Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.

[TMA17]

This whole "years to master" philosphy is pretty unique to East Asian martial arts--and even then there are exceptions, like muay thai, where a guy can become an excellent fighter in a relatively short amount of time.

When I see a kickboxer or a krav maga guy who's spent a measely year in training hold his own against a karateka who's spent two decades on kata and kibadachi stance or whatever, I feel bad for the karateka. I get it that some people want the "authentic" tradition (or what they think is authentic tradition), but it seems like a waste of time to me.

Comments?

PS

I have some years of experience in Shotokan, so I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance. I feel that life is so much more than "mastering fighting" or becoming the mythical "master martial artist."

Depends on the individual. Style/art is secondary. Some people are just not as naturally athletic and therefore it won't matter how long they train in any art. They would still likely lose to more athletic individual with little to no training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For some MA "ability" development, there is no short cut.

One day I was very proud to tell my teacher that I had spent 3 years in "head lock" training. My teacher then said that he had spent 10 years in that training. I kept my mouth shut after that.

 

[Martial D]

After re-reading this, it occured to me its the question that's lacking.

"How long should it take to learn a martial art"

This begs the question, when have you learned it? Learned is a past tense word, implying completion. I haven't learned, I'm learning, always learning.

So I guess my answer is, a lifetime, or until you shut your mind. Whatever comes first.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But as we've seen it's not in your art is it. It's in what you study but as we've been told it's not in the art itself.

I'm still reading through it, so this may have been addressed, but I would disagree with it. If she studies a specific art (in this case ninjutsu), and in her study they learn something specific, that something is now in her art. It may not be a core tenet of that art, so another school/dojo may not focus on it or teach it, but simply by her learning it as part of the art, it becomes part of that art.

That's also where a split could come into play though...if I teach the five animals in shaolin kempo, and someone comes along in another dojo, and teaches a sixth animal (which would be a core tenet), I wouldn't consider that part of my art. But they may consider it part of theirs, and to me that would mean we practice two separate arts, even if they share the same name.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I do. I also think that you're better than a lot of people. I think that Tarrycat is probably "better than" a lot of people. I think that most of the posters here on MT are "better" than a lot of people.

Did I tell you about when I got a Jury Summons for a case of a guy accused of raping a mentally handicapped girl? Yeah, I DEFINITELY think you, and probably everyone else here, is "better" than that! It might be a low bar, so to speak, but it is "better."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Was he convicted? If he didn't do it and was just accused, I wouldn't necessarily know if any of us are better than him.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Tensing up is bad in boxing too, unless you just happen to like telegraphing to your sparring partner.

Tensing in lifting is bad too. Off hand, the only exercise I can think of in which "tensing up" is not a bad thing would be Charles Atlas' "Dynamic Tension" system and its derivatives. Pretty much everything else, it becomes a hindrance.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Even with dynamic tension, it's not that type of tensing. It's a very purposeful thing, where you are keeping your body at an extreme, not tensing up without control over it.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Kata is good for everybody its an excercise thats we used agains imaginary opponent

But the thing is if you wana fight you can fight right away but if you wana fight the professional way it would take years and months to perfect it

 

[Tarrycat]

Lol! "Terry" sounds like a dude's name...

Thank you for the reply.

The only reason we use the Godai, is because when we do kata, let's say I do a kata that is flowing (usually in hira - a stance where my arms are open to the sides & my feet further apart - you usually turn very lightly with the momentum of it); we would then associate that with "wind" - just so that we know in our minds that it's a light movement.

Yes, I agree, it is the spiritual side of Ninjutsu. I will post videos of all of the kata for you guys, so that you can understand it better, if you want.

Perhaps we do follow some of Hayes' principles, I really don't know. I will ask my teacher about it tomorrow, & then let everyone know.

I do know that we're an organisation on our own, but I think we still train under the Bujinkan & its curriculum. Why we're a separate organisation, is because my teacher wanted to avoid politics - he said the belt system in his previous school was very easily obtainable, people who shouldn't have graded, did.

At the same time he likes Tanemura, because he says that Tanemura was willing to spread the art, which keeps the art contained. Hatsumi, on the other hand, didn't want foreigners to know about the art. I'm not sure how they go about it today though, as I see Hatsumi training with foreigners. Perhaps he's become a bit more open to the idea...

I appreciate everyone's efforts. Thanks a million! x

 

[Tarrycat]

Even with dynamic tension, it's not that type of tensing. It's a very purposeful thing, where you are keeping your body at an extreme, not tensing up without control over it.

Ohhhh, I see. That's quite interesting.

May I ask which type of kata you do with dynamic tensing & why you tense up (given that it's controlled)?

 

[Tarrycat]

For the record, I just want to state that I am not implying Ninpo-ka are like Captain Planet. I went back and read some earlier posts. You cannot summon energy like some mystical haduken. It's something you can feel and use to change your understanding of people and situations, or even help you meditate, but it's not a super power.

Yes, we don't view it as some kind of a super power. It's the spiritual aspect of it.

If you read on, I said that we will associate the godai with the kata, to give us an idea or just to help us implement the kata (if you read what I said about the hira no kamae).

There is no magic related to it. It just helps with understanding the kata better.

 

[Tarrycat]

By "standard curriculum", are you referring to our base curriculum for non-black belt ranks? By Genbukan standards, that would be the base curriculum. Once you achieve shodan/black belt in Ninpo, it's similar to graduating high school. You're then off to university and you select a major. In the Genbukan, this can be continuing to grade up in Ninpo, or begin formally ranking up in Jujutsu, Koryu Karate, Chugoku Kenpo, Bikenjutsu, Bojutsu, Naginatajutsu, or any ryu ha such as Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu, Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Gikan Ryu, etc. So ultimately, there is really only one "standard curriculum" which is your white belt (10th kyu) to 3rd stripe brown belt (1st kyu). Under that context, the kata you learn from 10th-1st kyu require no such thing.

Beyond 1st kyu (e.g. shodan and up), that may change. While I am unaware of any formal requirement (except possibly in Amatsu Tatara) to associate elemental energy with kata, I do know that there is kuden (verbal transmission) associated with many kata. So while I would avoid saying it's a requirement, I would also say that by understanding the elements and being able to attribute them to kata, they can improve your techniques.

Example: You are doing a technique called "suisha". This means "water wheel". The root element in this technique is water. Your opponent attacks you and you receive that energy then redirect it back, ultimately throwing them backwards in a manner where you almost end up looking like a water wheel. Or maybe you are assuming a kamae (a.k.a. posture) which is very strong and defensive; this would be a kamae describing the earth. Wind can be attributed to quickness and evasiveness while fire can be attributed to directness and aggression (for the lack of a better word). Ultimately, the 5th being "void" (or "heaven") is being able to culminate all 4 together.

From a more non-physical perspective - if someone is angry with you (fire), you should avoid displaying anger back toward them because, well, obviously you can't fight fire with fire. It would be better to remain calm and redirect their energy into something more positive. This would be assuming the role of water.

Granted, the far majority of classes in Genbukan Ninpo won't entail any discussions such as these. What I explained is a VERY rough and high level overview. There are very, very deep spiritual meanings behind this stuff and isn't taught to most people. Even then, that information probably wouldn't be shared with the public.

Apologies for the long winded answer. Wanted to try my best to answer based on my current knowledge.

YES YES YES!!! Exactly! THANK YOU! You just explained it better than I did. That's what I've been meaning to say ALL ALONG. . It's sometimes difficult for people to understand these concepts, it's not magic, it's just the feeling of it.

 

[Tarrycat]

That does sort of answer the question. If you read TerryCat's original comment that we were responding to, she talks about each kata requiring a certain sort of elemental energy (water, fire, earth, air, void). It doesn't sound like that is part of your standard curriculum.

I replied to you, but it seems like your "quote" went missing once I posted it.

It's the long comment without a quote.

 

[Tez3]

Lol! "Terry" sounds like a dude's name...

Terry is also short for Theresa.

May I ask which type of kata you do with dynamic tensing & why you tense up (given that it's controlled)?

I replied to you, but it seems like your "quote" went missing once I posted it.

The site is doing some odd things recently.

 

[Tarrycat]

OHHH! I've seen this before, I just didn't exactly know what it was. He's very good at controlling the tension. Does it take a while to perfect it? Is it difficult?

 

[Tarrycat]

Terry is also short for Theresa.

The site is doing some odd things recently.

Those karate girls are in perfect synchronization! It's so beautiful! I love the kata!

 

[Tez3]

Those karate girls are in perfect synchronization! It's so beautiful! I love the kata!

I didn't see any girls? Just Suzuki Sensei doing Seishan.

I love kata but I also love kata Bunkai, the applications of it. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 1 | Iain Abernethy

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Ohhhh, I see. That's quite interesting.

May I ask which type of kata you do with dynamic tensing & why you tense up (given that it's controlled)?

I can't see the video that Tez posted, as my work computer doesn't allow video, so it might explain the answer to this already.

I've been taught to do it for a couple of kata. However, just about any kata could use dynamic tension, and it can be used outside of kata; it's really just a way to move your muscles.

The way that it works is essentially your body is providing it's own resistance. The easiest way to experiment with it, IMO: Imagine that there is an invisible wall in front of you. The only way to move that wall is by punching it (more pushing than a punch), but the wall does not want to give. So you have to use every ounce of energy you have to push that wall away, while at the same time you are the wall that is holding you back. The other way I've heard it described is there is a giant rubber band on "x-limb". You are trying to stretch that band to it's limit, to the point where it snaps (your hand/leg/whatever is fully out).

It's purpose/why you tense up is a combination thing to me, the first is it's purpose which was muscle building. By having so much resistance coming from your own body, it forces your muscle to work harder than if you just do a kata without dynamic tension. The second purpose for me is that it's almost like meditation. I am so concentrated on my body, and working the weird tension it causes in my body, that I forget about whatever else is going on, and just lose myself in the concentration.

Hopefully that made sense. It's an odd concept to me to explain, and it's still pretty early over here.

 

[lklawson]

As they say here in broken Zulu: "EISH!"

Now I'm confused about the messages...

I'm very curious why you may disagree? Perhaps I can learn a bit more from your input. Have you tried some Ninjutsu in your art? If so, which kata did you like most & why?

I'll try to be more clear.

Once you get below the superficial differences of skin "color" every human being on the planet is pretty much the same. They all have the same design. The same bone structure, muscle structure, nervous system, circulatory system, etc. They are all damaged ("broken") in the same ways. Techniques performed to one of them will generally affect every other one more or less the same. A broken shin-bone is a broken shin-bone is a broken-shin bone. A torn ACL is a torn ACL is a torn ACL. Same with a concussion, a hyper-extended joint, a damaged muscle, or a severed artery.

We all are damaged in more-or-less the exact same way because we all have the same basic physical design.

Because we are all damaged pretty much the same way by any given "technique" then any given person ("martial artist") can use a given technique to achieve those results. It doesn't matter if the martial artist is a "Ninjutsuka," a boxer, an Aikidoka, a Collegiate Wrestler, or a Sabre fencer.

"A punch is just a punch" and "a kick is just a kick". Same with throws and joint locks.

Now, again, if you want to argue that certain specific techniques or ranges of techniques "seem to fit in" better with the strategies and tactics or training methodologies of a particular martial art, have at it. I used to believe that and, superficially anyway, there is some merit to that position. Some hypothetical person might want to defend the position that, "my hard style striking art doesn't really fit with 'soft' style circular movements and grappling." OK, sure. But the longer I've been around, the more I see people training very effectively including those concepts.

So when you write, "What works in Ninjutsu, will not necessarily (or not AT ALL) work in other Martial Arts divisions" I say horse dookie. If it works in Ninjutsu, then it "works" everywhere and, conversely, if it "works" in other martial arts then it will jolly-well work for a Ninjutsuka.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

When I answered your comment, my comment was in your quote box, nothing there now though. Very confusing indeed. the site has been a bit weird recently.

I've been seeing some odd double posts and whatnot also and quote tags gone arwry. Strange.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

most of us have strengh potential two to three times what we can commonly summon

If you don't mind the very real possibility of damaging your ligaments and joints.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk