Martial Arts Is Not Religion, An Instructor Is Not A God

[dvcochran]

I don't think anyone should be insulting to each other. I don't think "trusting" anyone has any place here. We don't know each other other than what we read in print on a forum of a pretty crazy subject.

As for religion....there's probably as many differences between what people here believe as there are in what they believe about Martial Arts. Sometimes, that's a scary thought to me.

Everyone take a breath, chill, hug your dog.

I see what you are doing there.

 

[dvcochran]

I think it starts with the fact that I don't trust you as far as I can spit.

Based on what I've read, Deism doesn't necessarily even refer to the same theistic deity as xtianity, Islam, or Judaism. While it may refer to the theistic god, it could also be something more like Mother Nature or Providence. The salient point is that some supernatural being made everything and then... lost interest, died, left, moved on to create other things... who knows? So, yes. To answer your question, orthodox xtianity and deism are mutually exclusive. Unless you think god is dead, gone, disinterested, or otherwise has moved on, that there are no miracles, visions are fake, and Jesus was just a dude who died on a cross. I mean, if you believe all that, are you still a xtian? I'll leave that to you to decide.

Fair enough; the feeling is mutual. All I have done is ask a few questions and for whatever reason you fire back with this? Bad form. What did I say/ask that was remotely offensive? I was just asking for clarification.
FWIW, I was with you until the last couple sentences. But this is your M.O., you are cogent on most things then try to slip something in that is totally sideways to spur people on.

 

[drop bear]

Okay. I think you are Way overthinking this and not certain but I think we are saying much the same thing. You are however much more absolute in your thinking. That is the exception not the rule for people. Hence the reason snake oil salesman exist and some even thrive. Whether you or I buy what they are selling is irrelevant, many people whether just less informed or whatever, will drink the Kool-Aid.
As the MA industry grew more and more herrings were added to the mix. The same is true of every industry I can think of.
Whatever reasoning method you want to use this is consistent.

The method is suspect. That is the point.

And the reason that is the point is because the suspect method is used to deliberately obscure the product.

In religion as in martial arts.

So when I say.

"Hey cuthulu show yourself and prove your magnificence"

Cuthulu will not appear. Instead there will be a bunch of suspicious method telling me that I am looking for the wrong thing. That I don't understand the subject. And so on.

There is an Infinite amount of bullcrap there is only a limited amount of truth.

Without looking at the method bullcrap wins every time.

 

[Steve]

Well, Cthulhu is so far beyond the capacity of your mortal mind to comprehend that to even glimpse it's presence would surely drive you mad. So, I mean, there is that.

 

[Steve]

Fair enough; the feeling is mutual. All I have done is ask a few questions and for whatever reason you fire back with this? Bad form. What did I say/ask that was remotely offensive? I was just asking for clarification.
FWIW, I was with you until the last couple sentences. But this is your M.O., you are cogent on most things then try to slip something in that is totally sideways to spur people on.

So then deism and xtianity are mutually inclusive? Do you have an opinion or thought on the subject at hand?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Can we please not summon the old ones? Im sure this thread has enough issues without bringing them into the mortal realm.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

I don't worship my instructor instead i thank them for inspiring me and for giving me the knowlddge and the opportunity to train with them

In my opinion instructor do the same with their student if they are doing great like this family who are black belt they get complimented a lot that doesn't mean their worshiping them

 

[dvcochran]

So then deism and xtianity are mutually inclusive? Do you have an opinion or thought on the subject at hand?

I posted the definitions I found on the web. I do not think the are mutually Exclusive but understand that many people do not think they are one and the same.

 

[dvcochran]

The method is suspect. That is the point.

And the reason that is the point is because the suspect method is used to deliberately obscure the product.

In religion as in martial arts.

So when I say.

"Hey cuthulu show yourself and prove your magnificence"

Cuthulu will not appear. Instead there will be a bunch of suspicious method telling me that I am looking for the wrong thing. That I don't understand the subject. And so on.

There is an Infinite amount of bullcrap there is only a limited amount of truth.

Without looking at the method bullcrap wins every time.

Fully agree, but isn't there something you take as truth without a being able to see, feel, smell, etc....? As an example, I am a EE and tried for years to physically see electricity. We can see the effects of electricity but we cannot actually see it. We have known about it for 141 years but in reality all in theory. But I know it exist.

I am not an overtly religious Christina but do believe in a creator. Can I see him? Of course not. Does that hugely hang me up? Naa. I am a pretty educated guy and all I know is I have seen and been a part of enough that is straight up unexplainable to write it all off as chance.

But back to the OP, I hope All the mysticism crap has been debunk in MA's by now.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't worship my instructor instead i thank them for inspiring me and for giving me the knowlddge and the opportunity to train with them

In my opinion instructor do the same with their student if they are doing great like this family who are black belt they get complimented a lot that doesn't mean their worshiping them

It is sad that a few bad instructors has tainted the 'instructor' idea for many. A good teacher who is really passionate about their job can be looked at with high regard. But start talking about how great a MA instructor is and people immediately think they are being worshipped. Just wrong.

 

[Steve]

I posted the definitions I found on the web. I do not think the are mutually Exclusive but understand that many people do not think they are one and the same.

Here's a quick flow chart to see if we can find some common ground:

1: Do you believe that Jesus is God and part of the holy trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost? If yes, go to 2. If no, go to 3.
2: You are not a Deist.
3: You are not a Christian.

I mean, it's really that simple.

 

[Steve]

Fully agree, but isn't there something you take as truth without a being able to see, feel, smell, etc....? As an example, I am a EE and tried for years to physically see electricity. We can see the effects of electricity but we cannot actually see it. We have known about it for 141 years but in reality all in theory. But I know it exist.

I am not an overtly religious Christina but do believe in a creator. Can I see him? Of course not. Does that hugely hang me up? Naa. I am a pretty educated guy and all I know is I have seen and been a part of enough that is straight up unexplainable to write it all off as chance.

But back to the OP, I hope All the mysticism crap has been debunk in MA's by now.

Unexplained does not necessarily equal unexplainable. And unexplainable does not necessarily equal intentional.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here's a quick flow chart to see if we can find some common ground:

1: Do you believe that Jesus is God and part of the holy trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost? If yes, go to 2. If no, go to 3.
2: You are not a Deist.
3: You are not a Christian.

I mean, it's really that simple.

Not all Christians subscribe to trinitarianism.

 

[Steve]

Not all Christians subscribe to trinitarianism.

It's an if/then statement. As I said earlier, if you don't think Jesus was god, don't believe in miracles, etc, but still call yourself a Christian, then sure. There's a point where if you believe God split and Jesus wasn't his son, are you actually still Christian?

 

[drop bear]

Unexplained does not necessarily equal unexplainable. And unexplainable does not necessarily equal intentional.

Coincidentally came across this.

The old. I don't know equals God argument.

 

[Steve]

Not all Christians subscribe to trinitarianism.

It's an if/then statement. As I said earlier, if you don't think Jesus was god, don't believe in miracles, etc, but still call yourself a Christian, then sure. There's a point where if you believe God split and Jesus wasn't his son, are you actually still Christian?

Was thinking about this and want to rephrase this a bit. Maybe it will help if I say it this way. There are all kinds of unlikely combinations. There are christian jews, for example. Christian Buddhists. So, could there be a Christian Deist? Possibly, if that person was willing to let go of some beliefs that are often considered core christian beliefs. I've listed what I think are the most obvious ones several times.

1. Deists don't necessarily believe in a theistic god at all.
2. Some might, but either way, the idea is that God or some supernatural being created everything and then left for some reason. Could have died, could have lost interest, who knows? I'm not a Christian, but we hear a lot about how God is eternal, so dead is right out. We hear a lot from them about how God exerts influence over their lives, and they pray to him actively, so this would seem to be a significant hiccup. Imagine Christians not praying, because they believe that God isn't listening.
3. The idea of God speaking through people through visions, etc, and that the bible is the literal word of god would be out, too. The burning bush, the writing of the new testament, the miracles outlined in the Bible (water into wine, walking on water, healing the sick, etc) didn't happen. Catholics are certainly out on this alone, and I would think this would cross out (no pun intended) pretty much all the rest, too. I mean, so far, God is either dead or a deadbeat parent who took off with another family, and all those miracles and visions in the Bible are fiction.
4. Jesus isn't God or even the son of God. Well, I mean, if you stretch that to suggest we are all sons of God or something like that, sure. But Jesus wasn't/isn't divine. That seems to be the biggest thing that distinguishes christianity from Islam or Judaism.

So, sure, if you believe Jesus was just a guy doing good things, and also that God is dead or took off, and also that miracles don't happen, and you still consider yourself a christian, you might also be a deist.

TL;DR: Are they mutually exclusive? Well, not technically, because you can always change the definition of Christianity by shedding fundamental tenets of the religion. Jesus isn't god, etc. I'm curious, though, whether any orthodox Christians would still consider you to be a Christian if you did so.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Was thinking about this and want to rephrase this a bit. Maybe it will help if I say it this way. There are all kinds of unlikely combinations. There are christian jews, for example. Christian Buddhists. So, could there be a Christian Deist? Possibly, if that person was willing to let go of some beliefs that are often considered core christian beliefs. I've listed what I think are the most obvious ones several times.

1. Deists don't necessarily believe in a theistic god at all.
2. Some might, but either way, the idea is that God or some supernatural being created everything and then left for some reason. Could have died, could have lost interest, who knows? I'm not a Christian, but we hear a lot about how God is eternal, so dead is right out. We hear a lot from them about how God exerts influence over their lives, and they pray to him actively, so this would seem to be a significant hiccup. Imagine Christians not praying, because they believe that God isn't listening.
3. The idea of God speaking through people through visions, etc, and that the bible is the literal word of god would be out, too. The burning bush, the writing of the new testament, the miracles outlined in the Bible (water into wine, walking on water, healing the sick, etc) didn't happen. Catholics are certainly out on this alone, and I would think this would cross out (no pun intended) pretty much all the rest, too. I mean, so far, God is either dead or a deadbeat parent who took off with another family, and all those miracles and visions in the Bible are fiction.
4. Jesus isn't God or even the son of God. Well, I mean, if you stretch that to suggest we are all sons of God or something like that, sure. But Jesus wasn't/isn't divine. That seems to be the biggest thing that distinguishes christianity from Islam or Judaism. So, sure, if you believe Jesus was just a guy doing good things, and also that God is dead or took off, and also that miracles don't happen, and you still consider yourself a christian, you might also be a deist.

TL;DR: Are they mutually exclusive? Well, not technically, because you can always change the definition of Christianity by shedding fundamental tenets of the religion. Jesus isn't god, etc. I'm curious, though, whether any orthodox Christians would still consider you to be a Christian if you did so.

To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting much of an overlap between Deism and Christianity. I was just pointing out that trinitarianism (the doctrine that God is composed of 3 coequal persons (Father, Son I.e. Jesus, and the Holy Ghost) who are distinct yet of one essence), is not a universal feature of Christian denominations. Exceptions include Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), Unitarians, and more.

 

[Steve]

Coincidentally came across this.

The old. I don't know equals God argument.

The argument for intelligent design is usually referred to as the teleological argument for god and, interesting, it predates Christianity by a lot. But the christian version of the argument is associated with Thomas Aquinas (IIRC). There are obviously some holes in the logic here. The most glaring is that the argument predates Christianity.

there are counter arguments, as well. I'm in no way a mathematician, but I did read a pretty interesting counterargument from a biological perspective called The Blind Watchmaker. It's probably pretty dated by now (I read it like 30 years ago), but as I recall, it was pretty good.

 

[Steve]

To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting much of an overlap between Deism and Christianity. I was just pointing out that trinitarianism (the doctrine that God is composed of 3 coequal persons (Father, Son I.e. Jesus, and the Holy Ghost) who are distinct yet of one essence), is not a universal feature of Christian denominations. Exceptions include Christian Scientists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), Unitarians, and more.

No problem. I get it. I was trying to abbreviate the flowchart to make it as simple as possible.

As an aside, I don't think the Latter Day Saints refer to themselves as Mormons anymore.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As an aside, I don't think the Latter Day Saints refer to themselves as Mormons anymore.

Hmm, I see that In 2018 the church president asked members and others to cease use of informal terms like “LDS”, “Mormon”, and “Mormonism” in favor of the full official church name. I wonder how consistently that request is being followed.