Martial Arts Is Not Religion, An Instructor Is Not A God

[dvcochran]

I agree with your assertion that none of us gets to determine whether MA is a religion to someone. I disagree with the implicit premise that for MA to provide a moral compass and help with existential crisis, one needs religion. Philosophy fills that niche quite nicely, too.

Agree, but if the instructor is qualified and fills the bill I see nothing wrong with it. But it should stay Far away from any kind or worship.

 

[Steve]

There are a few examples of folks who are brainwashing students

 

[Flying Crane]

The teacher-students relation is a good thing. Some good tradition such as "侠 (Xia) - knight spirit" can be passed down from generation to generation this way.

I still remember when I was young, one day my long fist teacher said to all his students, "If you don't have a good reason and get into a fight, I'll beat you up after that. Also, if you have a good reason but you don't get into a fight, I'll still beat you up after that."

His 1st part is just "don't cause problem". His 2nd part was deeply rooted into my mind and that is willing to:

- fight and protect my love one,
- help the weak to fight against the strong,
- help the good to fight against the evil,
- maintain world peace,
- save the human civilization.
- ...

I believe, even in the normal school education, a normal school teacher will never teach me "侠 (Xia) - knight spirit" . IMO, MA teacher is an excellent bridge between the school teacher and the parents. He can fill in the missing part such as "侠 (Xia) - knight spirit" .

Oh, if Wonder Woman was my Sifu...

 

[PhotonGuy]

Obviously, you're not an instructor

Not a head instructor but I've been an assistant instructor.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I've yet to see one worshipped as a god, so I suspect there's some hyperbole involved in your statement.

On the contrary, in post #251 of this other thread you say otherwise, here is the link. Asking To Test

Do you mean to refer to those who are seen as the sole authority and always right, by dint of being "The Instructor", and are never to be questioned?

An instructor is a human being and as such they're not "always right" as human beings make mistakes. An instructor should be respected but not assumed to be "always right"

 

[PhotonGuy]

On a more serious note, my first instructor for 10 years or so was more than just a sensei. His early core students were middle and high school, then college guys, many without dads. The dojo was a special place for us and besides being Sensei, he was like the cool uncle. We kind of grew up under his wing. He was physically very formidable, yet humble and soft spoken, very approachable, comfortable with his power, not having to flaunt it. He was one of the karate pioneers in Southern California, respected by high ranking peers.

He taught us things other than just karate. A great role model in many respects. He taught us yin and yang, how to score with women (at the time, his most important lessons), basic business practices, how to live simply and in balanced harmony...but he never preached. He had our respect, but not the military kind. It was the kind freely given just because it came naturally. His ego did not demand, or even ask for it.

He was no god, but a special man and friend to us, which was even better - god never helped me get to third base. R I P, Sensei.

Sounds a bit like a real life version of Mr. Miyagi, the kind of instructor I would love to have.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Unfortunately, I have. This was some time ago at a few tournaments. Slick, Korean woman from Vermont who I only saw in all white outfits.

She would stand on a table with fifty to seventy of her brainwashed minions sitting on the floor around her while she preached to them. They would oss and bow like bobble heads, place their foreheads to the floor and oss some more.

Truly bizarre. They only came to a couple tournaments and never placed anywhere but last, I guess that’s why they stopped coming. I’ll see if I can dig up who she is and let you know.

If I came across her I would tell her this, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" Exodus 20.

 

[PhotonGuy]

i will take that as your opinion and disagree with the connotation of you being the universal arbiter of morality here. martial arts has been mixed with religion for a long time. i would guess all traditional Okinawan dojo have a Kamidana and clap two times to wake the spirits. there are also dojo that have a Butsudan, or Buddhist alter of sorts. what about the myth of martial arts originating from Bodhidharma to keep the monks awake during meditation and for health? there is also the complex philosophical structure of a warrior who can kill needing the grounding balance of morality to temper and justify the taking of life. how does a warrior deal with their own existential issue of facing death at every moment? war is hell, are you saying soldiers dont need a God when facing their inevitable death?
i would not be so fast to try and separate a religious framework and moral underpinning from a warrior art that teaches violence. maybe MMA or sport doesnt need religion but traditional warrior arts ,,,,,,well,,i would think twice about that. i would imagine there are countless soldiers who pray to Jesus before jumping into the fray of combat. what makes the east so different and morally repugnant to you?

however, instructors are not Gods,, true. but then, most westerners cannot comprehend the differences between eastern and western religion. the concept of a God in the sky who is all knowing and powerful was very strange to most eastern cultures for most of humanity. i would caution people on their own bias of looking at other cultures through the tinted lens of their own western religious structures.

Alright, so some religions have borrowed the martial arts and used it in some of their religious practices. That doesn't mean that just because Im learning a martial art that Im necessarily also practicing some religion.

simple answer is ,,, if you dont like the dojo dont join there. people tend to find exactly what they are looking for.

I pretty much pointed that out in my first post, that if an instructor expects me to take up some religion such as where Im supposed to worship the instructor as if they're a god, I will run to the nearest exit.

 

[_Simon_]

Agree, but if the instructor is qualified and fills the bill I see nothing wrong with it. But it should stay Far away from any kind or worship.

Yeah that's it. Putting anyone on a pedestal in general is not a great idea. There's glamourising, and then there's simple respect and willingness to learn from one has knowledge and skills you admire. Biiiig differencio!

 

[hoshin1600]

i will state again that most of the things people are against have more to do with abuse of power rather than a philosophical or religious doctrine. being a charlatan is something all together different. the other issue as Photonguy brought up is that some traditional MA practices are in direct conflict with many religious beliefs, but this is nothing new we have all discussed the bowing thing and all.
i get what Photon guy is saying but i think its a little misguided. i myself have never come across a MA school that was a cult. thats not to say they dont exist. but for sure its the exception.
more common is an example of my case, i was interested in Zen and i purposefully went out and sought a school that had connections to a legit lineage of Zen. i didnt know of any other way to find out about Zen other then moving to Japan or a Zen temple somewhere in the US.
i think for the longest time people thought Asian arts were cool exactly for the cultural experience which included the Asian religious undertones that most didnt even know where there. western society has a separation of church and state but the Asian cultures cant do that. the religion of the geographic area is fused into the culture. without Buddhism Thai culture would not exist. without Shinto Japanese culture wouldnt exist and the same for Confusionism and Daoism in China. although China has done its best to eradicate its past. so yeah sure :"A culture" would exist but it would be something all together different and so would the art form.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are a few examples of folks who are brainwashing students

I was going to say something smart. Like, "Nah you are wrong. It works for me. I've done it." then 1:07 into the video I was like this is really bad and changed my mine lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are a few examples of folks who are brainwashing students

I'll take the challenge. This is my weapon

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On the contrary, in post #251 of this other thread you say otherwise, here is the link. Asking To Test

There's an entire chasm between what I wrote and someone being worshipped as a god.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I came across her I would tell her this, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" Exodus 20.

Entirely possible she wouldn't care about that quote. Many of us don't.

 

[PhotonGuy]

i will state again that most of the things people are against have more to do with abuse of power rather than a philosophical or religious doctrine. being a charlatan is something all together different. the other issue as Photonguy brought up is that some traditional MA practices are in direct conflict with many religious beliefs, but this is nothing new we have all discussed the bowing thing and all.

Bowing in the martial arts is just like a handshake outside the world of martial arts, just because you bow to somebody doesn't mean you worship them any more than a handshake means worship.

As for traditional MA practices coming in conflict with religious beliefs that depends. I will say this much though, any sensei who demands to be worshipped as if they're a god, any sensei who makes their martial art a religion where they're the god, that will probably come into conflict with just about any religious belief outside that school.

i get what Photon guy is saying but i think its a little misguided. i myself have never come across a MA school that was a cult. thats not to say they dont exist. but for sure its the exception.

My main point is that a sensei should not be worshipped as if they're a god and any MA school where the sensei demands to be worshipped as a god is definitely a cult, I would avoid such schools but that's just me.

more common is an example of my case, i was interested in Zen and i purposefully went out and sought a school that had connections to a legit lineage of Zen.

From what I know about Zen its a philosophy not a religion. An eastern religion would be something such as Shintoism which is a religion from Japan or Hinduism if we're talking about India.

i didnt know of any other way to find out about Zen other then moving to Japan or a Zen temple somewhere in the US.

You could probably learn about Zen by doing your own research here in the USA, you could learn about it on the internet, you could read books about it, you could even go to classes about it without having to go to a temple in Japan.

i think for the longest time people thought Asian arts were cool exactly for the cultural experience which included the Asian religious undertones that most didnt even know where there.

From my own experience I will say this, one of the best ways that I found to learn about a culture is to learn the language. When you learn the primary language spoken in a country in doing so you learn all about the country and its culture. That was my experience when I was learning German in High School.

western society has a separation of church and state but the Asian cultures cant do that. the religion of the geographic area is fused into the culture. without Buddhism Thai culture would not exist. without Shinto Japanese culture wouldnt exist and the same for Confusionism and Daoism in China. although China has done its best to eradicate its past. so yeah sure :"A culture" would exist but it would be something all together different and so would the art form.

Technically the USA does have a separation of church and state but the USA is a country founded on Christian principles so Christianity has had and continues to have a big influence on the culture of the USA. Without Christianity I would say the culture of the USA would be very different.

 

[Graywalker]

My students asked me about religion in the martial arts and what philosophy should go with training.

I simply told them, "What you believe out there, is up to you, in here there is only one requirement, that is to believe in yourself'

There are 1000's of religions that teach you to believe in something else, I am more concerned with the one that gets a person to believe in themselves.

But, a lot does depend on the instructor.

 

[Steve]

Bowing in the martial arts is just like a handshake outside the world of martial arts, just because you bow to somebody doesn't mean you worship them any more than a handshake means worship.

As for traditional MA practices coming in conflict with religious beliefs that depends. I will say this much though, any sensei who demands to be worshipped as if they're a god, any sensei who makes their martial art a religion where they're the god, that will probably come into conflict with just about any religious belief outside that school.


My main point is that a sensei should not be worshipped as if they're a god and any MA school where the sensei demands to be worshipped as a god is definitely a cult, I would avoid such schools but that's just me.


From what I know about Zen its a philosophy not a religion. An eastern religion would be something such as Shintoism which is a religion from Japan or Hinduism if we're talking about India.


You could probably learn about Zen by doing your own research here in the USA, you could learn about it on the internet, you could read books about it, you could even go to classes about it without having to go to a temple in Japan.


From my own experience I will say this, one of the best ways that I found to learn about a culture is to learn the language. When you learn the primary language spoken in a country in doing so you learn all about the country and its culture. That was my experience when I was learning German in High School.


Technically the USA does have a separation of church and state but the USA is a country founded on Christian principles so Christianity has had and continues to have a big influence on the culture of the USA. Without Christianity I would say the culture of the USA would be very different.

While xtianity certainly has a greater than warranted influence on our country now, many of the founding fathers were actually Deists.

The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity

 

[dvcochran]

While xtianity certainly has a greater than warranted influence on our country now, many of the founding fathers were actually Deists.

The Founding Fathers, Deism, and Christianity

You think they are mutually exclusive?

 

[Steve]

You think they are mutually exclusive?

I do. It's not a particular area of interest. But yes.

 

[Headhunter]

Agreed to many instructors that I’ve seen expect their students to do absolutely Anything for them. I’m certain some I’ve met would jump off a cliff if they got told to. I will never do that. I will be respectful in class and do as asked inside the school but outside of it I’m my own person. Outside the club the instructor is no better than me and no higher than me. I don’t call them sir or Sensei or whatever outside of a class setting I call them their name. They’re not gods they’re humans and if they want me to treat them like gods that’s not going to happen from me