Martial arts shouldn't take years to learn.

[lklawson]

I didn't see any girls? Just Suzuki Sensei doing Seishan.

The vid Tarrycat is referring to follows after the one you posted as a "next" or "suggested" by youtube.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jobo]

If you don't mind the very real possibility of damaging your ligaments and joints.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

ligaments and joints pack up more through lack of use, it is possible to get the body so strong that it can literally rip its self apart, but it takes years and a lot of steroids, learning to use the strengh god gave you is in the design capabilities of the body excluding silly lifts that have the mechanic tension all wrong, being able to focus your power to say push someone over isn't going to wreck anything

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think ALL of my tension is incorrect, hence it stems from stress & anxiety, which I mentioned in my other response to someone else. It's something I'm working on...slowly...

You mentioned in one of your replies, some Judo & Aikido techniques. Is that what you do? If you did comment about your art, I must have missed it somehow.

Trying to keep up with all of the comments here via mobile is a difficult job!

My primary art is Nihon Goshin Aikido, which is primarily derived from Daito-ryu Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu, with heavy influence from Judo and Shotokan Karatedo. I also have training in Karate and Judo, Ueshiba's Aikido, and a FMA/Jujutsu hybrid (which was mostly FMA, with JJ techniques slipped in where they fit seamlessly), and some miscellaneous cross-training.

 

[lklawson]

ligaments and joints pack up more through lack of use, it is possible to get the body so strong that it can literally rip its self apart, but it takes years and a lot of steroids,

And adrenaline dump ("Fight or Flight") can have the same effect. It can allow the body to engage muscle fibers which are usually in a "safety lockout-tagout." I guess that the ability to use the extra strength in a life-or-death situation is more valuable for survival than the possibility of ripping your muscle from the ligament or the ligament from the joint.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jobo]

And adrenaline dump ("Fight or Flight") can have the same effect. It can allow the body to engage muscle fibers which are usually in a "safety lockout-tagout." I guess that the ability to use the extra strength in a life-or-death situation is more valuable for survival than the possibility of ripping your muscle from the ligament or the ligament from the joint.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

yes it can increase performance but not in that way, the safety cut out your referring to is in the tendons, adrenal doesn't over ride them, nor can it instantly increase the csa of fast twitch fibres , nor improve the nural connection with the muscle fibres. It does pump the muscle full of blood and give you an improved/ instant energy source. But if you are weak, you are still weak even with flight or flight, just,a little less,weak

 

[lklawson]

But if you are weak, you are still weak even with flight or flight, just,a little less,weak

Of course. No disagreement.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Chris Parker]

This, uh... won't be short. Sorry, guys...

Funny that it originated from Steven K. Hayes, when it is taught by Shoto Tanemura in his Genbukan community as well.

Actually, no, it's not. I'll cover this more as we go... as well as a few other pertinent factors for your group, and your stated intents...

They use the same principles. My friend from the States uses the same principles & he's a Genbukan student.

There really isn't anything like the way you've described things taught in the Genbukan. Yamabushii has confirmed this (we'll get to that later), and I have also confirmed this with a number of my Genbukan and ex-Genbukan friends... including a couple of Dojo-cho's. Each said "well, I don't know what the level of experience this members friend is, but...." followed by repudiation of the idea outright. The closest I got to confirming your ideas was a method of explaining the tactical applications of the kamae to beginners. To quote one of my friends "It's not something I've ever seen, or I've heard Tanemura soke refer to at any time."

The elements help you to understand which type of energy to apply, although it cannot really be put into words. The energies are far too advanced to be able to describe it.

In the greater "ninjutsu" world, that simple idea (what type of energy to apply) simply does not exist. The only place that deals with that is Toshindo, Stephen Hayes' group... and even there, it's less about "types of energy to apply", and more simply a way to categorise (tactically) different waza and methodologies.

I will have a talk with my Sensei to enlighten myself more.

Thank you for the input.

Sure.

No, I disagree to an EXTENT with your opinion; but that doesn't make it wrong. It's just that mine differs.

Fair enough.

My Sensei has been doing Ninjutsu for 30 years now & he can't even fully explain the energies. He can describe it the way you have, but that's about it. When he DEMONSTRATES it, THEN only are the students able to fully grasp it - whether they are advanced or not. The only difference between advanced students & beginners, is that advanced students, over the years of training, can apply the energy more effortlessly. My Sensei says it takes a while, for some it takes years to perfect the energy used in Ninjutsu.

So... your teacher has been doing this for three decades, and can't explain it? Okay. I will repeat, though, that the idea of "applying energies" as described here is not a part of the teachings of any of the schools (ryu) in any of the ninjutsu organisations... it can be a way to understand a particular methodology, but I wouldn't take it to the level of there being different "energies"... as that actually works counter to the arts themselves.

You ARE right in saying that once you make up words, it can entirely miss the purpose of the technique, or be a bit misleading - in some cases, yes. However, when my Sensei describes it to me like that, MY brain can understand it better, mysticism or not. I don't think like everyone else does; so when I AM able to fully grasp it in such a way, that's all that matters to me. It doesn't matter to me what YOU think or the next person. In fact, how I learn & how I am taught, will NOT be the same for every other person, AS LONG AS I AM improving & progressing in my art.

Okay, and, as said, if this is the way it's taught in your dojo, and it works for you and your guys, great. The point is that that is not an accurate description of ninjutsu and it's teaching concepts and ideas... just the way your dojo does things.

Nothing though, helps as much as demonstration - I have noticed that when my Sensei demonstrates, everyone has an "ah-ha!" moment. Even after he demonstrates, they have the tendency to use some strength in their techniques, & then the technique FAILS; why? Because they've approached it using the wrong energy.

Proper mechanics are required to perform the waza without "muscle"... not this "adapt your energy into water/earth/fire/wind" idea.

In my opinion, NINJUTSU cannot be put into words. The logic of it, YES. The spiritual side? To an EXTENT, but NEVER 100%.

This isn't even anything to do with the spiritual side of the teachings, you understand.

In fairness, we're not her sensei, no matter how much experience we have.

Agreed.

I like your mindset, you seem like a humble person, which I like. You're right, nobody here is my teacher in person. But I can ALWAYS do with VIRTUAL Sensei's.

Even there, I would advise caution... you haven't vetted us, and honestly, you don't have anywhere near the experience or understanding to do so effectively or accurately.

Please don't get offended at my opinions, or my views. I do NOT know everything. NOBODY will EVER know everything, life is simply too short.

While this is true, stating this so declaratively with 18 months exposure to the art can be a tricky thing...

I'll appreciate it if you could bring in your friend who has trained under Tanemura, because I'd like to keep in contact with him whenever I have any questions or when I want some advice. I AM a beginner, so I have a lot to wrap my grey matter around.

Tony didn't say that Yamabushii has trained under Tanemura sensei in any sense other than indicating he is a member of the Genbukan... but I'm going to highlight something to you now.

If you are a member of any organisation or dojo teaching the Takamatsuden arts that is not with the Genbukan, you cannot train with the Genbukan. Same with the Bujinkan, for that matter. Secondly, by looking to the Genbukan (and it's membership) for answers, you are looking in the wrong place... they teach the arts the way that Tanemura sensei feels is the best, most accurate method for correct transmission of the lines and arts he has amassed... but that does not mean that it is the same as the way they are found in the Bujinkan, or in Toshindo, or in any other off-shoot. So by getting the Genbukan method from a Genbukan member you may very well be getting something that is considered "wrong" in your organisation.

If he trained DIRECTLY under Tanemura, that would be EVEN BETTER. I would then consider myself damn lucky.

Thank you.

Why? And I mean that genuinely. What do you think training directly under Tanemura is like? What do you perceive the benefits as being? What do you know of Tanemura's methodology and approach? Or are you just enamoured with the idea of training with a senior Japanese teacher because they're Japanese, and you've heard of him? If you are, that's quite common... but the reality is often quite different to the fantasy.

I never referred to anything as being "mystic", until someone else brought it up. What I DID do, is mention the Godai. That's what I did. I tried to explain what lies behind all the "mysticism" - if THAT is what people who know absolutely nothing about the art would like to view it as. My purpose was never to make anything seem unrealistic, until someone else gave it that impression.

To be fair, you mentioned the Godai in the sense of "shift(ing) into the different elements"... "Martial Arts are all about energy & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body"... "transform(ing your) energy"... "shut the elements energy off"... and so on. This is all rather "mystical" phrasing... and the Godai itself wasn't mentioned (by name) until after this (your first post in this thread).

Read my very first comment on this thread. It AAAAAALLLLLLLL escalated from there.

Oh, I have. Several times.

If the readers were anything like me, they would read on to avoid any confusion & to educate themselves.

(So, if you're reading this thread, READ ON, DON'T STOP).

Sure... thing is, and this is meant as gently as possible, the reader will not be accurately informed and educated on the concepts, realities, and teachings of ninjutsu by reading the posts you have made on the subject.

Well, I'm not a woman that likes to be controlled. Protected, yes. Controlled, no. My father was controlling enough, so it stems from my childhood. I'm a complete rebel now.

When I think of authority:

Autocrative leadership style - HITLER was an autocrative leader.

A MAN of true integrity supports others, he provides, he helps others grow, he doesn't compromise his standards, he doesn't look down upon others... That's what enviable leadership is to me. I don't like people in who think they're better than others.

Someone who goes out of their way to make another person feel insignificant, IS insecure to me. It's a horrible character trait & a BIG turn off coming from a man.

Most of you men on here lack empathy. You don't take into consideration that I don't think like you do, & that I think on an emotional level.

That's the difference between men & women. It's not in my biology to be able to explain in logical terms the things that I feel or experience. I express it through emotion, not on the bloody Internet. In fact, it only frustrates me. You ALL frustrate me.

Okay, I'm not going to go through this whole post, but I will say this:

You have been a member here for (as of this writing) less than three weeks. You are in no position to comment on the personalities of any members here, or whether any aspect is gender related or not. I mean.... "most of you men on here lack empathy"?!? You base that on what, exactly?

I was giving an opinion based on the Godai, I mentioned the different energies associated with each "element", or however every other martial art would like to view it as; & then it escalated from there. I never stated facts, only opinions. Some guy said that it was founded by Steven K. Hayes, my one Genbukan friend says the opposite. So, really, I would just like to know the truth, because I don't want to be misinformed if ever someone asks me these questions. I don't want to lead people onto the wrong path.

Hmm... "some guy"? Not sure whether to be amused or insulted by that....

Okay, you don't want to lead people to inaccurate thoughts? Then you explain it this way: "In my dojo, here is how we approach kata..." not "in Ninjutsu, all kata are approached this way". One is accurate (potentially), the other definitively is not.

Exactly what you're describing right now, is how we implement our kata; sometimes explaining to me is not enough, & then my teacher will train with me. By then I can grasp the entire concept. It takes beginners a while to tap into that feeling... I'm naturally a VERY tense person; & when I tense up, it makes it a lot harder for me to do the kata... I'm used to boxing, & lifting weights.

Okay... relaxing is not the same as "applying the energy of water" or similar... it's just, well, relaxing. If you use a particular visualisation for that which involves elemental concepts, cool... but it's not the same as it being part of ninjutsu.

As they say here in broken Zulu: "EISH!"

Now I'm confused about the messages...

I'm very curious why you may disagree? Perhaps I can learn a bit more from your input. Have you tried some Ninjutsu in your art? If so, which kata did you like most & why?

If Kirk had trained in any ninjutsu, it would not have been in any other art he trained in... you train in ninjutsu when you're training in ninjutsu... not when doing other arts...

Hi,

Thank you for the tag. Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with Stephen Hayes' teachings about the godai. However, in the base Genbukan curriculum for the kyu levels, the only mentions of anything related to the elements are in the introductory rank, and even those are just a part of the rei (bows). The actual teachings about anything "godai" related would be mostly kuden from teachers or a part of Amatsu Tatara which is essentially the more spiritual side of Ninpo.

Not sure if this answered your question at all.

Yeah, that matches what other members have told me (with the addition of kamae sometimes being taught by relating them to the tactical expression of the elements). For the record, the Amatsu Tatara doesn't contain anything to do with the Godai as far as I'm aware.

The only other training aspect that I can think of that implies the Godai is the Sanshin no Kata, pretty much found in ally organisations... of course, that's nothing to do with "energies"...

By "standard curriculum", are you referring to our base curriculum for non-black belt ranks? By Genbukan standards, that would be the base curriculum. Once you achieve shodan/black belt in Ninpo, it's similar to graduating high school. You're then off to university and you select a major. In the Genbukan, this can be continuing to grade up in Ninpo, or begin formally ranking up in Jujutsu, Koryu Karate, Chugoku Kenpo, Bikenjutsu, Bojutsu, Naginatajutsu, or any ryu ha such as Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu, Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Gikan Ryu, etc. So ultimately, there is really only one "standard curriculum" which is your white belt (10th kyu) to 3rd stripe brown belt (1st kyu). Under that context, the kata you learn from 10th-1st kyu require no such thing.

Cool. Thanks for that.

Beyond 1st kyu (e.g. shodan and up), that may change. While I am unaware of any formal requirement (except possibly in Amatsu Tatara) to associate elemental energy with kata, I do know that there is kuden (verbal transmission) associated with many kata. So while I would avoid saying it's a requirement, I would also say that by understanding the elements and being able to attribute them to kata, they can improve your techniques.

Tactical, yes. "Energy", requiring the practitioner to change internally along the ways suggested, is not something I've ever encountered.

Example: You are doing a technique called "suisha". This means "water wheel". The root element in this technique is water. Your opponent attacks you and you receive that energy then redirect it back, ultimately throwing them backwards in a manner where you almost end up looking like a water wheel.

Hmm.... thinking about Suisha, I don't know that I'd attribute the concept of "water" itself, based purely on the name... the name refers to a common water feature in many Japanese gardens (sometimes thought to be associated with being "zen", due to the white noise effect, but actually derived from Shinto aspects...) where the water pushes down on a paddle to turn a wheel or similar... in Suisha, that's exactly what you do... pressure down on one side to lift up the opposite... as you say, "looking like a water wheel (Suisha)... of course, it's them that resemble the wheel, not yourself, they are thrown to the side, rather than back...

In terms of there being a "root element", in the sense of something like the Godai (or Gogyo.... we'll look at this in a moment), Kukishin Ryu is, of course, not based or related to Taoism (which is where the elemental concepts are drawn from), but to Shinto, with the Kuki family having their own lineage of Shinto teachings, referred to as Nakatomi Shinto... so I wouldn't look to Taoist concepts as being a large influence there. Same, of course, with the Amatsu Tatara mentioned above, as that is linked with the Kuki methodologies quite strongly, of course.

Or maybe you are assuming a kamae (a.k.a. posture) which is very strong and defensive; this would be a kamae describing the earth. Wind can be attributed to quickness and evasiveness while fire can be attributed to directness and aggression (for the lack of a better word). Ultimately, the 5th being "void" (or "heaven") is being able to culminate all 4 together.

This idea of relating a kamae to a (tactical) elemental concept is what I got from other members as well... and is the closest I've come across in the Genbukan.

From a more non-physical perspective - if someone is angry with you (fire), you should avoid displaying anger back toward them because, well, obviously you can't fight fire with fire. It would be better to remain calm and redirect their energy into something more positive. This would be assuming the role of water.

Let's have some fun...

So far, we've been discussing the Godai... 五大... pretty literally the "big five (universal structural concepts)", which are Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void (Emptiness). This concept is used to describe the make up of the Universe... in that everything that exists is made up of Earth (solid material), Water (liquid), Fire (energy releasing), Wind (gaseous forms), or Void (vacuum, which can be filled with any of the previous). The order itself is a little interesting, as it gives the order of the appearance for (specifically human) life to exist,, with the opposite order for the occasion of death.

In that, the first aspect to be created is solid material (a sperm and an ovum forming the basis of the cellular structure of the person)... the second is liquid, formed by the placental sac, as well as the creation of internal blood flow and circulatory systems... thirdly, the ability to generate internal heat (fire)... then you are born, giving rise to the addition of wind (breathing)... finally, the awareness of self (consciousness, representing the elemental force of "void"). The opposite occurs with death, with the consciousness (void) departing first... then the body stops breathing (wind).... loses internal body heat (fire)... dries out and desiccates (water)... then decomposes (loss of physical form... earth).

The Godai is also a part of some Buddhist teachings, with the various aspects being represented by particular shapes (Earth - circle, Water - square, Fire - triangle, Wind - crescent on it's side, Void - teardrop). This symbol is seen often on Buddhist gravestones, for the record, as a representation of the Buddhist teachings of a life cycle (among other aspects).

While this is sometimes appropriated for tactical concepts, it is largely (again) the interpretation of Stephen Hayes that does so... far more commonly, when the study of tactics is entered into, the concept of the Gogyo is the one encountered.

The Gogyo (五行), which more literally refers to the "five phases", is a tactical expression of the natural elements (as opposed to universal structural concepts), which are listed in a cycle of growth and control/destruction. These elements are Wood - Fire - Earth - Metal - Water in their "growth form, and Wood - Earth - Water - Fire - Metal in their controlling/destructive form. To illustrate this, they are often listed in a circle in the growth list, with a star-shape showing the order for the controlling form.

To put it simply, Wood is used to fuel a Fire... Fire is used to harden Earth (such as clay), as well as creating "earth" in the form of ash... Metal is brought forth from the Earth... Water is used to quench and harden Metal (when making weapons, for instance), as well as metal (tools) being used to collect water.... and Water is used to grow Wood. Conversely, Wood (trees and their roots) break up rocks and the Earth (in this sense, if an opponent is solid and unshakable, work by inserting yourself into their structure to stop them from being able to hold it)... Earth is used to dam Water and stop it's flow (in this sense, if an opponent is flowing around you, remain solid and allow them to break upon your strength)... Water is, of course, used to put out Fire (in this sense, if an opponent is aggressively charging forwards, surround and smother them to dissipate their force)... Fire is used to melt Metal (in this sense, "metal" is tactically the approach of small attacks to break down an opponent... so the response is to overwhelm before they can cut you down)... and Metal is used to chop Wood (in this sense, Wood represents a growing attack designed to weaken strength, so you respond with cutting down each of the attempts to insinuate into your defences).

This tactical approach is found in a number of classical systems, or a variation of it (such as Kashima Shinryu's approach of "a circle, a wedge, and a line")... whereas the Godai is not typically used in such a fashion.

Granted, the far majority of classes in Genbukan Ninpo won't entail any discussions such as these. What I explained is a VERY rough and high level overview. There are very, very deep spiritual meanings behind this stuff and isn't taught to most people. Even then, that information probably wouldn't be shared with the public.

Cool.

Apologies for the long winded answer. Wanted to try my best to answer based on my current knowledge.

Ha! You've have seen my posts, yeah? But thanks for the insight.

The only reason we use the Godai, is because when we do kata, let's say I do a kata that is flowing (usually in hira - a stance where my arms are open to the sides & my feet further apart - you usually turn very lightly with the momentum of it); we would then associate that with "wind" - just so that we know in our minds that it's a light movement.

Which is very much the Stephen Hayes approach... even down to the mis-naming of Hira Ichimonji no Kamae... Hira no Kamae is what he referred to as Shizen no Kamae in most of the ryu-ha...

Yes, I agree, it is the spiritual side of Ninjutsu.

It's really not, though. Just FYI.

I will post videos of all of the kata for you guys, so that you can understand it better, if you want.

Perhaps we do follow some of Hayes' principles, I really don't know. I will ask my teacher about it tomorrow, & then let everyone know.

Well, you do. You don't need to ask, you've already provided that information... you mentioned on another post that your school's Facebook page is "Ninkai Bujutsu"... which show your school to be the South African branch of Toshindo, which is Stephen Hayes' organisation.

I do know that we're an organisation on our own, but I think we still train under the Bujinkan & its curriculum.

No, you don't. I'm not going to get into the history too much, but the connection between Stephen Hayes and the Bujinkan is somewhat history these days, and has been for years....

Why we're a separate organisation, is because my teacher wanted to avoid politics - he said the belt system in his previous school was very easily obtainable, people who shouldn't have graded, did.

At the same time he likes Tanemura, because he says that Tanemura was willing to spread the art, which keeps the art contained. Hatsumi, on the other hand, didn't want foreigners to know about the art. I'm not sure how they go about it today though, as I see Hatsumi training with foreigners. Perhaps he's become a bit more open to the idea...

Hmm.... no, none of that is how I would describe either of them... while Tanemura has stated that he feels the future of Japanese martial arts is in the West, due to a lack of interest among the Japanese, Hatsumi has very much been wanting to get Westerners involved since before the Genbukan existed... but I do have to re-iterate, by being a member of Toshindo, or even by being a part of an independent group/dojo, you are prohibited from training in the Bujinkan or Genbukan by those organisations' rules. There are a number of reasons for this, and you may find occasional dojo who are willing to overlook it, but as a general rule, you train with your group, not with others. And the Genbukan is more strict with that than any other.

I appreciate everyone's efforts. Thanks a million! x

I hope you got something out of this, and it wasn't too overwhelming for you. I'm trying to be gentle here, and hope you can see that... as you said, you're young, and very much a beginner at this, so there's no expectation for you to be accurate in everything you say... of course, recognising those limitation can help a fair amount.

If you are after any confirmation or clarification of anything I've said, of course, simply ask, and I'll do my best to answer.

 

[Tez3]

Am I the only one then who does martial arts just to bash people?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Am I the only one then who does martial arts just to bash people?

Most days, that's not me. Some days, though...

 

[Tarrycat]

I didn't see any girls? Just Suzuki Sensei doing Seishan.

I love kata but I also love kata Bunkai, the applications of it. The Basics of Bunkai: Part 1 | Iain Abernethy

My primary art is Nihon Goshin Aikido, which is primarily derived from Daito-ryu Jujutsu/Aikijujutsu, with heavy influence from Judo and Shotokan Karatedo. I also have training in Karate and Judo, Ueshiba's Aikido, and a FMA/Jujutsu hybrid (which was mostly FMA, with JJ techniques slipped in where they fit seamlessly), and some miscellaneous cross-training.

I'm very impressed! I love Aikido, my dad wants to take it up. I'm constantly encouraging him to do it, but he's got TOO much damn pride. When he was young, he took up a few Judo classes, & a girl ended up throwing him to the ground. He was so embarrassed, he never went back!

He's just a street fighter.

May I ask what your favourite art is, if you have a preference for one of them, that is?

I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?

 

[Tarrycat]

Am I the only one then who does martial arts just to bash people?

Noooope! I doubt it. I think we all love it secretly... . Well, I would like if someone attacked me so I can hurt them, I just won't hurt anyone in the dojo...

It's difficult to control your emotions. Especially when people tend to push your buttons.

It's obviously not the ONLY reason why I do it, it's more because I'm passionate about it & about the cultures associated with it.

I know people who train to let off some steam, because they hate certain people in their workplace.

 

[Tez3]

It's difficult to control your emotions. Especially when people tend to push your buttons.

It's something that is easier the older you get, my mother always said 'don't get mad, get even' lol.

It's obviously not the ONLY reason why I do it, it's more because I'm passionate about it & about the cultures associated with it.

I can't say I'm passionate about martial arts I do love doing it and enjoy just about everything but the culture is not something I am into. I have my own and care for that more. The history of various martial arts is interesting though but I don't get involved in anything other than the physical aspect.
Talking of culture, I'm off the internet again this weekend. G'mar Hatimah Tovah.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm very impressed! I love Aikido, my dad wants to take it up. I'm constantly encouraging him to do it, but he's got TOO much damn pride. When he was young, he took up a few Judo classes, & a girl ended up throwing him to the ground. He was so embarrassed, he never went back!

He's just a street fighter.

May I ask what your favourite art is, if you have a preference for one of them, that is?

I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?

I've mostly only trained one or two at a time. I've never found it confusing to train more than one, neither as a beginner (training Shotokan Karate and Kodokan Judo at the same time, starting withing a few weeks of each other), nor after more experience (training/cross-training other arts alongside NGA).

My favorite art is NGA - it's the one that gives me the most range and options, and things to work on when I want to be really nice, too. That said, I don't always train NGA the way many instructors do. My experience with Judo (and cross-training in other arts) left me with a love of up-close, Judo-style grappling. So I bring more of the Judo influence out in NGA than many do. I also use/teach more striking than many NGA instructors. I guess the real answer is I like NGA the way I teach it - that's my favorite.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?

After I have killed someone by my punch, on

- Monday, I will stand on his dead body and post "White crane flap wings" to prove I'm a Taiji guy.
- Tuesday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Pi Chuan" to prove I'm a XingYi guy.
- Wednesday, I will walk around his dead body as "Circle walking" to prove I'm a Bagua guy.
- Thursday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Jab on golden rooster stance" to prove I'm a long fist guy.
- Friday, I will stand on his dead body and post "YJKYM" to prove I'm a WC guy.
- Saturday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Left and right double Yin Yang" to prove I'm a preying mantis guy.
- Sunday, I will lift that dead body over my head as "Firemen's carry" to prove I'm a Chinese wrestler.

My simple punch is just a simple punch. Which MA style should deserve that credit depend on the day of the week.

 

[Yamabushii]

Ha! You've have seen my posts, yeah? But thanks for the insight.

And thank you for sharing your's. I think I read in some other post briefly where you shared your experience. I commend you for your experience and insight.

Yeah, that matches what other members have told me (with the addition of kamae sometimes being taught by relating them to the tactical expression of the elements). For the record, the Amatsu Tatara doesn't contain anything to do with the Godai as far as I'm aware.[\QUOTE]

The only other training aspect that I can think of that implies the Godai is the Sanshin no Kata, pretty much found in ally organisations... of course, that's nothing to do with "energies"...[\QUOTE]

Tactical, yes. "Energy", requiring the practitioner to change internally along the ways suggested, is not something I've ever encountered.

Hmm.... thinking about Suisha, I don't know that I'd attribute the concept of "water" itself, based purely on the name... the name refers to a common water feature in many Japanese gardens (sometimes thought to be associated with being "zen", due to the white noise effect, but actually derived from Shinto aspects...) where the water pushes down on a paddle to turn a wheel or similar... in Suisha, that's exactly what you do... pressure down on one side to lift up the opposite... as you say, "looking like a water wheel (Suisha)... of course, it's them that resemble the wheel, not yourself, they are thrown to the side, rather than back...

In terms of there being a "root element", in the sense of something like the Godai (or Gogyo.... we'll look at this in a moment), Kukishin Ryu is, of course, not based or related to Taoism (which is where the elemental concepts are drawn from), but to Shinto, with the Kuki family having their own lineage of Shinto teachings, referred to as Nakatomi Shinto... so I wouldn't look to Taoist concepts as being a large influence there. Same, of course, with the Amatsu Tatara mentioned above, as that is linked with the Kuki methodologies quite strongly, of course.

This idea of relating a kamae to a (tactical) elemental concept is what I got from other members as well... and is the closest I've come across in the Genbukan.

Let's have some fun...

So far, we've been discussing the Godai... 五大... pretty literally the "big five (universal structural concepts)", which are Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void (Emptiness). This concept is used to describe the make up of the Universe... in that everything that exists is made up of Earth (solid material), Water (liquid), Fire (energy releasing), Wind (gaseous forms), or Void (vacuum, which can be filled with any of the previous). The order itself is a little interesting, as it gives the order of the appearance for (specifically human) life to exist,, with the opposite order for the occasion of death.

In that, the first aspect to be created is solid material (a sperm and an ovum forming the basis of the cellular structure of the person)... the second is liquid, formed by the placental sac, as well as the creation of internal blood flow and circulatory systems... thirdly, the ability to generate internal heat (fire)... then you are born, giving rise to the addition of wind (breathing)... finally, the awareness of self (consciousness, representing the elemental force of "void"). The opposite occurs with death, with the consciousness (void) departing first... then the body stops breathing (wind).... loses internal body heat (fire)... dries out and desiccates (water)... then decomposes (loss of physical form... earth).

The Godai is also a part of some Buddhist teachings, with the various aspects being represented by particular shapes (Earth - circle, Water - square, Fire - triangle, Wind - crescent on it's side, Void - teardrop). This symbol is seen often on Buddhist gravestones, for the record, as a representation of the Buddhist teachings of a life cycle (among other aspects).

While this is sometimes appropriated for tactical concepts, it is largely (again) the interpretation of Stephen Hayes that does so... far more commonly, when the study of tactics is entered into, the concept of the Gogyo is the one encountered.

The Gogyo (五行), which more literally refers to the "five phases", is a tactical expression of the natural elements (as opposed to universal structural concepts), which are listed in a cycle of growth and control/destruction. These elements are Wood - Fire - Earth - Metal - Water in their "growth form, and Wood - Earth - Water - Fire - Metal in their controlling/destructive form. To illustrate this, they are often listed in a circle in the growth list, with a star-shape showing the order for the controlling form.

To put it simply, Wood is used to fuel a Fire... Fire is used to harden Earth (such as clay), as well as creating "earth" in the form of ash... Metal is brought forth from the Earth... Water is used to quench and harden Metal (when making weapons, for instance), as well as metal (tools) being used to collect water.... and Water is used to grow Wood. Conversely, Wood (trees and their roots) break up rocks and the Earth (in this sense, if an opponent is solid and unshakable, work by inserting yourself into their structure to stop them from being able to hold it)... Earth is used to dam Water and stop it's flow (in this sense, if an opponent is flowing around you, remain solid and allow them to break upon your strength)... Water is, of course, used to put out Fire (in this sense, if an opponent is aggressively charging forwards, surround and smother them to dissipate their force)... Fire is used to melt Metal (in this sense, "metal" is tactically the approach of small attacks to break down an opponent... so the response is to overwhelm before they can cut you down)... and Metal is used to chop Wood (in this sense, Wood represents a growing attack designed to weaken strength, so you respond with cutting down each of the attempts to insinuate into your defences).

This tactical approach is found in a number of classical systems, or a variation of it (such as Kashima Shinryu's approach of "a circle, a wedge, and a line")... whereas the Godai is not typically used in such a fashion.

My apologies for lumping in and incorrectly pairing some quotes together, but I really just want to give one answer. Thank you for the clarification on the tactical vs godai discussion. I didn't mean to sound as if I was implying one should internally change their energy based on the technique, but as you described, doing it from a tactical perspective. As I mentioned before, I'm not familiar with Stephen Hayes' principles on the godai. I did find your explanation on the Gogyo to be very well explained though.

Thank you again.

 

[Tarrycat]

This, uh... won't be short. Sorry, guys...



Actually, no, it's not. I'll cover this more as we go... as well as a few other pertinent factors for your group, and your stated intents...



There really isn't anything like the way you've described things taught in the Genbukan. Yamabushii has confirmed this (we'll get to that later), and I have also confirmed this with a number of my Genbukan and ex-Genbukan friends... including a couple of Dojo-cho's. Each said "well, I don't know what the level of experience this members friend is, but...." followed by repudiation of the idea outright. The closest I got to confirming your ideas was a method of explaining the tactical applications of the kamae to beginners. To quote one of my friends "It's not something I've ever seen, or I've heard Tanemura soke refer to at any time."



In the greater "ninjutsu" world, that simple idea (what type of energy to apply) simply does not exist. The only place that deals with that is Toshindo, Stephen Hayes' group... and even there, it's less about "types of energy to apply", and more simply a way to categorise (tactically) different waza and methodologies.



Sure.



Fair enough.



So... your teacher has been doing this for three decades, and can't explain it? Okay. I will repeat, though, that the idea of "applying energies" as described here is not a part of the teachings of any of the schools (ryu) in any of the ninjutsu organisations... it can be a way to understand a particular methodology, but I wouldn't take it to the level of there being different "energies"... as that actually works counter to the arts themselves.



Okay, and, as said, if this is the way it's taught in your dojo, and it works for you and your guys, great. The point is that that is not an accurate description of ninjutsu and it's teaching concepts and ideas... just the way your dojo does things.



Proper mechanics are required to perform the waza without "muscle"... not this "adapt your energy into water/earth/fire/wind" idea.



This isn't even anything to do with the spiritual side of the teachings, you understand.



Agreed.



Even there, I would advise caution... you haven't vetted us, and honestly, you don't have anywhere near the experience or understanding to do so effectively or accurately.



While this is true, stating this so declaratively with 18 months exposure to the art can be a tricky thing...



Tony didn't say that Yamabushii has trained under Tanemura sensei in any sense other than indicating he is a member of the Genbukan... but I'm going to highlight something to you now.

If you are a member of any organisation or dojo teaching the Takamatsuden arts that is not with the Genbukan, you cannot train with the Genbukan. Same with the Bujinkan, for that matter. Secondly, by looking to the Genbukan (and it's membership) for answers, you are looking in the wrong place... they teach the arts the way that Tanemura sensei feels is the best, most accurate method for correct transmission of the lines and arts he has amassed... but that does not mean that it is the same as the way they are found in the Bujinkan, or in Toshindo, or in any other off-shoot. So by getting the Genbukan method from a Genbukan member you may very well be getting something that is considered "wrong" in your organisation.



Why? And I mean that genuinely. What do you think training directly under Tanemura is like? What do you perceive the benefits as being? What do you know of Tanemura's methodology and approach? Or are you just enamoured with the idea of training with a senior Japanese teacher because they're Japanese, and you've heard of him? If you are, that's quite common... but the reality is often quite different to the fantasy.



To be fair, you mentioned the Godai in the sense of "shift(ing) into the different elements"... "Martial Arts are all about energy & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body"... "transform(ing your) energy"... "shut the elements energy off"... and so on. This is all rather "mystical" phrasing... and the Godai itself wasn't mentioned (by name) until after this (your first post in this thread).



Oh, I have. Several times.



Sure... thing is, and this is meant as gently as possible, the reader will not be accurately informed and educated on the concepts, realities, and teachings of ninjutsu by reading the posts you have made on the subject.



Okay, I'm not going to go through this whole post, but I will say this:

You have been a member here for (as of this writing) less than three weeks. You are in no position to comment on the personalities of any members here, or whether any aspect is gender related or not. I mean.... "most of you men on here lack empathy"?!? You base that on what, exactly?



Hmm... "some guy"? Not sure whether to be amused or insulted by that....

Okay, you don't want to lead people to inaccurate thoughts? Then you explain it this way: "In my dojo, here is how we approach kata..." not "in Ninjutsu, all kata are approached this way". One is accurate (potentially), the other definitively is not.



Okay... relaxing is not the same as "applying the energy of water" or similar... it's just, well, relaxing. If you use a particular visualisation for that which involves elemental concepts, cool... but it's not the same as it being part of ninjutsu.



If Kirk had trained in any ninjutsu, it would not have been in any other art he trained in... you train in ninjutsu when you're training in ninjutsu... not when doing other arts...



Yeah, that matches what other members have told me (with the addition of kamae sometimes being taught by relating them to the tactical expression of the elements). For the record, the Amatsu Tatara doesn't contain anything to do with the Godai as far as I'm aware.

The only other training aspect that I can think of that implies the Godai is the Sanshin no Kata, pretty much found in ally organisations... of course, that's nothing to do with "energies"...



Cool. Thanks for that.



Tactical, yes. "Energy", requiring the practitioner to change internally along the ways suggested, is not something I've ever encountered.



Hmm.... thinking about Suisha, I don't know that I'd attribute the concept of "water" itself, based purely on the name... the name refers to a common water feature in many Japanese gardens (sometimes thought to be associated with being "zen", due to the white noise effect, but actually derived from Shinto aspects...) where the water pushes down on a paddle to turn a wheel or similar... in Suisha, that's exactly what you do... pressure down on one side to lift up the opposite... as you say, "looking like a water wheel (Suisha)... of course, it's them that resemble the wheel, not yourself, they are thrown to the side, rather than back...

In terms of there being a "root element", in the sense of something like the Godai (or Gogyo.... we'll look at this in a moment), Kukishin Ryu is, of course, not based or related to Taoism (which is where the elemental concepts are drawn from), but to Shinto, with the Kuki family having their own lineage of Shinto teachings, referred to as Nakatomi Shinto... so I wouldn't look to Taoist concepts as being a large influence there. Same, of course, with the Amatsu Tatara mentioned above, as that is linked with the Kuki methodologies quite strongly, of course.



This idea of relating a kamae to a (tactical) elemental concept is what I got from other members as well... and is the closest I've come across in the Genbukan.



Let's have some fun...

So far, we've been discussing the Godai... 五大... pretty literally the "big five (universal structural concepts)", which are Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void (Emptiness). This concept is used to describe the make up of the Universe... in that everything that exists is made up of Earth (solid material), Water (liquid), Fire (energy releasing), Wind (gaseous forms), or Void (vacuum, which can be filled with any of the previous). The order itself is a little interesting, as it gives the order of the appearance for (specifically human) life to exist,, with the opposite order for the occasion of death.

In that, the first aspect to be created is solid material (a sperm and an ovum forming the basis of the cellular structure of the person)... the second is liquid, formed by the placental sac, as well as the creation of internal blood flow and circulatory systems... thirdly, the ability to generate internal heat (fire)... then you are born, giving rise to the addition of wind (breathing)... finally, the awareness of self (consciousness, representing the elemental force of "void"). The opposite occurs with death, with the consciousness (void) departing first... then the body stops breathing (wind).... loses internal body heat (fire)... dries out and desiccates (water)... then decomposes (loss of physical form... earth).

The Godai is also a part of some Buddhist teachings, with the various aspects being represented by particular shapes (Earth - circle, Water - square, Fire - triangle, Wind - crescent on it's side, Void - teardrop). This symbol is seen often on Buddhist gravestones, for the record, as a representation of the Buddhist teachings of a life cycle (among other aspects).

While this is sometimes appropriated for tactical concepts, it is largely (again) the interpretation of Stephen Hayes that does so... far more commonly, when the study of tactics is entered into, the concept of the Gogyo is the one encountered.

The Gogyo (五行), which more literally refers to the "five phases", is a tactical expression of the natural elements (as opposed to universal structural concepts), which are listed in a cycle of growth and control/destruction. These elements are Wood - Fire - Earth - Metal - Water in their "growth form, and Wood - Earth - Water - Fire - Metal in their controlling/destructive form. To illustrate this, they are often listed in a circle in the growth list, with a star-shape showing the order for the controlling form.

To put it simply, Wood is used to fuel a Fire... Fire is used to harden Earth (such as clay), as well as creating "earth" in the form of ash... Metal is brought forth from the Earth... Water is used to quench and harden Metal (when making weapons, for instance), as well as metal (tools) being used to collect water.... and Water is used to grow Wood. Conversely, Wood (trees and their roots) break up rocks and the Earth (in this sense, if an opponent is solid and unshakable, work by inserting yourself into their structure to stop them from being able to hold it)... Earth is used to dam Water and stop it's flow (in this sense, if an opponent is flowing around you, remain solid and allow them to break upon your strength)... Water is, of course, used to put out Fire (in this sense, if an opponent is aggressively charging forwards, surround and smother them to dissipate their force)... Fire is used to melt Metal (in this sense, "metal" is tactically the approach of small attacks to break down an opponent... so the response is to overwhelm before they can cut you down)... and Metal is used to chop Wood (in this sense, Wood represents a growing attack designed to weaken strength, so you respond with cutting down each of the attempts to insinuate into your defences).

This tactical approach is found in a number of classical systems, or a variation of it (such as Kashima Shinryu's approach of "a circle, a wedge, and a line")... whereas the Godai is not typically used in such a fashion.



Cool.



Ha! You've have seen my posts, yeah? But thanks for the insight.



Which is very much the Stephen Hayes approach... even down to the mis-naming of Hira Ichimonji no Kamae... Hira no Kamae is what he referred to as Shizen no Kamae in most of the ryu-ha...



It's really not, though. Just FYI.



Well, you do. You don't need to ask, you've already provided that information... you mentioned on another post that your school's Facebook page is "Ninkai Bujutsu"... which show your school to be the South African branch of Toshindo, which is Stephen Hayes' organisation.



No, you don't. I'm not going to get into the history too much, but the connection between Stephen Hayes and the Bujinkan is somewhat history these days, and has been for years....



Hmm.... no, none of that is how I would describe either of them... while Tanemura has stated that he feels the future of Japanese martial arts is in the West, due to a lack of interest among the Japanese, Hatsumi has very much been wanting to get Westerners involved since before the Genbukan existed... but I do have to re-iterate, by being a member of Toshindo, or even by being a part of an independent group/dojo, you are prohibited from training in the Bujinkan or Genbukan by those organisations' rules. There are a number of reasons for this, and you may find occasional dojo who are willing to overlook it, but as a general rule, you train with your group, not with others. And the Genbukan is more strict with that than any other.



I hope you got something out of this, and it wasn't too overwhelming for you. I'm trying to be gentle here, and hope you can see that... as you said, you're young, and very much a beginner at this, so there's no expectation for you to be accurate in everything you say... of course, recognising those limitation can help a fair amount.

If you are after any confirmation or clarification of anything I've said, of course, simply ask, and I'll do my best to answer.

Th

This, uh... won't be short. Sorry, guys...



Actually, no, it's not. I'll cover this more as we go... as well as a few other pertinent factors for your group, and your stated intents...



There really isn't anything like the way you've described things taught in the Genbukan. Yamabushii has confirmed this (we'll get to that later), and I have also confirmed this with a number of my Genbukan and ex-Genbukan friends... including a couple of Dojo-cho's. Each said "well, I don't know what the level of experience this members friend is, but...." followed by repudiation of the idea outright. The closest I got to confirming your ideas was a method of explaining the tactical applications of the kamae to beginners. To quote one of my friends "It's not something I've ever seen, or I've heard Tanemura soke refer to at any time."



In the greater "ninjutsu" world, that simple idea (what type of energy to apply) simply does not exist. The only place that deals with that is Toshindo, Stephen Hayes' group... and even there, it's less about "types of energy to apply", and more simply a way to categorise (tactically) different waza and methodologies.



Sure.



Fair enough.



So... your teacher has been doing this for three decades, and can't explain it? Okay. I will repeat, though, that the idea of "applying energies" as described here is not a part of the teachings of any of the schools (ryu) in any of the ninjutsu organisations... it can be a way to understand a particular methodology, but I wouldn't take it to the level of there being different "energies"... as that actually works counter to the arts themselves.



Okay, and, as said, if this is the way it's taught in your dojo, and it works for you and your guys, great. The point is that that is not an accurate description of ninjutsu and it's teaching concepts and ideas... just the way your dojo does things.



Proper mechanics are required to perform the waza without "muscle"... not this "adapt your energy into water/earth/fire/wind" idea.



This isn't even anything to do with the spiritual side of the teachings, you understand.



Agreed.



Even there, I would advise caution... you haven't vetted us, and honestly, you don't have anywhere near the experience or understanding to do so effectively or accurately.



While this is true, stating this so declaratively with 18 months exposure to the art can be a tricky thing...



Tony didn't say that Yamabushii has trained under Tanemura sensei in any sense other than indicating he is a member of the Genbukan... but I'm going to highlight something to you now.

If you are a member of any organisation or dojo teaching the Takamatsuden arts that is not with the Genbukan, you cannot train with the Genbukan. Same with the Bujinkan, for that matter. Secondly, by looking to the Genbukan (and it's membership) for answers, you are looking in the wrong place... they teach the arts the way that Tanemura sensei feels is the best, most accurate method for correct transmission of the lines and arts he has amassed... but that does not mean that it is the same as the way they are found in the Bujinkan, or in Toshindo, or in any other off-shoot. So by getting the Genbukan method from a Genbukan member you may very well be getting something that is considered "wrong" in your organisation.



Why? And I mean that genuinely. What do you think training directly under Tanemura is like? What do you perceive the benefits as being? What do you know of Tanemura's methodology and approach? Or are you just enamoured with the idea of training with a senior Japanese teacher because they're Japanese, and you've heard of him? If you are, that's quite common... but the reality is often quite different to the fantasy.



To be fair, you mentioned the Godai in the sense of "shift(ing) into the different elements"... "Martial Arts are all about energy & connecting to your higher self. It's about the vibration of the atoms in your body"... "transform(ing your) energy"... "shut the elements energy off"... and so on. This is all rather "mystical" phrasing... and the Godai itself wasn't mentioned (by name) until after this (your first post in this thread).



Oh, I have. Several times.



Sure... thing is, and this is meant as gently as possible, the reader will not be accurately informed and educated on the concepts, realities, and teachings of ninjutsu by reading the posts you have made on the subject.



Okay, I'm not going to go through this whole post, but I will say this:

You have been a member here for (as of this writing) less than three weeks. You are in no position to comment on the personalities of any members here, or whether any aspect is gender related or not. I mean.... "most of you men on here lack empathy"?!? You base that on what, exactly?



Hmm... "some guy"? Not sure whether to be amused or insulted by that....

Okay, you don't want to lead people to inaccurate thoughts? Then you explain it this way: "In my dojo, here is how we approach kata..." not "in Ninjutsu, all kata are approached this way". One is accurate (potentially), the other definitively is not.



Okay... relaxing is not the same as "applying the energy of water" or similar... it's just, well, relaxing. If you use a particular visualisation for that which involves elemental concepts, cool... but it's not the same as it being part of ninjutsu.



If Kirk had trained in any ninjutsu, it would not have been in any other art he trained in... you train in ninjutsu when you're training in ninjutsu... not when doing other arts...



Yeah, that matches what other members have told me (with the addition of kamae sometimes being taught by relating them to the tactical expression of the elements). For the record, the Amatsu Tatara doesn't contain anything to do with the Godai as far as I'm aware.

The only other training aspect that I can think of that implies the Godai is the Sanshin no Kata, pretty much found in ally organisations... of course, that's nothing to do with "energies"...



Cool. Thanks for that.



Tactical, yes. "Energy", requiring the practitioner to change internally along the ways suggested, is not something I've ever encountered.



Hmm.... thinking about Suisha, I don't know that I'd attribute the concept of "water" itself, based purely on the name... the name refers to a common water feature in many Japanese gardens (sometimes thought to be associated with being "zen", due to the white noise effect, but actually derived from Shinto aspects...) where the water pushes down on a paddle to turn a wheel or similar... in Suisha, that's exactly what you do... pressure down on one side to lift up the opposite... as you say, "looking like a water wheel (Suisha)... of course, it's them that resemble the wheel, not yourself, they are thrown to the side, rather than back...

In terms of there being a "root element", in the sense of something like the Godai (or Gogyo.... we'll look at this in a moment), Kukishin Ryu is, of course, not based or related to Taoism (which is where the elemental concepts are drawn from), but to Shinto, with the Kuki family having their own lineage of Shinto teachings, referred to as Nakatomi Shinto... so I wouldn't look to Taoist concepts as being a large influence there. Same, of course, with the Amatsu Tatara mentioned above, as that is linked with the Kuki methodologies quite strongly, of course.



This idea of relating a kamae to a (tactical) elemental concept is what I got from other members as well... and is the closest I've come across in the Genbukan.



Let's have some fun...

So far, we've been discussing the Godai... 五大... pretty literally the "big five (universal structural concepts)", which are Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Void (Emptiness). This concept is used to describe the make up of the Universe... in that everything that exists is made up of Earth (solid material), Water (liquid), Fire (energy releasing), Wind (gaseous forms), or Void (vacuum, which can be filled with any of the previous). The order itself is a little interesting, as it gives the order of the appearance for (specifically human) life to exist,, with the opposite order for the occasion of death.

In that, the first aspect to be created is solid material (a sperm and an ovum forming the basis of the cellular structure of the person)... the second is liquid, formed by the placental sac, as well as the creation of internal blood flow and circulatory systems... thirdly, the ability to generate internal heat (fire)... then you are born, giving rise to the addition of wind (breathing)... finally, the awareness of self (consciousness, representing the elemental force of "void"). The opposite occurs with death, with the consciousness (void) departing first... then the body stops breathing (wind).... loses internal body heat (fire)... dries out and desiccates (water)... then decomposes (loss of physical form... earth).

The Godai is also a part of some Buddhist teachings, with the various aspects being represented by particular shapes (Earth - circle, Water - square, Fire - triangle, Wind - crescent on it's side, Void - teardrop). This symbol is seen often on Buddhist gravestones, for the record, as a representation of the Buddhist teachings of a life cycle (among other aspects).

While this is sometimes appropriated for tactical concepts, it is largely (again) the interpretation of Stephen Hayes that does so... far more commonly, when the study of tactics is entered into, the concept of the Gogyo is the one encountered.

The Gogyo (五行), which more literally refers to the "five phases", is a tactical expression of the natural elements (as opposed to universal structural concepts), which are listed in a cycle of growth and control/destruction. These elements are Wood - Fire - Earth - Metal - Water in their "growth form, and Wood - Earth - Water - Fire - Metal in their controlling/destructive form. To illustrate this, they are often listed in a circle in the growth list, with a star-shape showing the order for the controlling form.

To put it simply, Wood is used to fuel a Fire... Fire is used to harden Earth (such as clay), as well as creating "earth" in the form of ash... Metal is brought forth from the Earth... Water is used to quench and harden Metal (when making weapons, for instance), as well as metal (tools) being used to collect water.... and Water is used to grow Wood. Conversely, Wood (trees and their roots) break up rocks and the Earth (in this sense, if an opponent is solid and unshakable, work by inserting yourself into their structure to stop them from being able to hold it)... Earth is used to dam Water and stop it's flow (in this sense, if an opponent is flowing around you, remain solid and allow them to break upon your strength)... Water is, of course, used to put out Fire (in this sense, if an opponent is aggressively charging forwards, surround and smother them to dissipate their force)... Fire is used to melt Metal (in this sense, "metal" is tactically the approach of small attacks to break down an opponent... so the response is to overwhelm before they can cut you down)... and Metal is used to chop Wood (in this sense, Wood represents a growing attack designed to weaken strength, so you respond with cutting down each of the attempts to insinuate into your defences).

This tactical approach is found in a number of classical systems, or a variation of it (such as Kashima Shinryu's approach of "a circle, a wedge, and a line")... whereas the Godai is not typically used in such a fashion.



Cool.



Ha! You've have seen my posts, yeah? But thanks for the insight.



Which is very much the Stephen Hayes approach... even down to the mis-naming of Hira Ichimonji no Kamae... Hira no Kamae is what he referred to as Shizen no Kamae in most of the ryu-ha...



It's really not, though. Just FYI.



Well, you do. You don't need to ask, you've already provided that information... you mentioned on another post that your school's Facebook page is "Ninkai Bujutsu"... which show your school to be the South African branch of Toshindo, which is Stephen Hayes' organisation.



No, you don't. I'm not going to get into the history too much, but the connection between Stephen Hayes and the Bujinkan is somewhat history these days, and has been for years....



Hmm.... no, none of that is how I would describe either of them... while Tanemura has stated that he feels the future of Japanese martial arts is in the West, due to a lack of interest among the Japanese, Hatsumi has very much been wanting to get Westerners involved since before the Genbukan existed... but I do have to re-iterate, by being a member of Toshindo, or even by being a part of an independent group/dojo, you are prohibited from training in the Bujinkan or Genbukan by those organisations' rules. There are a number of reasons for this, and you may find occasional dojo who are willing to overlook it, but as a general rule, you train with your group, not with others. And the Genbukan is more strict with that than any other.



I hope you got something out of this, and it wasn't too overwhelming for you. I'm trying to be gentle here, and hope you can see that... as you said, you're young, and very much a beginner at this, so there's no expectation for you to be accurate in everything you say... of course, recognising those limitation can help a fair amount.

If you are after any confirmation or clarification of anything I've said, of course, simply ask, and I'll do my best to answer.

Thank you for the time & the effort you've put into your diligent response, Chris. I very much appreciate it & yes, I would gladly turn to you if I need any information, advice, or guidance, as I can see that you are very experienced. I will keep you on my list. I really didn't mean to cause any confusion, or mean to be rude to some people on here. Some comments I feel was a bit overwhelming & I felt like I had to defend myself, naturally.

I will make a mental note of everything.

I have spoken to some of the students in my class - we do some To-Shin-Do in-between (given the Godai), but we train under the Bujinkan.

I'm aware that we are not allowed to cross-train, due to the politics involved, & I respect that, but I'm not the type of person to disregard people in my personal life just because they belong to another organisation (I will not cross train, though). I care about the fact that we all share the same passion, & that's just not how my mind or my heart works. To me, there will always be a place for everyone. You never know what the next person may teach you; just like you have taught me now. Your knowledge overflows & that makes you very valuable. I appreciate your gentle approach, as I AM very sensitive.

I guess you can say that yes, I do think highly of Tanemura & of Hatsumi, because if it weren't for them passing on the art from Takamatsu, we would never have known about it, or be able to do what we love doing. I'm beyond passionate about it & passionate about the Japanese culture. I'm not so sure if the Japanese love us Westerners? I've heard that they frown upon us, but you know what, that doesn't matter. What matters is what I feel. What they've created is what makes me happy in life, so I don't really care. I don't see them as Gods or anything like that, I just respect them. I respect anyone who has put in the effort to be high up or just very knowledgeable. I was raised to be respectful of people like that, I come from a very stern upbringing.

Thanks again. *

 

[Tarrycat]

After I have killed someone by my punch, on

- Monday, I will stand on his dead body and post "White crane flap wings" to prove I'm a Taiji guy.
- Tuesday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Pi Chuan" to prove I'm a XingYi guy.
- Wednesday, I will walk around his dead body as "Circle walking" to prove I'm a Bagua guy.
- Thursday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Jab on golden rooster stance" to prove I'm a long fist guy.
- Friday, I will stand on his dead body and post "YJKYM" to prove I'm a WC guy.
- Saturday, I will stand on his dead body and post "Left and right double Yin Yang" to prove I'm a preying mantis guy.
- Sunday, I will lift that dead body over my head as "Firemen's carry" to prove I'm a Chinese wrestler.

My simple punch is just a simple punch. Which MA style should deserve that credit depend on the day of the week.

VERY interesting way of putting it, but it makes sense.

 

[Tarrycat]

It's something that is easier the older you get, my mother always said 'don't get mad, get even' lol.



I can't say I'm passionate about martial arts I do love doing it and enjoy just about everything but the culture is not something I am into. I have my own and care for that more. The history of various martial arts is interesting though but I don't get involved in anything other than the physical aspect.
Talking of culture, I'm off the internet again this weekend. G'mar Hatimah Tovah.

Well, that makes you a unique individual in my eyes. Not everyone will like the same things in life or be passionate about the same things. What a tedious world it would've been if we all had similar likes, dislikes, & passions!

Soooo... May I ask what you are passionate about?

 

[lklawson]

I've HEARD that if you do a lot of martial arts at once, it can sometimes get confusing, as you're using a different approach every time. Is that true? Or is it subjective?

Depends. Some of them are easier to conceptually understand together than others. Some of them address areas that the other doesn't typically (such as studying boxing and wrestling together).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[drop bear]

Am I the only one then who does martial arts just to bash people?