Martial Arts Extinction

[Chris Parker]

On a flight to LA he heard a voice from heaven instructing him to resurrect the Ryu, as he was the first worthy inheritor in hundreds of years, and it was time for the art to live again. When Michael Coleman picked him up at the airport, he had tears in his eyes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

On a flight to LA he heard a voice from heaven instructing him to resurrect the Ryu, as he was the first worthy inheritor in hundreds of years, and it was time for the art to live again. When Michael Coleman picked him up at the airport, he had tears in his eyes.

Heaven must be very disappointed that he has allowed the ryu to die again.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It occurs to me that there is an analogy to be made between the development/ evolution/ extinction of martial arts systems and the same processes that occur in folk music.

Any song that exists was originally written by a specific person in a specific form. As the years go by, the following processes can occur:

The composer performs the song differently at different times, altering elements of the melody, the lyrics, or the style.
New musicians learn the song, but remember it slightly differently so that the melody and/or the lyrics evolve in different ways over generations.
New musicians borrow elements of one song and insert them into another.
New musicians make the deliberate decision to rewrite a song, altering the lyrics or the melody or the style or the instrumentation.

As a result, you can look around the world of folk music and find:

Songs that have the same melody but completely different lyrics.
Songs that have the same (more or less) lyrics, but different melodies.
Songs that tell the same story, but with the lyrics substantially changed around.
Individual lyrics or melodic phrases which have been transplanted into multiple songs which are otherwise completely different.
The same song performed in completely different styles - altering the final sound as drastically as completely changing the lyrics or melody.

It seems to me that you can find plenty of examples along these same lines in the martial arts. (I suppose in this analogy, the koryu folks are the equivalent of ensembles performing classical repetoire playing period instruments and using period tunings.)

From this perspective, whether you consider a given song or martial art to be extinct probably depends on your definitions. Is a particular song "extinct" if no one know exactly what the original melody was? What about if the lyrics to the chorus have been transplanted into half a dozen other songs over the years? What if there are two different melodies which are commonly used for the song and no one knows which (if either) was the original?

Just a thought. My brain is wandering in odd directions this morning.

 

[frank raud]

It occurs to me that there is an analogy to be made between the development/ evolution/ extinction of martial arts systems and the same processes that occur in folk music.

Any song that exists was originally written by a specific person in a specific form. As the years go by, the following processes can occur:

The composer performs the song differently at different times, altering elements of the melody, the lyrics, or the style.
New musicians learn the song, but remember it slightly differently so that the melody and/or the lyrics evolve in different ways over generations.
New musicians borrow elements of one song and insert them into another.
New musicians make the deliberate decision to rewrite a song, altering the lyrics or the melody or the style or the instrumentation.

As a result, you can look around the world of folk music and find:

Songs that have the same melody but completely different lyrics.
Songs that have the same (more or less) lyrics, but different melodies.
Songs that tell the same story, but with the lyrics substantially changed around.
Individual lyrics or melodic phrases which have been transplanted into multiple songs which are otherwise completely different.
The same song performed in completely different styles - altering the final sound as drastically as completely changing the lyrics or melody.

It seems to me that you can find plenty of examples along these same lines in the martial arts. (I suppose in this analogy, the koryu folks are the equivalent of ensembles performing classical repetoire playing period instruments and using period tunings.)

From this perspective, whether you consider a given song or martial art to be extinct probably depends on your definitions. Is a particular song "extinct" if no one know exactly what the original melody was? What about if the lyrics to the chorus have been transplanted into half a dozen other songs over the years? What if there are two different melodies which are commonly used for the song and no one knows which (if either) was the original?

Just a thought. My brain is wandering in odd directions this morning.

Tony, interesting comparison. I know within the blues, there have always been "floating verses", lyrics that pop up either as a single line or an entire stanza, in many songs and often in many different regional styles. You might compare these to the common techniques that are done essentially the same way in multiple arts, be it a punch or a kick. These are the cliched lyrics that everyone knows(I feel so bad, Blues coming down, Hard times, etc.)There are regional styles and artists whose every note has been studied and reproduced faithfully, there is plenty that have heavily influenced rock and roll, which sounds nothing like the original, but it is obvious what the root music is. There are also original artists, whose music has become standards, yet no one does it the way the original artist did the song.(Big Joe Williams being a prime example. Many version of Baby please dont go, but to my knowledge no one using a homemade 9 string guitar to attempt to reproduce Big Joe's sound).

I considered Big Joe's sound to have died with him, although his music lives on in different forms.

 

[puunui]

So you made an accusation, and when challenged, refuse to back it up? Nice.

If you consider not wanting to waste time on your games the same thing as the above, then yes, it is nice. Maybe you have a shelf or two of books, but everyone knows that you are a google and youtube guy. It's not a big secret. I use google and youtube too, we all do, just not to the extent that you go for it.

Maybe you should remember this next time you suggest such things, Glenn.

You really care about what others think, don't you?

 

[puunui]

Not sure who claimed it, and if they do claim it, then fine; that is between them and their members. But if there are no living practitioners, then the best you have is either reconstruction or appropriating the name to apply to something new.

There are groups in korea that have attempted to resurrect the martial arts shown in the muyedobotongji. I saw a demonstration once. I don't know if it was an accurate depiction though. But they looked like they worked hard on what they were doing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There are groups in korea that have attempted to resurrect the martial arts shown in the muyedobotongji. I saw a demonstration once. I don't know if it was an accurate depiction though. But they looked like they worked hard on what they were doing.

I would classify that as reconstruction, not resurrection. Though that is not a bad thing. I have great respect for anyone trying to painstakingly piece together a style from historical manuscripts and training manuals.

 

[Chris Parker]

If you consider not wanting to waste time on your games the same thing as the above, then yes, it is nice. Maybe you have a shelf or two of books, but everyone knows that you are a google and youtube guy. It's not a big secret. I use google and youtube too, we all do, just not to the extent that you go for it.

You really care about what others think, don't you?

No, not really Glenn... but I do care about being misrepresented, painted in an unflattering and inaccurate light, and having people (you, really) attempt to undermine my comments with baseless accusations when you can't actually argue against what I've said. You were provided an opportunity to either apologize, or back up your accusations publicly, and instead you gave a snide cop-out line. Personally, I think that says a fair amount about the way you conduct yourself.

I'd ask for an apology, but you really don't have the class for it.

 

[puunui]

No, not really Glenn... but I do care about being misrepresented, painted in an unflattering and inaccurate light, and having people (you, really) attempt to undermine my comments with baseless accusations when you can't actually argue against what I've said.

Is that what you really think, or is that what you wish us to believe? Funny you would accuse me of that, since that seems to be exactly what you do to me and others on MT. Check the mirror Parker Sensei.

You were provided an opportunity to either apologize, or back up your accusations publicly, and instead you gave a snide cop-out line. Personally, I think that says a fair amount about the way you conduct yourself. I'd ask for an apology, but you really don't have the class for it.

Apologize for what? Everyone seems to know the truth, except perhaps for you.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Maybe its time to take it to PM guys.