dvcochran
Grandmaster
I have to ask why. It seems to be of enough interest for you to bring them both up in the same sentence.
Martial Arts Is Not Religion, An Instructor Is Not A God
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Why what?
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Why you think they are exclusive?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
because they're different. I'm honestly not sure what you're asking.
Edit: when I say deism, are we thinking about the same thing?
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Friendly reminder that politics are not allowed to be discussed to an extent: You're free to discuss history/governments, but actual political discussion is not allowed. And that while you can discuss religion as much as you like, there is no religion bashing allowed on this forum.
No one's violated either of those from what I can tell, just putting in a reminder in case any posters wanted to turn the conversation in either direction.
No one's violated either of those from what I can tell, just putting in a reminder in case any posters wanted to turn the conversation in either direction.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
it would help if @dvcochran would stop speaking in code.
I'm actually a bit confused about what both of you are talking about, or where either of you are headed with the conversation. Which is the main reason I posted the reminder.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Me too.
D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
To be fair the duality in this slightly annoys and amuses me sometimes. I swear there are people who act like you have commited the biggest sin for asking a teacher "why". And this is in western countries. (you know ones where you get a education thats meant to teach you to be critical etc and fall into logical fallacy rabbit holes, belive people at face value, or question people) And on the other hand there are the people who question everything.
The criteria listed for the above is pretty much open to eb exploited and usually ends up like that anyway, hence the education and skepticism to prevent it and exploitation. The model presented in the OP requires a lot of trust in that person and that person to not be running a scam, would you trust that in the modern day? Probably not.
The criteria listed for the above is pretty much open to eb exploited and usually ends up like that anyway, hence the education and skepticism to prevent it and exploitation. The model presented in the OP requires a lot of trust in that person and that person to not be running a scam, would you trust that in the modern day? Probably not.
D
Deleted member 39746
Guest
Its not even a science at this point, its closer to a art form, i forget the type it would fall under best, a form of dance may be more apt.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I am confused as to why each of you are confused. I asked a simple question; "are the two terms mutually exclusive". The answer given was 'yes'. I then asked 'why'. Then everything started getting evasive. Then it was inferred that I was 'speaking in code'. This is where it is getting confusing for me. I am not sure how I could have been more clear.
xtianity is barely a known word even in slang dictionaries. I get the inference so if anyone is speaking in code, well.....
xtian
meaning christian
the x comes from latin and is the latin letter for christ, i.e. x-tian means christ-tian or christian
also xmas meaning christ-mas
de·ism
/ˈdēˌizəm,ˈdāˌizəm/
noun
- belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.
Where are you guys trying to go with this?
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I would say some of the more modern systems rely more on science as a teaching tool or method. But physical science applied to human performance is a pretty new science in the grand scheme. I imagine many of today's ideas and theories of making power were not even around in the early MA years. Even in areas where the mechanics are still done exactly the same way today, the thinking and expression was likely quite different back then.
I suspect the thought process of intent changed the dynamics of learning MA's quite a lot.
For example; "This (strike/kick/arm bar/choke/etc...you pick) is used to disable your attacker so that you can finish the kill". versus "This (strike/kick/arm bar/choke/etc...you pick) is used to disable your opponent so you can pin them and win the match".
Same movement, totally different intent, totally different mentality. Simply said, things were presented with much more 'Martial' intent.
So, to me we are still crossing the line(s) of understanding and/or comprehension. Many martial arts styles apply a strong mental and/or philosophical component in their teaching. To me this is where some people may translate it into a 'religion' category. I feel it is esoteric when you drill down far enough. The people who dig deep and really understand their MA ('s) also understand it is not a religion, and that in some eastern cultures the two were (keyword) inclusive. That is not to imply the modern practitioner Has to follow the religious overlap. These should be kept separate IMHO.
Being really passionate about your martial art should not automatically be misconstrued as practicing a religion. Competing at a high level is sometimes called a 'religion' because of the mental and physical investment. I fully get what people mean when they say this but I feel it is a poor twisting of the meaning of the word religion.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think it starts with the fact that I don't trust you as far as I can spit.
Based on what I've read, Deism doesn't necessarily even refer to the same theistic deity as xtianity, Islam, or Judaism. While it may refer to the theistic god, it could also be something more like Mother Nature or Providence. The salient point is that some supernatural being made everything and then... lost interest, died, left, moved on to create other things... who knows? So, yes. To answer your question, orthodox xtianity and deism are mutually exclusive. Unless you think god is dead, gone, disinterested, or otherwise has moved on, that there are no miracles, visions are fake, and Jesus was just a dude who died on a cross. I mean, if you believe all that, are you still a xtian? I'll leave that to you to decide.
Like I said, I was confused on both ends. Part of that was that I wasn't sure what was being asked is mutually exclusive. That's why I added in the reminder-just to be safe. Carry on with your discussion.
I don't think anyone should be insulting to each other. I don't think "trusting" anyone has any place here. We don't know each other other than what we read in print on a forum of a pretty crazy subject.
As for religion....there's probably as many differences between what people here believe as there are in what they believe about Martial Arts. Sometimes, that's a scary thought to me.
Everyone take a breath, chill, hug your dog.
As for religion....there's probably as many differences between what people here believe as there are in what they believe about Martial Arts. Sometimes, that's a scary thought to me.
Everyone take a breath, chill, hug your dog.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think you guys have managed to confuse me more. The OP said something about xtianity, separation of church and state, and the USA. I made what I thought was a throwaway comment about how some of the founding fathers were actually deists (which is true). If you guys aren't interested in deism, I get it. It's really not that interesting. As I said earlier, I'm not even that interested in the topic.
Just a quick add regarding trust. Buka, I disagree with you on trust and how it relates to a forum like that. Take this as a case in point. Clearly, you guys don't trust us to interact, and maybe that's for good reason, I don't know. But I don't think anyone's done anything objectionable, and yet you're acting like we're at DEFCON 4. Trust is pretty important. It's okay to not trust everyone. Smart not to, in some cases.
And to bring this back to the topic at hand, if folks were a little more conscious of who they should and shouldn't trust, we might have less issues with shifty martial artists.
Just a quick add regarding trust. Buka, I disagree with you on trust and how it relates to a forum like that. Take this as a case in point. Clearly, you guys don't trust us to interact, and maybe that's for good reason, I don't know. But I don't think anyone's done anything objectionable, and yet you're acting like we're at DEFCON 4. Trust is pretty important. It's okay to not trust everyone. Smart not to, in some cases.
And to bring this back to the topic at hand, if folks were a little more conscious of who they should and shouldn't trust, we might have less issues with shifty martial artists.
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drop bear
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Modern like Aristotle?
So as an example here is Richard Dawkins explaining the celestial tea cup.
Now this is usually an argument aimed at theology. But is very relevant to martial arts.
And basically if you can't show it and replicate it you can't effectively prove it exists.
This is regardless as to how convincing your sales pitch is. So even though not everything is on you tube, or it worked for me, or the astronaut cowboys used it or it is not designed for any circumstances that seem to be recorded or any of these theological style excuses that get made. They don't count for evidence of existence.
And they are the styles that are more likely to fail under testing.
Nearly all arguments about the street pretty much fall in to this category.
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drop bear
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And let's look at this as a comparison. Between the street validating self defense and miracles validating the existence of Cuthulu.
People win encounters on the street. And miracles happen. But to justify a cause we need to find a consistency and a causation. Not just a correlation.
Otherwise the argument just isn't very good.
Obviously the hand of cuthulu acted here. Saving his meal for later.
People win encounters on the street. And miracles happen. But to justify a cause we need to find a consistency and a causation. Not just a correlation.
Otherwise the argument just isn't very good.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Okay. I think you are Way overthinking this and not certain but I think we are saying much the same thing. You are however much more absolute in your thinking. That is the exception not the rule for people. Hence the reason snake oil salesman exist and some even thrive. Whether you or I buy what they are selling is irrelevant, many people whether just less informed or whatever, will drink the Kool-Aid.
As the MA industry grew more and more herrings were added to the mix. The same is true of every industry I can think of.
Whatever reasoning method you want to use this is consistent.
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