Francisco. After a day of training, he took questions in the evening. At the time, I was a relatively new student of the art (I had been training for a couple of years). I figured the most productive thing I could ask about was the most fundamental part of the art. I raised my hand.
"Can you talk a bit about the significance of the Godai?"
The translator looked perplexed.
"The what?"
At this point Jack Hoban jumped up from his seat near Hatsumi and the shihans to explain to them:
"Oh that's something we came up with over here to ..."
Steve Hayes waved Jack back down and shushed him.
There followed a brief discussion in Japanese, after which the official answer came:
"Don't worry about it. Just train."

Since then, high ranked instructors who have trained in Japan have made it clear that the Godai is not part of the Bujinkan curriculum or theory, but due to the number of instructors in the West who started out learning from Steve's books, or from Steve or from his students, the idea is still being taught.

Funny that it originated from Steven K. Hayes, when it is taught by Shoto Tanemura in his Genbukan community as well.

They use the same principles. My friend from the States uses the same principles & he's a Genbukan student.

The elements help you to understand which type of energy to apply, although it cannot really be put into words. The energies are far too advanced to be able to describe it.

I will have a talk with my Sensei to enlighten myself more.

Thank you for the input.

 

[Tarrycat]

I agree. They're great ways to describe it. But at the end of the day, the "elements" are nothing more than a metaphor. A very good and easily understood metaphor, but a metaphor nonetheless.

Yes! It IS a metaphor to describe the different energies. That's what I've been TRYING to say all the time. It's extremely difficult to explain those energies in words. You just can't. I didn't want to make it seem mystical, it's just a simplified way to understand it.

 

[Hyoho]

Yes! It IS a metaphor to describe the different energies. That's what I've been TRYING to say all the time. It's extremely difficult to explain those energies in words. You just can't. I didn't want to make it seem mystical, it's just a simplified way to understand it.

The founder of Yagu Ryu likened the power of his school to an unstoppable boulder rolling down a mountain. Musashi said his power was that of water, be it a single drop or a waterfall.

 

[Tarrycat]

The founder of Yagu Ryu likened the power of his school to an unstoppable boulder rolling down a mountain. Musashi said his power was that of water, be it a single drop or a waterfall.

My Sensei also describes the energies giving such examples. That's the only way to bring the message across clearly... I'm glad you can relate. :')

 

[hoshin1600]

Iwo no mi....Miyamoto Niten

Marobashi no michi.....Yagyu sekishusai




There im sure everyone understand now.

 

[Tarrycat]

Iwo no mi....Miyamoto Niten

Marobashi no michi.....Yagyu sekishusai




There im sure everyone understand now.

If I had to describe the energy I'm feeling right now, I'd say that it feels like mountains have been

Iwo no mi....Miyamoto Niten

Marobashi no michi.....Yagyu sekishusai




There im sure everyone understand now.

How I feel after the conclusion of this concept: ...

 

[hoshin1600]

My Sensei also describes the energies giving such examples. That's the only way to bring the message across clearly... I'm glad you can relate. :')

Tarrycat, i believe you find the romantic language appealing but it is really not helpful. you say that you cannot explain it any other way. perhaps that is because you are still a relative beginner and do not really understand the concepts. if someone really understands then they should be able to use common language that the layperson can understand. if the concept is fully dependent on mystic, criptic words then maybe they only exist in the mystic realm. when i say "Iwo no mi" no one understands what i am saying. its not even current Japanese language. one of the tell tale signs of false arguments is when people make up their own words, it allows them to put any meaning they like on it and twist and turn it at will and tell others "well you just cant understand"

while romantic phrases are appealing in martial arts they are often a translation of Japanese , which lends itself to misunderstandings and inaccurate translations.

 

[lklawson]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts-

[...]

Comments?

Horse-crap.

The early Tudor era ranking system for English Martial Arts through the Company of Maisters required SEVEN (7) YEARS between tests. Start off as a "Scholar" and train for 7 years before you could be considered for testing at Free Scholar.

Masters of Defense of London
Company of Masters - Wikipedia

 

[Tez3]

Horse-crap.

The early Tudor era ranking system for English Martial Arts through the Company of Maisters required SEVEN (7) YEARS between tests. Start off as a "Scholar" and train for 7 years before you could be considered for testing at Free Scholar.

Masters of Defense of London
Company of Masters - Wikipedia

Nearly every activity and trade had a Guild or Company then, these dated back centuries before the Tudor era. Many Guilds and Companies are still going strong now. Training for trades was considered a serious business and took years even though much of the technology was basic one still had to learn it thoroughly. Martial arts would have been no different, people didn't rush through training so they became craftsmen, with a deep knowledge and experience of their trade. This is why the cathedrals and other buildings they put up are still standing now for example, much of what they made in ceramics, silver, wood etc is still around today as well. Again martial arts is no different, one trains for deep understanding and skill, not for 'oh that'll do'.

 

[lklawson]

Wasn't there those monks who could remember everything?

Oral traditions are pretty common. I don't think pictures were as effective.

In cultures with limited access to scarce and expensive writing materials, mnemonic techniques were extremely advanced. The concept of a "Memory Palace" dates back to ancient Greece.

In medieval Europe, it was common for Christian Monks and religious leaders to memorize whole books of the Bible, sometimes even the whole Bible, if we're to believe what was recorded.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

You can buy a guitar in a pawn shop and join a garage band. You might even become rich and famous.

That ain't work'n. That's the way you do it. Get your money for noth'n and your chicks for free. Maybe get a blister on your little finger. Maybe get a blister on your thumb.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk